VideoGameJunkie Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 This is a question that can only be assumed, but to me turning down the Holy Ghost after receiving it, especially after having been endowed or temple sealed, and resigning from the church in apostasy sure seems like it would earn at least a ticket to spend time in Spirit Prison once someone dies. So should we feel even more sad for apostates because of the eternal ramifications? But if being an apostate doesn't earn you a ticket to Spirit Prison, then what do you have to do to go there? By the way, I know Spirit Prison is only a temporary place where souls go until final judgment, but it seems to me being an apostate is the only possible way someone could become a Son of Perdition as well.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 doctrine used to have it everyone goes ... unless 1. a three nephite 2. a translated being 3. born after the second coming
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Well now who goes? I know murderers, adulterers, whoremongers, and liars go, but it seems apostasy should be considered worse then telling some lies.
consiglieri Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 We will have to wait for the newest addition to the CHI to find out . . . 1
Jeanne Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Well now who goes? I know murderers, adulterers, whoremongers, and liars go, but it seems apostasy should be considered worse then telling some lies. You sound so anxious for me to go to prison! It was my understanding that it isn't really a prison of sorts but a waiting period and trial before judgement. I believe there are a lot of people like me who have left the church..but have not denied their spiritual experiences in the church. I just know that I had some very spiritual experiences which I attribute to my connection with the Holy Ghost. Outside the church, those feelings have still been with me. If I don't deny the comforter that has worked with me, where should I go? Sad..really, this whole conversation because in many ways I am a better person now.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 6 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Well now who goes? I know murderers, adulterers, whoremongers, and liars go, but it seems apostasy should be considered worse then telling some lies. It used to be said; That it was called Spirit Prison because one felt imprisoned without their bodies. Spirit Prison is composed of two sections ... Paradise and Hell Everyone upon dying goes there to await their resurrection. I don't know that I've ever heard of what qualifies one for hell, as this is all pre-judgment. I'm not clear on if those that never heard the Gospel go to hell, but the Paradise souls will be doing missionary work in hell. I've heard it said that "the period of this life" as far as second estate testing goes, covers the period from birth to resurrection, thus covering this Paradise/Hell period. Personal resurrection is after the judgment and then one inherits his/her level of deserved Glory ... or is dissolved back into the atomic most elements as tossed back into the intelligence and matter pools, to become available for new new spiritual birth to exalted heavenly parents. As far as apostates go, unless they received the second anointing and then rejected Christ they are good to go (kind of), otherwise it's the basic pools. Otherwise ... it might be worth considering here what I wrote and apologized to my adult married children for indoctrinating them into: I recently wrote an essay for my children, the following is extracted from that showing the choices I left my wife/children and my consequences for my apostasy from the Church Wife's choices: 1. Stay with me in hope that I will repent and we still make the 7th heaven. 2. Divorce me and find another worthy priesthood holder that will get her to the 7th heaven. 3. Stay with me for mortality and become another man’s wife after death a. If only wife, 3rd or 4th heaven based on the man’s worthiness b. If plural wife, 5th to 7th heaven based on who will take her. 4. Stay with me for mortality and decide to not become another man’s wife a. Relegated to 3rd heaven (servants to the higher heavens). Children's situation (items 1:1 from above list) 1. We are all together as a family in the 7th heaven 2. You become sealed to the other man and are all together as a family in the 7th heaven 3. You become sealed to the other man and are all together as a family a. In 3rd or 4th heaven just your mom. b. In 5th to 7th heaven lots of mothers 4. You will be with your mother, not as a family but co-servants to those in higher heavens. My consequences: 1. Separated for eternity from his mortal wife whom he loves 2. Separated for eternity from his children whom he loves. 3. Separated for eternity from his grandchildren whom he loves. 4. Resurrected but stripped of his reproductive organs. 5. Stripped of normal human sexual desires and left with the other sexless masses of the Terrestrial Kingdom
The Nehor Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 What we usually refer to as Spirit Prison (the on opposed to paradise) is hell. It is not a nice place.
