Avatar4321 Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I was reading in 1 Nephi about how Christ will cast out demons and unclean spirits and a question occurred: What is the difference between a demon and an unclean spirit?It never occurs to me before that there could be a differences. Anyone have any thoughts?
Tsuzuki Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Key_of_Solomon
Flyonthewall Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I can only hazard a guess at the difference, but if I were forced to come up with a definition, I would say a "demon" is one that did not keep their first estate and followed Satan in the pre-mortal realm, and an "un-clean spirit" would be one that partook of mortality but still follows Satan after death.... or it could simply be two different ways to say the same thing. 1
Maedros Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I was reading in 1 Nephi about how Christ will cast out demons and unclean spirits and a question occurred: What is the difference between a demon and an unclean spirit?It never occurs to me before that there could be a differences. Anyone have any thoughts?I think that demons are the supporters of Satan who were actively engaged in the war in heaven - who actively opposed the plan and rallied followers to Satan; I believe that they are the ones who have power to possess and to appear and to interact with mankind - these are the real-deal devils who probably appear to the modern day robbers on Gadianton and instruct them in the will of Satan; they are his generals and lieutenants. Unclean spirits are also followers of Satan whose powers extend only to influence us by their unclean energy such as the forces that would tempt a person to view pornography or to use tobacco or to say an unkind word or any sin you can think of, I think that there is an unseen force/energy that tries to influence every sin - sometimes we can sense this in people: a sort of negative or unclean energy - it is likely that this is the influence of these unclean spirits. Unclean spirits are the ones we all deal with on a daily basis.
Tsuzuki Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I think that demons are the supporters of Satan who were actively engaged in the war in heaven - who actively opposed the plan and rallied followers to Satan; I believe that they are the ones who have power to possess and to appear and to interact with mankind - these are the real-deal devils who probably appear to the modern day robbers on Gadianton and instruct them in the will of Satan; they are his generals and lieutenants.You have it the other way around. We instruct them to do our wills. Have you even read the Lesser Key of Solomon? http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/lks/index.htm
Tsuzuki Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 As a side note, I have this cool t-shirt. http://teespring.com/goetia#pid=2&cid=2397 "Gotta Call Em All Goetia TeeThe Gotta Call Em All tshirt has the seals of the 72 lesser spirits of solomon on the back of the shirt as well as the magick triangle. The front shows Solomons Pentacle over the center of the chest.Grab this unique garb for anyone who dares to tread the path of the lesser keys :)"
Maedros Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I read You have it the other way around. We instruct them to do our wills. Have you even read the Lesser Key of Solomon? http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/lks/index.htmI read about it on the wikipedia link you posted but its too confusing - I am not too trusting of secular sources of information on this topic because they are themselves deceived with the doctrines of devils. The most sensible explanation for a latter-day saint is the one I gave above (I feel); but I visited the above link and it seems interesting, still reading... 1
The Nehor Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 You have it the other way around. We instruct them to do our wills. Have you even read the Lesser Key of Solomon? http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/lks/index.htm If silly occultists wrote it down in the 17th century and tried to ascribe it to Solomon to give it a false sense of authenticity then it must be true. 3
Tsuzuki Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I read I read about it on the wikipedia link you posted but its too confusing - I am not too trusting of secular sources of information on this topic because they are themselves deceived with the doctrines of devils. The most sensible explanation for a latter-day saint is the one I gave above (I feel); but I visited the above link and it seems interesting, still reading...You are in luck, because this is the source text for one of the actual practices of us "modern day robbers of Gadianton."
Tsuzuki Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) If silly occultists wrote it down in the 17th century and tried to ascribe it to Solomon to give it a false sense of authenticity then it must be true.Whether Solomon actually wrote it is irrelevant. It's a real world 21st century practice of us "modern day robbers of Gadianton," and as such is relevant to this thread on demons. I mean, if I'm going to be accused of something, I might as well show you the ways in which you are correct. Edited August 12, 2015 by Tsuzuki 1
CV75 Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I was reading in 1 Nephi about how Christ will cast out demons and unclean spirits and a question occurred: What is the difference between a demon and an unclean spirit?It never occurs to me before that there could be a differences. Anyone have any thoughts?The word used is actually "devil." "Demon" is used only once in all out standard works (Helaman 13:37). From 1 Nephi 11: 31: “And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.” While I think they can be synonymous, the terms “devil” and “unclean spirit” are used in the same verse in the following scriptures, showing in some cases* a relationship between the devil and the unclean spirit. In the other cases (1 and 3 Nephi), I think “devil” is an evil spirit that will never have a body, and an “unclean spirit” is a mental or spiritual illness suffered by the individual, which is some cases I think is so “that the works of God should be made manifest in him” (John 9:3). * Luke 8: 29 29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) The devil exploits the unclean spirit that is in the man. The unclean spirit could be an illness, whether the person is accountable for having brought on the affliction or not. * Luke 9: 42 42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. Again the devil exploits the unclean spirit, or the affliction of the person. * Rev. 18: 2 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Here a “foul” spirit could be someone meriting a stint in spirit prison for his willful wickedness. Luke 4: 33 33 ¶ And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, 3 Ne. 7: 19 19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.
Gray Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I know you can get demons to do work for you. Sounds handy!
Maedros Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 You are in luck, because this is the source text for one of the actual practices of us "modern day robbers of Gadianton."This is hectic stuff man! This is probably what the sealed portion of the Book of Ether contained which was not translated because it contained the secret language and codes of Satan's order of granting power to mankind.
Tsuzuki Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 This is hectic stuff man! This is probably what the sealed portion of the Book of Ether contained which was not translated because it contained the secret language and codes of Satan's order of granting power to mankind. You're welcome.
Maedros Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 The word used is actually "devil." "Demon" is used only once in all out standard works (Helaman 13:37). From 1 Nephi 11: 31: “And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.” While I think they can be synonymous, the terms “devil” and “unclean spirit” are used in the same verse in the following scriptures, showing in some cases* a relationship between the devil and the unclean spirit. In the other cases (1 and 3 Nephi), I think “devil” is an evil spirit that will never have a body, and an “unclean spirit” is a mental or spiritual illness suffered by the individual, which is some cases I think is so “that the works of God should be made manifest in him” (John 9:3). * Luke 8: 29 29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) The devil exploits the unclean spirit that is in the man. The unclean spirit could be an illness, whether the person is accountable for having brought on the affliction or not. * Luke 9: 42 42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. Again the devil exploits the unclean spirit, or the affliction of the person. * Rev. 18: 2 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Here a “foul” spirit could be someone meriting a stint in spirit prison for his willful wickedness. Luke 4: 33 33 ¶ And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, 3 Ne. 7: 19 19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.The fact of the matter is that whether it is an unclean spirit or a demon or devil it is a being of form and shape that exercises power and influences us - we have power over them (yes) whether for good or evil - when one suffers from a mental illness such as in the account in Luke 8:29 it is because of the influence of a spirit or energy which has mass and occupies space. I don't think that departed spirits have power to leave that realm, rather I think the spirits that tempted them or possessed them in mortality are the ones that linger - do we believe that Samuel appeared to Saul at the behest of the witch: I rather doubt it; instead it was an unclean spirit or a devil, either way it is one of the 3rd that fell.
The Nehor Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Whether Solomon actually wrote it is irrelevant. It's a real world 21st century practice of us "modern day robbers of Gadianton," and as such is relevant to this thread on demons. I mean, if I'm going to be accused of something, I might as well show you the ways in which you are correct.Wicca is also a real world 21st century practice but that doesn't make it a bunch of bunk.As to beng a Gadianton robber are you the kind that operates by assassination to take over the government or the kind that hides out in camps fighting a guerrilla was against everyone else or are you a sad wannabe?
Tsuzuki Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Wicca is also a real world 21st century practice but that doesn't make it a bunch of bunk.As to beng a Gadianton robber are you the kind that operates by assassination to take over the government or the kind that hides out in camps fighting a guerrilla was against everyone else or are you a sad wannabe? As a member of Aleister Crowley's Ordo Templi Orientis, I am the kind that fits Maedros' definition, which is why I used the term in quotes. There is no shortage of conspiracy theories accusing O.T.O. of everything from assassination to being reptilian aliens, but I will happily admit to working with Satan's Generals. (And now you can too.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientishttp://oto-usa.org/ Edited August 13, 2015 by Tsuzuki 1
JLHPROF Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Devil/demon is a personage, probably one who was cast out with Satan.Unclean spirit doesn't always reference a personage. It can be something else entirely, like the spirit of jealousy, the spirit of rebellion, anything opposite the the spirit of love, the spirit of kindness etc. Sometimes it refers to a personage spirit, sometimes to a more feeling type of thing. 1
Maedros Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 Devil/demon is a personage, probably one who was cast out with Satan.Unclean spirit doesn't always reference a personage. It can be something else entirely, like the spirit of jealousy, the spirit of rebellion, anything opposite the the spirit of love, the spirit of kindness etc. Sometimes it refers to a personage spirit, sometimes to a more feeling type of thing.Agreed, an unclean spirit doesn't always refer to a personage but most times in scripture and especially the NT it implies a spirit being - a person who degenerates into sinfulness for instance will eventually be possessed by unclean spirits - demons/devils on the other hand are more actively engaged in the work of the devil and definitely spirit beings. According to Rodger Morneau (who claims to have been part of a society of spirit worshippers): he was told that these spirits are beautiful beings and that there was a misunderstanding in heaven, that God did not bare with Satan as he does with his children who make mistakes today and that he (Satan) isn't all that bad. The unclean spirits (in my view) are the ones who lost their first estate without actively fighting with Satan against God - just like there are those who kept their first estate without being valiant and active in the war. These unclean spirits wander the earth like ghosts and may not be directly linked with Satan or take part in his councils.
Avatar4321 Posted August 13, 2015 Author Posted August 13, 2015 The word used is actually "devil." "Demon" is used only once in all out standard works (Helaman 13:37). From 1 Nephi 11: 31: “And he spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Lamb of God going forth among the children of men. And I beheld multitudes of people who were sick, and who were afflicted with all manner of diseases, and with devils and unclean spirits; and the angel spake and showed all these things unto me. And they were healed by the power of the Lamb of God; and the devils and the unclean spirits were cast out.” While I think they can be synonymous, the terms “devil” and “unclean spirit” are used in the same verse in the following scriptures, showing in some cases* a relationship between the devil and the unclean spirit. In the other cases (1 and 3 Nephi), I think “devil” is an evil spirit that will never have a body, and an “unclean spirit” is a mental or spiritual illness suffered by the individual, which is some cases I think is so “that the works of God should be made manifest in him” (John 9:3). * Luke 8: 29 29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) The devil exploits the unclean spirit that is in the man. The unclean spirit could be an illness, whether the person is accountable for having brought on the affliction or not. * Luke 9: 42 42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. Again the devil exploits the unclean spirit, or the affliction of the person. * Rev. 18: 2 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Here a “foul” spirit could be someone meriting a stint in spirit prison for his willful wickedness. Luke 4: 33 33 ¶ And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, 3 Ne. 7: 19 19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.Devils then. I was reading it in Spanish so I didn't check the English.
Tsuzuki Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 The unclean spirits (in my view) are the ones who lost their first estate without actively fighting with Satan against God - just like there are those who kept their first estate without being valiant and active in the war. These unclean spirits wander the earth like ghosts and may not be directly linked with Satan or take part in his councils.They can still be useful. And just think, that could have been all of us if Satan hadn't rebelled. So next time you summon any goetic demons, thank them for giving you the opportunity to prove yourself worthy of incarnation. Unless of course it's all metaphor. But no, that would be ridiculous.
The Nehor Posted August 13, 2015 Posted August 13, 2015 As a member of Aleister Crowley's Ordo Templi Orientis, I am the kind that fits Maedros' definition, which is why I used the term in quotes. There is no shortage of conspiracy theories accusing O.T.O. of everything from assassination to being reptilian aliens, but I will happily admit to working with Satan's Generals. (And now you can too.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientishttp://oto-usa.org/I just play games to enjoy this kind of make-believe.
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