stemelbow Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 My wife mentioned that the Salt Lake Tribune reported that this was the first time in recorded Church history that someone voted in the negative during General Conference. I rolled my eyes and told her it was done in the last few conferences. My adult and teen children chimed in and said "do they not know what a sustaining vote is for?" So I asked them what they thought it was for... They each responded with a variation on "it means we are willing to support the person who is called, in their calling." I replied, "Yes. It means we sustain the Lord's calling and will assist the person in it to the best of our ability, correct!" Then one of my daughters asked why they did it. I mentioned that it was a political statement by those who believe women should be ordained. She replied. Then why object to the leaders who were called. It has nothing to do with that. Yup! It's stacking the deck to suggest the LORD made the calling when people object, or refuse to sustain. As has happened in the past, perhaps not with apostles, per se, objections have come upon sustaining and they have come for good reason. One reason, it seems, we do the sustaining is to offer each the opportunity to confer with the LORD, if he/she so likes. It seems to me. As it has been, messages from the LORD don't come so clearly and concisely, most of the time.
jkwilliams Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 It's stacking the deck to suggest the LORD made the calling when people object, or refuse to sustain. As has happened in the past, perhaps not with apostles, per se, objections have come upon sustaining and they have come for good reason. One reason, it seems, we do the sustaining is to offer each the opportunity to confer with the LORD, if he/she so likes. It seems to me. As it has been, messages from the LORD don't come so clearly and concisely, most of the time. For some reason, I'm reminded of the Smith family factions who argued over which line had the right to be the Presiding Patriarch of the Church, which led to the position being left vacant for 10 years. Eventually, Joseph Fielding Smith (not the future church president) was called to the office, but he was released 3 years later upon acknowledging his homosexual activities. The position then went to his cousin, Eldred G. Smith (of the competing Smith line), whose later agitation for a more prominent role in the church led President Kimball to give him emeritus status. I suspect the process is much more complicated than the Lord simply telling the prophet whom to call. 1
Stone holm Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 It's stacking the deck to suggest the LORD made the calling when people object, or refuse to sustain. As has happened in the past, perhaps not with apostles, per se, objections have come upon sustaining and they have come for good reason.One reason, it seems, we do the sustaining is to offer each the opportunity to confer with the LORD, if he/she so likes. It seems to me. As it has been, messages from the LORD don't come so clearly and concisely, most of the time. In my opinion, this is not about conferring with the Lord about a person being called. If that were the case, it would be legitimate to object and then state I didn't get confirmation from the Lord on this person. That would not be considered a legitimate reason for objecting, only having serious dirt on someone is a legitimate reason for objecting. This in nowise is intended as a democratic ritual. If it were exclusively a symbolic gesture of support there would be no reason for an objecting vote. What it is, is in fact a muddle -- which is primarily used as a way of discouraging any form of dissent by giving rise to the "Well, remember you raised your hand to sustain and support..." When in fact there is tremendous pressure on members to raise their hands regardless. There are several organizations which use systems similar to this -- in my personal opinion, it is a ritual that has out lived its usefulness and shouldn't be associated with the Church anymore. But that is just me being me.
Storm Rider Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 I don't sense the pressure that you are alluding to in your previous post, Stone. In fact, I see no pressure at all - they ask and you either do or don't. When I am visiting a ward and they ask for a sustaining vote I feel no need to raise my hand. As I said before, sometimes I am too lazy or the sun is not right and I don't raise my hand in my own ward. If you personally feel pressure then that is something different. It is not pressure, but strange to see a contrary vote. If someone is voting in the negative then they better dang have a good reason for it. We did not see that at this conference or any other conference in any of our collective memories for General Conference. If we call ourselves disciples of Christ then we are each in the pursuit of his truth and his reality. We freely submit to him and his will. It is not about thinking we are equal to him and therefore we either determine to follow him or not. When it comes to God's kingdom on earth I sense that individual are happy to be a member of God's kingdom as long as they are king and get to make all the decisions. I think this is one of the things that Pharisees and Sadducees liked so much about the Law of Moses; they each could become a doctor of the law and argue to their heart's content about being right and then getting to make the choices for everyone in their synagogue and circle of influence. So few understand faith or even desire to have it. They are more concerned about what they think is right and they enjoy the rather smug feelings of being superior to others. This sense of superiority is common among the faithful and those who are not interested in faith, but have moved on to the far more noble cause of humanism....or anything else that is not the Church. If we want to be critical we each can find a soap box to stand on and holler about the wrongs of others. It is a far more demanding path to use that zeal of fault finding and narrow it so that all we see are our own faults exclusively. I think that is one of the signs of a true disciple.