The Nehor Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 If I read the Book of Mormon correctly everyone who has not been baptized and lived up to their baptismal covenant goes to prison. Unrepentant apostates would qualify.
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 It seems to me from scriptures that the unrepentant are the ones that should worry, and aren't most apostates unrepentant? Go to the ex mormon reddit sub and you'll see that side or people that post temple ceremonies revealing the signs and tokens online.
carbon dioxide Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Apostates go to the super max portion of the spirit prison
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 Well it raises the question who does wind up in spirit prison, or temporary hell as the scriptures say? Some people have to be there.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Video, I refer to myself somewhat sarcastically as an apostate. You are making a big leap using the words "apostate" and "unrepentant" as being synonymous. I notice Jeanne seems to have similar experiences as I do with "Our God". We are not unrepentant to our God. Scott recently pointed out that I don't make much sense most of the time. The snippet of a message to my children above was to the question/point of would a moral god so cruelly punish an individual for stepping away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? The message to my children was poignant as each are in the same situation as my wife and I, where one or the other might consider alternatives to the Church but even the thought scares them to death, just from the immediate threat of divorce etc. let-a-lone this destruction of their families eternally. The Mormon God tends to be a fear based god and I can think of nothing more terrifying than husband/wife, Parent/child being forced into such horrible options as I've itemized. I'm sorry that I don't know you well. Based on this thread and your repentance thread I don't know if you are just poking the hive a bit or if these issues are really troubling you. 2
Jeanne Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Salgare, I appreciate your post above. Like I said before, I feel I am a much better person now. In some ways, the church tells you what you can love and to what degree. The fear being that you should be careful who you associate with and the relationships you have. For me,, my love for others is something that is also a great learning experience. Getting away from a group think community has given me great genuine friendships and relationships. A lot of fear based concepts in doctrine have been replaced with better understanding of others..tolerance, patience and humility has come in place of being a chosen one. Repentance is a process of being a continuing learning, helpful and selfless person. I believe that God sees my struggle..not to be perfect but to be better today than I was yesterday. Quote
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 25 minutes ago, salgare said: Video, I refer to myself somewhat sarcastically as an apostate. You are making a big leap using the words "apostate" and "unrepentant" as being synonymous. I notice Jeanne seems to have similar experiences as I do with "Our God". We are not unrepentant to our God. Scott recently pointed out that I don't make much sense most of the time. The snippet of a message to my children above was to the question/point of would a moral god so cruelly punish an individual for stepping away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? The message to my children was poignant as each are in the same situation as my wife and I, where one or the other might consider alternatives to the Church but even the thought scares them to death, just from the immediate threat of divorce etc. let-a-lone this destruction of their families eternally. The Mormon God tends to be a fear based god and I can think of nothing more terrifying than husband/wife, Parent/child being forced into such horrible options as I've itemized. I'm sorry that I don't know you well. Based on this thread and your repentance thread I don't know if you are just poking the hive a bit or if these issues are really troubling you. These issues are really troubling me and I have lots of fears about the afterlife.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 hehe, sounds like you are in need of a new God. Post up in Tacenda's thread a bit about yourself ... age, married, kids, work, where you live type stuff, or feel free to pm me if you wish. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66693-introductions-for-older-members-and-new/
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 19 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Salgare, I appreciate your post above. Like I said before, I feel I am a much better person now. In some ways, the church tells you what you can love and to what degree. The fear being that you should be careful who you associate with and the relationships you have. For me,, my love for others is something that is also a great learning experience. Getting away from a group think community has given me great genuine friendships and relationships. A lot of fear based concepts in doctrine have been replaced with better understanding of others..tolerance, patience and humility has come in place of being a chosen one. Repentance is a process of being a continuing learning, helpful and selfless person. I believe that God sees my struggle..not to be perfect but to be better today than I was yesterday. Thanks Jeanne, us apostates have to stick together and battle this Class 5 Full-Roaming Vapor! 1
Calm Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 It is so often disorienting to me to have those who describe the LDS doctrines of God as fear based. For many investigators and believers in my experience, even the possibilty of eternal families is an overwhelming positive teaching of God's love and mercy. And yet others look at the same teaching as a threat of separation. 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 The main reason I fear the afterlife is because in June 2013 I had an 8 hour long psychosis episode where I thought I died and went to spirit prison because of my sins I hadn't confessed yet, and it was the scariest moment of my life. Since then I've had in my mind fear of punishment since in my mind I already lived 8 hours of it.
