SteveO Posted July 30, 2015 Posted July 30, 2015 I was doing a little research and I was googling "second endowment". I wish I hadn't. But now that I have...How is it possible to fall away after your "calling and election isade sure"? It seems rather contradictory and almost defeats the purpose of doing it? I've been trying to wrap my head around it and it doesn't make sense. Are there examples of this occurring in church history? 1
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I was doing a little research and I was googling "second endowment". I wish I hadn't.But now that I have...How is it possible to fall away after your "calling and election isade sure"? It seems rather contradictory and almost defeats the purpose of doing it? I've been trying to wrap my head around it and it doesn't make sense. Are there examples of this occurring in church history? Per what understanding that I have once you have your calling and election made sure you have a reserved place in the Celestial Kingdom. The down side is you have used your quota of the atonement and if you stumble you must be turned over to the buffetings of satan until you have atoned for your own error. Do some time in the D & C.
Storm Rider Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 The Second Endowment is an ordinance. No ordinance removes free agency from an individual. The choices one makes in life have an impact on the future. What might seem to be an innocuous decision today may have a long term detrimental impact on one's salvation. Regardless of what ordinance is performed man remains responsible to endure; some do and some don't. 2
SteveO Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 I've never heard you've "used your quota" before...I'll take a look at D&C when I get home. The only way can see this working is if we bring Judas into this--but the "exit stories" I came across--are we really putting these people into that category???
JLHPROF Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I was doing a little research and I was googling "second endowment". I wish I hadn't.But now that I have...How is it possible to fall away after your "calling and election isade sure"? It seems rather contradictory and almost defeats the purpose of doing it? I've been trying to wrap my head around it and it doesn't make sense. Are there examples of this occurring in church history? C&E made sure is NOT the same as the 2nd Endowment. 1. Calling - First Endowment (check the iniatory - called to become something in the future) 2. Election - Chosen and ordained (second anointing/endowment - actually elected to an office that oddly enough sounds political), hence many are called by few are chosen (elected).REFERENCESJohn 12:3-7John 13:8Revelation 1:6TPJS 333D&C 84:19-22 (what is needed to move to step 3) 3. Made Sure - Confirmed by Christ himself, hence the "more sure word of prophecy" - prophecy is based upon the testimony of Christ, therefore the more sure word of prophecy is a more sure testimony of Christ, or the presence of the second comforter.REFERENCESJohn 14:23-26D&C 88:50D&C 93:1TPJS 150TPJS 298TPJS 306 It's a very simple three step process. Well, simple to understand, hard to achieve. But it is often completely overcomplicated and mixed up. There is often a teaching among today's members that you can skip from 1 to 3, but I have seen no revelation teaching that. Anyone endowed is called. Anyone who receives their second anointing is called and elected. But they don't have it made sure until the Savior confirms it. Edited July 31, 2015 by JLHPROF 1
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I've never heard you've "used your quota" before...I'll take a look at D&C when I get home. The only way can see this working is if we bring Judas into this--but the "exit stories" I came across--are we really putting these people into that category??? Why bring Judas into it? I have seen nothing that indicates he had his calling and election made sure. Quots was all I had in my vocabulary to portray that when you have reached this you have done so by the grace of Jesus Christ and have had your judgement and received your calling and election. He has paid for your sins once you are now the responsible party.
