How The Juggernaut Could Sue The Church -- And Win -- On Bsa Issue

[thesometimesaint]

Are you speaking only about U.S.A. Mormons, or worldwide?

 

We are a world wide church. So our sub-organizations need to be world wide too. 

[Robert F. Smith]

.......................................... most Judges use the bench to make law rather than interpret it..................................................

............................................

Not true.  Nearly all judges merely interpret and apply statutes and stare decisis in a standard manner, and are not at all adventurous.   At the appellate and supreme court levels, jurists can get creative, but that is their job -- to apply the Law to novel or complex situations, or to ferret out error in the lower courts.

[Sleeper Cell]

Don't you believe in the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith? "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished” - Joseph Smith

 

So stop worrying, no one is going to harm the church, why not be worried about world hunger instead? 

 

So the murder of Joseph and Hyrum didn’t harm the church?  Being forced out of Nauvoo didn’t harm the church?  The half century of persecutions that followed didn’t harm the church?  

 

Joseph Smith was not saying  that no one would harm the church.  He was saying that the church would ultimately prevail in spite of it.

 

BTW,  isn’t your last statement an example  of the “fallacy of the excluded middle?“  After all, isn’t it  possible to be worried about harm to the church and also be worried about world hunger?   

[Guest]

Not true.  Nearly all judges merely interpret and apply statutes and stare decisis in a standard manner, and are not at all adventurous.   At the appellate and supreme court levels, jurists can get creative, but that is their job -- to apply the Law to novel or complex situations, or to ferret out error in the lower courts.

Using the Supreme Court as of late, not so. I could use rulings over the last few decades, but what would be the point. You can disagree with me if you like...I will not take offense. But dismissing most of my post with unending ellipsis's (hope I spelled it right) was unnecessary. Doing so seems very dismissive, without needing too. But, I have come to expect it.

[Bobbieaware]

Yep- The sky is falling.

Laman and Lemuel told their father they believed the people in Jerusalem were a righteous people and that there was no way the Lord would destroy the city and its "righteous" inhabitants. They accused Lehi of being a visionary alarmist who saw iniquity hiding under every bed. Some are able to discern the signs of the times and others aren't. Go figure...

[PeterPear]

Laman and Lemuel told their father they believed the people in Jerusalem were a righteous people and that there was no way the Lord would destroy the city and its "righteous" inhabitants. They accused Lehi of being a visionary alarmist who saw iniquity hiding under every bed. Some are able to discern the signs of the times and others aren't. Go figure...

 

True.

But it doesn't mean "The Stone cut out of the Mountain without Hands which will fill the Whole Earth" will be stopped by a homosexual "Juggernaut" ; 

 

But according to Scott Lloyd per the article he posted, the Courts will force an Openly Homosexual man to move into his 1/8th sq. mile Utah Ward Boundary to be a Court-appointed Scout Leader in his Ward! LOL

 

Oh the fear! The Fear of Utah Mormons surrounded in their Mountains! Their (and mine) ancestors fled Nauvoo to hide in the Mountains, but the Church has long since grown and is International. But the Utah Mormons still cower from outsiders!

What shall they do! The Courts will force an openly gay man onto them! Whoa Oh Whoa!

 

All due to some an opinion in an article. silly.

 

You need to change the attitude if you plan to participate here.

[Calm]

A better case can be made for exiting the Boy Scouts is that about half the boys in the Church have no Boy Scouts organization available to them.

And all of the girls.

Having a program that resources can be accessed by both youth programs makes more financial sense to me.

Edited August 2, 2015 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

I respond to the above naive Pollyannaish post with the following sobering words:

“Nor are the days of our greatest sorrows and our deepest sufferings all behind us. They too lie ahead. We shall yet face greater perils, we shall yet be tested with more severe trials, and we shall yet weep more tears of sorrow than we have ever known before...

“We see evil forces everywhere uniting to destroy the family, to ridicule morality and decency, to glorify all that is lewd and base. We see wars and plagues and pestilence. Nations rise and fall. Blood and carnage and death are everywhere. Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. An evil power seeks to overthrow the freedom of all nations and countries. Satan reigns in the hearts of men; it is the great day of his power.”

“Truly the world is and will be in commotion, but the Zion of God will be unmoved. The wicked and ungodly shall be swept from the Church, and the little stone will continue to grow until it fills the whole earth.”

“The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.” (Bruce R. McConkie, April 1980 General Conference)

I perceive a tone of mockery in Skeptic Christian's post, but at any rate, his remark reflects a poor grasp of that Joseph Smith prophecy.

[Scott Lloyd]

True.