Ahab Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 6 minutes ago, Calm said: It is so often disorienting to me to have those who describe the LDS doctrines of God as fear based. For many investigators and believers in my experience, even the possibilty of eternal families is an overwhelming positive teaching of God's love and mercy. And yet others look at the same teaching as a threat of separation. It's good to keep in mind that there is opposition in all things, so what some see as good the opposing side sees as evil. Through the power of God we CAN be sealed to those we love forever, but the flip side is that it does take the power of God to make that happen so without the power of God it just ain't gonna happen.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 5 minutes ago, Calm said: It is so often disorienting to me to have those who describe the LDS doctrines of God as fear based. For many investigators and believers in my experience, even the possibilty of eternal families is an overwhelming positive teaching of God's love and mercy. And yet others look at the same teaching as a threat of separation. I don't know Calm, I'm not well studied on other Christian denominations, worse yet other non-Christian religions. Being BIC it was always a given that the Church was the only possibly provider of the possibility of eternal families. Upon limited other contacts, It seems others might take it for granted that heaven == being reunited with family. Have we gone to the cross roads and signed up a contract in blood for a shot at a house in a complex hierarchical heaven with a list of requirements as long as my arm and lots of fine print for a freely given gift of God ... Of course my son and daughter , your families await you. 1
Jeanne Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 19 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The main reason I fear the afterlife is because in June 2013 I had an 8 hour long psychosis episode where I thought I died and went to spirit prison because of my sins I hadn't confessed yet, and it was the scariest moment of my life. Since then I've had in my mind fear of punishment since in my mind I already lived 8 hours of it. Fear. Can't get away from it, Just before my husband passed away, his brother came to visit and to give him a blessing. Shane had been worried about what to expect so I talked to his brother before the blessing to give him a reassurance of the spirit world. It was the best gift I could give him. His life was a good one..but he didn't think good enough. My hope is that if God measures people by their pain, we will all be together again. He was at peace with the gift, Edited December 30, 2015 by Jeanne
Calm Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 I am BIC too, but my experience and perception is extremely different from yours. And to be honest, while I take no offense in anyone defining their own perception and description of their own beliefs, wherever they choose to walk, I find it highly inappropriate for those who are no longer believers by their own declaration to put a stamp on a particular belief that they used to have have and declare it the definitive doctrine of the "Mormon God" (or whatever belief community they have chosen to leave mentally, if not always officially) as if their own experience is the only valid one. 1
Ahab Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 I hope everyone who goes to spirit prison will consider preaching the gospel while they are there. We need all of the help we can get.
Jeanne Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 11 minutes ago, Calm said: I am BIC too, but my experience and perception is extremely different from yours. And to be honest, while I take no offense in anyone defining their own perception and description of their own beliefs, wherever they choose to walk, I find it highly inappropriate for those who are no longer believers by their own declaration to put a stamp on a particular belief that they used to have have and declare it the definitive doctrine of the "Mormon God" (or whatever belief community they have chosen to leave mentally, if not always officially) as if their own experience is the only valid one. I apologize., I realize my experience just belongs to me and it is not the only valid one. This I hope works both ways.
The Nehor Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: I hope everyone who goes to spirit prison will consider preaching the gospel while they are there. We need all of the help we can get. Are you volunteering?
Recommended Posts