filovirus Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I know this doesn't really have much to do in regards to the second annointing. And that it wasn't a conference talk. But here is a quote from Bruce R. McConkie address to the students at the University of Utah in 1982 and talked about having ones calling and election made sure."Everyone in the Church who is on the straight and narrow path, who is striving and struggling and desiring to do what is right, though is far from perfect in this life; if he passes out of this life while he's on the straight and narrow, he's going to go on to eternal reward in his Father's kingdom. We don't need to get a complex or get a feeling that you have to be perfect to be saved. You don't. There's only been one perfect person, and that's the Lord Jesus, but in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God and in order to pass the test of mortality, what you have to do is get on the straight and narrow path—thus charting a course leading to eternal life—and then, being on that path, pass out of this life in full fellowship. I'm not saying that you don't have to keep the commandments. I'm saying you don't have to be perfect to be saved. If you did, no one would be saved. The way it operates is this: You get on that path that's named the "straight and narrow." You do it by entering at the gate of repentance and baptism. The straight and narrow path leads from the gate of repentance and baptism, a very great distance, to a reward that is called eternal life. "If you're on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you'll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come, and the reason is that this life is the time that is given to men to prepare for eternity. Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you're working zealously in this life—though you haven't fully overcome the world and you haven't done all you hoped you might do—you're still going to be saved.… You don't have to live a life that's truer than true.… What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church—keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you’re on that path when death comes—because this is the time and the day appointed, this the probationary estate—you'll never fall from it." (“The Probationary Test of Mortality,” address delivered at Institute of Religion, SLC, Utah, 10 Jan. 1982)
SteveO Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Ok, I was confused.My grandfather once--in person and in private shared with me his "made sure" experience...just leave it at that.Anyways, I was at work today and I for some reason had that experience play again and again in my mind and so I decided to look a little further into it. I was under the impression that it was the same as the "second endowment" so that's what I googled. I wound up on mormonstories and Tom Philips' in particular. I don't get distinct impressions often, but I got a bad, BAD feeling there that that wasn't something I should linger on. Dehlin's work is definitly not inspired. Anyways I thought I come here and get some clarification instead of picking through the garbage.Just so I understand--the second endowment does not guarantee entry into the celestial kingdom? That's where the confusion is coming from I think
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I know this doesn't really have much to do in regards to the second annointing. And that it wasn't a conference talk. But here is a quote from Bruce R. McConkie address to the students at the University of Utah in 1982 and talked about having ones calling and election made sure."Everyone in the Church who is on the straight and narrow path, who is striving and struggling and desiring to do what is right, though is far from perfect in this life; if he passes out of this life while he's on the straight and narrow, he's going to go on to eternal reward in his Father's kingdom. We don't need to get a complex or get a feeling that you have to be perfect to be saved. You don't. There's only been one perfect person, and that's the Lord Jesus, but in order to be saved in the Kingdom of God and in order to pass the test of mortality, what you have to do is get on the straight and narrow path—thus charting a course leading to eternal life—and then, being on that path, pass out of this life in full fellowship. I'm not saying that you don't have to keep the commandments. I'm saying you don't have to be perfect to be saved. If you did, no one would be saved. The way it operates is this: You get on that path that's named the "straight and narrow." You do it by entering at the gate of repentance and baptism. The straight and narrow path leads from the gate of repentance and baptism, a very great distance, to a reward that is called eternal life."If you're on that path and pressing forward, and you die, you'll never get off the path. There is no such thing as falling off the straight and narrow path in the life to come, and the reason is that this life is the time that is given to men to prepare for eternity. Now is the time and the day of your salvation, so if you're working zealously in this life—though you haven't fully overcome the world and you haven't done all you hoped you might do—you're still going to be saved.… You don't have to live a life that's truer than true.… What you have to do is stay in the mainstream of the Church and live as upright and decent people live in the Church—keeping the commandments, paying your tithing, serving in the organizations of the Church, loving the Lord, staying on the straight and narrow path. If you’re on that path when death comes—because this is the time and the day appointed, this the probationary estate—you'll never fall from it." (“The Probationary Test of Mortality,” address delivered at Institute of Religion, SLC, Utah, 10 Jan. 1982) It has been years since I last looked at this but I think it was Sidney Rigdon had his calling and election made sure. I remember a statement by BY ( I think) that went something like this (we will see brother Sidney in the Celestial Kingdom but he will be a much more humble Sidney)I did a quick search but couldn't find it but it will give you some where to start.