But it doesn't mean "The Stone cut out of the Mountain without Hands which will fill the Whole Earth" will be stopped by a homosexual "Juggernaut" ;

But according to Scott Lloyd per the article he posted, the Courts will force an Openly Homosexual man to move into his 1/8th sq. mile Utah Ward Boundary to be a Court-appointed Scout Leader in his Ward! LOL

Oh the fear! The Fear of Utah Mormons surrounded in their Mountains! Their (and mine) ancestors fled Nauvoo to hide in the Mountains, but the Church has long since grown and is International. But the Utah Mormons still cower from outsiders!

What shall they do! The Courts will force an openly gay man onto them! Whoa Oh Whoa!

All due to some an opinion in an article. silly.

Ending an association when the other party abandons shared values is not cowering. It's just the opposite, in fact. It's showing courage and the strength of conviction.

What Gates and the BSA executive board did: There's an instance of cowering.

And making obnoxious posts under cover of an anonymous screen name? Well, we won't go into that here.

[ERayR]

But according to Scott Lloyd per the article he posted, the Courts will force an Openly Homosexual man to move into his 1/8th sq. mile Utah Ward Boundary to be a Court-appointed Scout Leader in his Ward! LOL

 

 

CFR You are bearing false witness against Scott. 

[stephenpurdy]

I think we should clarify something here.

 

You can be gay and be a scout leader, even in the LDS church. 

 

However, you cannot promote homosexual behavior, publicly endorse homosexual behavior, or be known to be involved in homosexual behavior and be a scout leader in the LDS church.

 

 

 

-Stephen

[Scott Lloyd]

You mean gays that are engaging in homosexual acts.  If they are gay but married to a woman and sexually active with her, you wouldn't have a problem with it, right?

I thought it was self-evident that when I speak of sexually active gays, I mean those who are practicing gay sex.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Thinking]

The position of scoutmaster is considered a calling and as such applications are not submitted by those who want the position. If such a lawsuit were successful in forcing the LDS Church to appoint a practicing homosexual as scoutmaster, could it lead to the LDS Church being forced to appoint practicing homosexuals to other positions? I don't think either will happen, "or at least that's my theory."

[Mormonmaniac]

I think we should clarify something here.

 

You can be gay and be a scout leader, even in the LDS church. 

 

However, you cannot promote homosexual behavior, publicly endorse homosexual behavior, or be known to be involved in homosexual behavior and be a scout leader in the LDS church.

 

 

 

-Stephen

Kind of the unwritten rule though, no Bishop will extend a calling as Scout master who is gay.

[Robert F. Smith]

Using the Supreme Court as of late, not so. I could use rulings over the last few decades, but what would be the point. You can disagree with me if you like...I will not take offense. But dismissing most of my post with unending ellipsis's (hope I spelled it right) was unnecessary. Doing so seems very dismissive, without needing too. But, I have come to expect it.

I was merely replying to one aspect of your post, and not at all dismissing the remainder. That is the purpose of ellipses.

 

Most people do not understand American jurisprudence because they have not studied it.  You made a false generalization, which I brought to your attention.  If you intended only to refer to the U. S. Supreme Court, you should have said so.  You did not.

 

The purpose of judicial review via landmark cases is not necessarily to reach the "correct" decision.  We have a very diverse population, with many views of what is or is not "correct."  Instead, we have jurists who reach some decision (even if by only 5 to 4), rather than leaving the matter to blood feud.  That is the civilized way of doing things, and the only real purpose which our courts fulfill.

[Robert F. Smith]

The position of scoutmaster is considered a calling and as such applications are not submitted by those who want the position. If such a lawsuit were successful in forcing the LDS Church to appoint a practicing homosexual as scoutmaster, could it lead to the LDS Church being forced to appoint practicing homosexuals to other positions? I don't think either will happen, "or at least that's my theory."

You are correct.  There is no likelihood of any such lawsuit being successful.

[Robert F. Smith]

...................................................

What Gates and the BSA executive board did: There's an instance of cowering.

..........................................................................

I imagine that they see themselves as being very brave, Scott.  You should give them credit for doing what they thought was the right thing.  Just because others have a different set of values, doesn't mean that they are cowards.  That their decision will in the long run be very destructive to Scouting is something which they do not foresee.  They are trying very hard to be  inclusive and just, even though their vision is short-sighted and naive.

[Scott Lloyd]

I imagine that they see themselves as being very brave, Scott. You should give them credit for doing what they thought was the right thing. Just because others have a different set of values, doesn't mean that they are cowards. That their decision will in the long run be very destructive to Scouting is something which they do not foresee. They are trying very hard to be inclusive and just, even though their vision is short-sighted and naive.