Stone holm Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 I don't sense the pressure that you are alluding to in your previous post, Stone. In fact, I see no pressure at all - they ask and you either do or don't. When I am visiting a ward and they ask for a sustaining vote I feel no need to raise my hand. As I said before, sometimes I am too lazy or the sun is not right and I don't raise my hand in my own ward. If you personally feel pressure then that is something different. It is not pressure, but strange to see a contrary vote. If someone is voting in the negative then they better dang have a good reason for it. We did not see that at this conference or any other conference in any of our collective memories for General Conference. If we call ourselves disciples of Christ then we are each in the pursuit of his truth and his reality. We freely submit to him and his will. It is not about thinking we are equal to him and therefore we either determine to follow him or not. When it comes to God's kingdom on earth I sense that individual are happy to be a member of God's kingdom as long as they are king and get to make all the decisions. I think this is one of the things that Pharisees and Sadducees liked so much about the Law of Moses; they each could become a doctor of the law and argue to their heart's content about being right and then getting to make the choices for everyone in their synagogue and circle of influence. So few understand faith or even desire to have it. They are more concerned about what they think is right and they enjoy the rather smug feelings of being superior to others. This sense of superiority is common among the faithful and those who are not interested in faith, but have moved on to the far more noble cause of humanism....or anything else that is not the Church. If we want to be critical we each can find a soap box to stand on and holler about the wrongs of others. It is a far more demanding path to use that zeal of fault finding and narrow it so that all we see are our own faults exclusively. I think that is one of the signs of a true disciple. Am happy to be a member and make no decisions whatsoever with regards to the Church. The Church is very tolerant of people like me who are quite happy to make no decisions whatsoever with regards to the Church, this, however, does present some problems for people who indiscriminately accept callings. As then they are sometimes required to make decisions, which is why we have manuals, standards, and guidelines to help them avoid having to make decisions. For members who actually like making decisions and forming their own opinions, it is sometimes best if they avoid indiscriminately accepting callings -- it also makes sense for such people to avoid certain meetings in order to preserve peace, harmony and above all order in the Church. Better to engage in such avoidance, than to become a modern day Martin Luther. Peace Brother.
KevinG Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 then the question becomes why did God not tell His servants about the dirt or at least steer them clear of the person. Besides the power of having people openly commit to sustain someone (purpose #1 in my opinion) your question above is answered by the fact that our confessions are voluntary in the Church. The Bishop does not read our minds during interviews, he guides our repentance process through counsels.
Stone holm Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Besides the power of having people openly commit to sustain someone (purpose #1 in my opinion) your question above is answered by the fact that our confessions are voluntary in the Church. The Bishop does not read our minds during interviews, he guides our repentance process through counsels.True, but we are not talking about the repentance process here we are talking about the Lord issuing calls. For those who believe that the Lord micro manages the Church to the extent of actually saying who should be called to positions, then the whole mind reading argument goes out the window. When a Bishop, Stake President, or General Authority issues a call, he is not running something up the flag pole to see if everyone salutes. When you object to a call, you are in fact saying the call was not inspired. I don't know of any members who like to say that, I certainly don't so I avoid the votes.
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