JLHPROF Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Just so I understand--the second endowment does not guarantee entry into the celestial kingdom? That's where the confusion is coming from I think Actually Baptism is the ordinance that allows entry into the Celestial Kingdom. All other ordinances just determine your role and family status there.And Baptism is no more a guarantee of entry than the Second Anointing is a guarantee of exaltation. But they do put you under certain covenants and give you certain authority and rights if you live accordingly.But until Christ confirms your position, anyone can fall. Some just fall from higher heights and end up lower down. 1
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Ok, I was confused.My grandfather once--in person and in private shared with me his "made sure" experience...just leave it at that.Anyways, I was at work today and I for some reason had that experience play again and again in my mind and so I decided to look a little further into it. I was under the impression that it was the same as the "second endowment" so that's what I googled. I wound up on mormonstories and Tom Philips' in particular. I don't get distinct impressions often, but I got a bad, BAD feeling there that that wasn't something I should linger on. Dehlin's work is definitly not inspired.Anyways I thought I come here and get some clarification instead of picking through the garbage.Just so I understand--the second endowment does not guarantee entry into the celestial kingdom? That's where the confusion is coming from I think I have not looked at second endowment so I don't know.
Brian 2.0 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Per what understanding that I have once you have your calling and election made sure you have a reserved place in the Celestial Kingdom. The down side is you have used your quota of the atonement and if you stumble you must be turned over to the buffetings of satan until you have atoned for your own error. ... and then go to the celestial kingdom and receive your exaltation?
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Actually Baptism is the ordinance that allows entry into the Celestial Kingdom. All other ordinances just determine your role and family status there.And Baptism is no more a guarantee of entry than the Second Anointing is a guarantee of exaltation. But they do put you under certain covenants and give you certain authority and rights if you live accordingly.But until Christ confirms your position, anyone can fall. Some just fall from higher heights and end up lower down. That is what calling and election sure does. 1
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 ... and then go to the celestial kingdom and receive your exaltation? yes that is my understanding.
Brian 2.0 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 yes that is my understanding. This sort of circles back to a previous discussion of if payment for sin can be performed by someone other than Jesus. It was regarding if the people in telestial kingdom paid for their own sins in hell, then inherited their glory after that payment was done. In that discussion there were two camps. 1) They suffer for their sins in hell, and it humbles them enough to eventually call on Jesus and the atonement pays for their sins and then they exit hell and go to the telestial kingdom or 2) They pay for their sins in hell, and it sucks, but eventually that payment is complete and they exit hell and go to the telestial kingdom. They confess Jesus is the Christ, but His atonement was never used to pay for their sins, it was their own suffering. What you are describing is similar to #2 in the fact that the person is paying for a sin themselves and being cleansed from it through their own suffering and not Christ's atonement. Am I understanding you correctly?
JLHPROF Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 That is what calling and election sure does. Yes, but as I've already pointed out, that is not the same as the second anointing. The second anointing is preparatory to receiving your calling and election made sure. You could call it "your calling and election to be made sure". Waiting on God and Christ and continuing to purify yourself.
SteveO Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 That is what calling and election sure does.So are you saying that the third step as outlined by JLHPROF is not necessary for confirmed exaltation? Tom Philips in his story said as much, which again, is where I'm confused. (I know he isn't a great source, but I can't unsee it now!)
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 This sort of circles back to a previous discussion of if payment for sin can be performed by someone other than Jesus. It was regarding if the people in telestial kingdom paid for their own sins in hell, then inherited their glory after that payment was done. In that discussion there were two camps. 1) They suffer for their sins in hell, and it humbles them enough to eventually call on Jesus and the atonement pays for their sins and then they exit hell and go to the telestial kingdom or 2) They pay for their sins in hell, and it sucks, but eventually that payment is complete and they exit hell and go to the telestial kingdom. They confess Jesus is the Christ, but His atonement was never used to pay for their sins, it was their own suffering. What you are describing is similar to #2 in the fact that the person is paying for a sin themselves and being cleansed from it through their own suffering and not Christ's atonement. Am I understanding you correctly? #1 I have no comment on. #2 I am not sure is accurate. Someday I may research it. End comment Kinda except when they had their calling and election made sure it was through and by the atonement of Christ. They are then blameless and pure. What comes after (post exaltation) is subject to the laws of justice.
ERayR Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 C&E made sure is NOT the same as the 2nd Endowment. 1. Calling - First Endowment (check the iniatory - called to become something in the future) 2. Election - Chosen and ordained (second anointing/endowment - actually elected to an office that oddly enough sounds political), hence many are called by few are chosen (elected).REFERENCESJohn 12:3-7John 13:8Revelation 1:6TPJS 333D&C 84:19-22 (what is needed to move to step 3) 3. Made Sure - Confirmed by Christ himself, hence the "more sure word of prophecy" - prophecy is based upon the testimony of Christ, therefore the more sure word of prophecy is a more sure testimony of Christ, or the presence of the second comforter.REFERENCESJohn 14:23-26D&C 88:50D&C 93:1TPJS 150TPJS 298TPJS 306 It's a very simple three step process. Well, simple to understand, hard to achieve. But it is often completely overcomplicated and mixed up. There is often a teaching among today's members that you can skip from 1 to 3, but I have seen no revelation teaching that. Anyone endowed is called. Anyone who receives their second anointing is called and elected. But they don't have it made sure until the Savior confirms it. Thanks for the research. It has been years since I studied this so right now I am going off my aging memory. 1
JLHPROF Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 So are you saying that the third step as outlined by JLHPROF is not necessary for confirmed exaltation? Tom Philips in his story said as much, which again, is where I'm confused. (I know he isn't a great source, but I can't unsee it now!) That is the real issue of the debate. Where does the "guarantee" come? And while I have my opinions, I'm not sure we really know. Is the second step enough to confirm exaltation or does it require the third?Some will receive the second step in this life and the third in the next life.Most members will only make it to step one in this life and will move to steps two and three in the next.And some, very few, but some of God's servants receive all three in this life. It is eternal progression after all. Those who receive all here will just be a bit ahead in the next life. I would like to see all this people do right, and keep the commandments of God. I would like to see them fulfil their covenants, and live up to their vows and promises, and fulfil their obligations, for they have obligated themselves before God, and before angels, and before earthly witnesses, that they would do this.What you have agreed to do, God will require you to perform, if it should be ten thousand years after this time. And when the servants of God speak to you, and require you to do a thing, the Lord God will fulfil His words, and make you fulfil His words he gave to you through His servants. Inasmuch as you have come into this Church, and made a covenant to forsake the world, and cleave unto the Lord, and keep His commandments, the Lord will compel you to do it, if it should be in ten thousand years from this time. These are my views, and I know it will be so. - Heber C. Kimball JD 2:151 2
JLHPROF Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Why bring Judas into it? I have seen nothing that indicates he had his calling and election made sure. Because as one of the apostles whose feet Christ washed, he received his second anointing. He had his calling and election. However was it made sure? Doubtful, but if it was and he fell, he would be perdition. Only those who receive the 3rd step in my earlier post, the visitation of the Savior and then fall become perdition. Even Tom Phillips, for all his trying, can't rightly be considered "perdition". Perhaps Judas is or isn't. I don't think we know.This is also evidenced in Joseph Smith stating that Judas did not commit suicide, but was actually killed by Peter under blood atonement to pay with his own blood for his own sin against Christ after receiving this higher ordinance. All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it. - Joseph Smith Edited July 31, 2015 by JLHPROF
Brian 2.0 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 From the JS quote it would seem unlikely that Judas was perdition because he hadn't received the Holy Ghost yet, correct?
SteveO Posted July 31, 2015 Author Posted July 31, 2015 Hold on. This brings up another question:All members receive the Holy Ghost after baptism. There have been many who have lost their testimony/left the church--but we would never think of them as perdition...So what manifestation of the Holy Ghost are we talking about here? Is it a different witness than the one we would expect to accompany Moroni's promise? I recall a statement once that mentioned a difference between the power of the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost itself? Is the latter a more rare occurance?
CV75 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 regarding if the people in telestial kingdom paid for their own sins in hell, then inherited their glory after that payment was done.The way I see it is, Christ already fully suffered the infinite and eternal punishment for our sins. Those who refuse this gift will suffer in the same way He did, not as punishment for their sins but as punishment for refusing His grace. I think this is why it is referred to as His vengeance, and how ” they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.” So are you saying that the third step as outlined by JLHPROF is not necessary for confirmed exaltation? Tom Philips in his story said as much, which again, is where I'm confused. (I know he isn't a great source, but I can't unsee it now!)Anything a mortal can do in the name of Jesus or having taken His name upon him possesses eternal or exalting value only when sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, “which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.”
CV75 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Hold on. This brings up another question:The letter of the law is black and white, but the spirit of the law discerns the infinite degrees therein.
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