I would be less cynical if Gates had expressed it in those terms. He did not. He spoke of the threat of "staggering" lawsuits, the loss of corporate sponsorships, the possible demise of the movement (I can give him a bit of credit on that) and the need to placate chartering entities who were already acting in defiance and violating existing policy.

Couple this with the fact that BSA corporate executives are very highly compensated, they enjoy luxurious perqs such as corporate jets to transport them from place to place while the on-the-ground work is done by volunteers who pay for the privilege, sacrificing vacation and leisure time to do it, and, well, I don't get the impression there was a great deal of altruism on the national corporate end involved in this knuckling under to public pressure.

Furthermore, it was not so very long ago that their position was diametrically opposed to that which they have taken recently. If we declare them brave, just and noble now, do we conclude that they were not so before?

Edited August 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I imagine that they see themselves as being very brave, Scott. You should give them credit for doing what they thought was the right thing. Just because others have a different set of values, doesn't mean that they are cowards. That their decision will in the long run be very destructive to Scouting is something which they do not foresee. They are trying very hard to be inclusive and just, even though their vision is short-sighted and naive.

Yet it appears they ordered the sequence to include avoiding engaging with what might be viewed the strongest opposition to the desired change. Iirc it has even been reported they refused to return phonecalls or emails, not communicating at all with the reaching out to those involved in scouting in the church leadership.

The choice itself might be seen as brave, but if a mayor plans on making a decision to shut down a community center in favour of a mall and refuses totake calls from his constituents who had previously funded his campaign and projects to discuss his potential decision, is he being brave or just avoiding uncomfortable situations where he might be chewed out, insulted, confronted, etc.

Edited August 2, 2015 by calmoriah

[Bobbieaware]

I imagine that they see themselves as being very brave, Scott.  You should give them credit for doing what they thought was the right thing.  Just because others have a different set of values, doesn't mean that they are cowards.  That their decision will in the long run be very destructive to Scouting is something which they do not foresee.  They are trying very hard to be  inclusive and just, even though their vision is short-sighted and naive.

I ask the following question with sincerity and a genuine desire to know where you stand: By your reasoning, could it not also be said that in the war in heaven Lucifer and his followers were also brave and noble? These spirits faced what they should have known where insurmountable odds in what they believed to be a just struggle to try to prevent the kind of nightmarish consequences of maximized free agencey we've seen continually displayed on this planet since the dawn of man. Could it not be said that their cause was a noble one? Or how about the bravery of the Islamic jehadists who plowed those two jets into the towers of the World Trade Center to score a mighty blow against what they believed to be an immoral and ungodly America? Where should we draw the line when it comes to admiring bravery.

[thesometimesaint]

And all of the girls.

Having a program that resources can be accessed by both youth programs makes more financial sense to me.

 

I could see a program like the Girl Scouts coming to the Church. But still wonder about its lack of reach to the girls in the Church without access to the Girl Scouts. Or we could make separate programs for boys and girls that would be within the reach of both.

Edited August 2, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

I ask the following question with sincerity and a genuine desire to know where you stand: By your reasoning, could it not also be said that in the war in heaven Lucifer and his followers were also brave and noble? These spirits faced what they should have known where insurmountable odds in what they believed to be a just struggle to try to prevent the kind of nightmarish consequences of maximized free agencey we've seen continually displayed on this planet since the dawn of man. Could it not be said that their cause was a noble one? Or how about the bravery of the Islamic jehadists who plowed those two jets into the towers of the World Trade Center to score a mighty blow against what they believed to be an immoral and ungodly America? Where should we draw the line when it comes to admiring bravery.

 

Brave? Maybe. Noble? Not so much.

Edited August 2, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Senator]

Don't you believe in the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith? "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished” - Joseph Smith

 

So stop worrying, no one is going to harm the church, why not be worried about world hunger instead? 

 

Probably the best post of this thread IMO!

[Mormonmaniac]

You are correct.  There is no likelihood of any such lawsuit being successful.

We actually do feel out an official BSA application when we get called to a position as a leader within the BSA by the bishop.

[Scott Lloyd]

Probably the best post of this thread IMO!

Obviously you missed or ignored the very solid rebuttal to it. This "best post of the thread" lacked comprehension. The Prophet was not saying there would not be opposition that needed to be overcome or that prudence would notneed to be exercised.

Is there anything in the whole of Mormon belief that conveys the notion that God's people would be able to sit back let Him do everything without lifting a finger or using good judgment to help themselves?

Edited August 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd