hope_for_things Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 A better comparison would be how many fathers would be suggesting to someone they believed was the prophet for him to be sealed/married to their 14 year old daughter. I believe the whole reason Heber offered Helen to Joseph is as an alternative to taking his wife Vilate. There are problems with the very late telling of the Vilate story by Heber’s grandson Orson F. Whitney. Some historians I’ve read don’t consider the Abrahamic sacrifice explanation to be plausible, primarily because Joseph was taking other men’s wifes at this time, and the strangeness of this exception to that practice. It’s hard to piece the whole story together, but I think it too simplistic to suggest that Heber came up with this idea outside of the context of everything else going on with Vilate and Joseph’s practice of polyandry. Heber may not have even came up with the idea, it may have been Joseph’s idea, we really don’t have much information about this.
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I believe the whole reason Heber offered Helen to Joseph is as an alternative to taking his wife Vilate. There are problems with the very late telling of the Vilate story by Heber’s grandson Orson F. Whitney. Some historians I’ve read don’t consider the Abrahamic sacrifice explanation to be plausible, primarily because Joseph was taking other men’s wifes at this time, and the strangeness of this exception to that practice. It’s hard to piece the whole story together, but I think it too simplistic to suggest that Heber came up with this idea outside of the context of everything else going on with Vilate and Joseph’s practice of polyandry. Heber may not have even came up with the idea, it may have been Joseph’s idea, we really don’t have much information about this. I don't believe this to be correct at all. Nor do I believe Joseph was "taking other men's wives" in the way it is often portrayed.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Not sure what you are asking?Any apostles (Brigham, Heber etc) that performed Joseph's marriages had the apostleship and his permission as holder of the keys. Any non-apostles would be just like temple sealers - performing the ordinance with delegated authority.Am I missing part of your question?I'm asking if he delegated keys? Sometimes it was the woman's father or uncle or brother who conducted the wedding ceremony but I've never heard or read that those people were delegated keys. Is there evidence that this step took place or is it just assumed? Or did these individuals truly just do a non-sealing, non-legal marriage ceremony that was later sealed? If that's the case, how would relations have been legit if JS and the wife were neither legally married or sealed?
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 I'm asking if he delegated keys? Sometimes it was the woman's father or uncle or brother who conducted the wedding ceremony but I've never heard or read that those people were delegated keys. Is there evidence that this step took place or is it just assumed? Or did these individuals truly just do a non-sealing, non-legal marriage ceremony that was later sealed? If that's the case, how would relations have been legit if JS and the wife were neither legally married or sealed? Delegation at that time was possibly viewed differently.I am assuming that you are familiar with the Wilford Woodruff story about Joseph and the handkerchief during the day of power.I am not sure that delegation requires ordination. After all you are not using your own office, you are using his on his behalf.But that is speculation. As you said, there is no record. As for the resealings in the temple of marriages that were performed elsewhere, that was done because of the principle in D&C 124:29-30For a baptismal font there is not upon the earth, that they, my saints, may be baptized for those who are dead—For this ordinance belongeth to my house, and cannot be acceptable to me, only in the days of your poverty, wherein ye are not able to build a house unto me. The relations were legitimate because the sealings were.
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Opinion:I don't believe a 14-15 yo girl, properly raised, is unfit for marriage- if that is her desire. The problem, these days, is that they are not raised properly. Very few young women, in this generation, would be fit for marriage. Opinion: I believe your opinion is, on average, crazy talk. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Opinion: I believe your opinion is, on average, crazy talk.Do me the favor of explaining why you believe that. I am more than willing to be corrected.
HappyJackWagon Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 If you believe it was altered by revelation you have no problem.If you believe it wasn't, the original made no mention of the law.That's a carefully worded acknowledgement that to you the fundamentalists are right I appreciate that you are consistent
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) That's a carefully worded acknowledgement that to you the fundamentalists are right I appreciate that you are consistent I try. Either way, the wording of the law of chastity was changed. Joseph violated no aspect of it as given during his lifetime in marrying plural wives. He also violated no governmental law on marriage during his lifetime having only one legal wife. Edited June 12, 2015 by JLHPROF
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Do me the favor of explaining why you believe that. I am more than willing to be corrected. One, I have no idea what you mean by "raised right." Raised "right" to do what? Be married? What kind of marriage? Subservience to a domineering male? That's not a marriage, that's a type of slavery. Just look at the FLDS. They are destroying young women's lives by marrying them off to older men while these girls are in their early to mid teens. Regardless, the undefined variables in your statement are all over the place. Two, the fact that our society has moved away from a frontier, agriculturally based economy, means our children are not forced into as many hardships at young ages (on the whole) that force them to take on adult roles during adolescence. That's not a bad thing; it's a good thing. It allows for more time to adjust emotionally to the world around us; to develop better critical thinking skills and more mature relationships. The fact is, the decision-making areas of the human brain are not fully formed until a person is in his/her twenties. We are far too impulsive (not good for parenting) and far too easily manipulated emotionally (not good for developing a nurturing peer relationship with a spouse) in our teens, by nature. No amount of "raising right" is going to make the brain develop that much faster to reach these higher order skills. Edited June 12, 2015 by ttribe 1
ALarson Posted June 12, 2015 Author Posted June 12, 2015 And you know this how? How about you just look at the wording of her age in the church's recent essay. Why didn't they just write that Helen was 14 years old? I highly doubt there are very few members who don't at least initially have an issue with a 38 year old man marrying a 14 year old girl. Also, the feedback I've received from my own Bishop regarding members coming to him after reading this essay is that all of them so far have been upset with Joseph marrying a 14 year old. 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 One, I have no idea what you mean by "raised right." Raised "right" to do what? Be married? What kind of marriage? Subservience to a domineering male? That's not a marriage, that's a type of slavery. Just look at the FLDS. They are destroying young women's lives by marrying them off to older men in their early to mid teens. Regardless, the undefined variables in your statement are all over the place. Two, the fact that our society has moved away from a frontier, agriculturally based economy, means our children are not forced into as many hardships at young ages (on the whole) that force them to take on adult roles during adolescence. That's not a bad thing; it's a good thing. It allows for more time to adjust emotionally to the world around us; to develop better critical thinking skills and more mature relationships. The fact is, the decision-making areas of the human brain are not fully formed until a person is in his/her twenties. We are far too impulsive (not good for parenting) and far too easily manipulated emotionally (not good for developing a nurturing peer relationship with a spouse) in our teens, by nature. No amount of "raising right" is going to make the brain develop that much faster to reach these higher order skills.I am unmoved by your arguments, but thanks for offering your opinion.
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) I am unmoved by your arguments, but thanks for offering your opinion. Color me unsurprised. Edited June 12, 2015 by ttribe
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Color me unsurprised.Why? What do you possibly know about me that would inform you of what I believe or don't believe or what I would do or not do? Edited June 12, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Why? What do you possibly know about me that would inform you of what I believe or don't believe or what I would do or not do? Nothing other than what I've read here and, on average, hardly anyone (on this board) ever changes from some firmly-held belief. Just not incredulous at your dismissal of my argument.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 No amount of "raising right" is going to make the brain develop that much faster to reach these higher order skills. Experience can be a big factor in early development of these higher order skills.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Nothing other than what I've read here and, on average, hardly anyone (on this board) ever changes from some firmly-held belief. Just not incredulous at your dismissal of my argument.What is the "firmly-held" belief you think I have? I was merely offering an opinion on the fitness of some young women being able to marry. You are the one that decided to call me "crazy" and summarily dismiss my opinion without offering any explanation until requested. I could detail the finer points of your opinion to which I disagree- but what would be the point- since, as you have stated, no one here "ever changes". Edited June 12, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 Experience can be a big factor in early development of these higher order skills. What kind of experience? Hardship? Are we going to subject our children to extreme hardship in order to get them to develop sooner? For what purpose? Even then, it's likely to come at great cost because (on average) the brain isn't ready for these things.
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) What is the "firmly-held" belief you think I have? I was merely offering an opinion on the fitness of some young women being able to marry. You are the one that decided to call me "crazy" and summarily dismiss my opinion without offering any explanation until requested. I could detail the finer points of your opinion to which I disagree- but what would be the point- since, as you have stated, no one here "ever changes". You stated you believe that being "raised right" allows for young women to be married at 14-15. Did I misinterpret? I didn't call you crazy. I called that opinion "crazy talk." We all have opinions that can be labeled like that. I'm curious, do you have any daughters, or children for that matter? Edited June 12, 2015 by ttribe
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 BTW, people do change. If you could see back from 2010, when I joined, until now, you would see I have evolved quite a bit in my theological beliefs and attitude.
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 BTW, people do change. If you could see back from 2010, when I joined, until now, you would see I have evolved quite a bit in my theological beliefs and attitude. Of course. So have I, but we are talking about a pair of posts that were minutes apart. I didn't expect you to come around to my way of thinking based off a few lines on a computer screen that I gave off the top of my head.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) You stated you believe that being "raised right" allows for young women to be married at 14-15. Did I misinterpret? I didn't call you crazy. I called that opinion "crazy talk." We all have opinions that can be labeled like that. I'm curious, do you have any daughters, or children for that matter?Yes,my opinion is if that is their desire and they have the consent of their parents. Belief is something else to me. To me, belief implies that I believe they should be married at those ages, which I don't.I have lots of crazy opinions, this is the least of them. Not currently, but if I did my opinion would still be the same. My wife and I have discussed such things in anticipation of the LORD, if He sees fit, blessing us with children. Edited June 12, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr
ERayR Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 What kind of experience? Hardship? Are we going to subject our children to extreme hardship in order to get them to develop sooner? For what purpose? Even then, it's likely to come at great cost because (on average) the brain isn't ready for these things. In some neighborhoods "we" don't have to subject our children to hardship it just comes with the neighborhood. Teach your children to be thankful for their circumstances.
JLHPROF Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 What kind of experience? Hardship? Are we going to subject our children to extreme hardship in order to get them to develop sooner? For what purpose? Even then, it's likely to come at great cost because (on average) the brain isn't ready for these things. Sounds a little like a certain Heavenly Father I have read about... 1
cinepro Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) And you know this how? Was a poll taken? Or does this reflect your own feelings? Presentism is a strong element in our modern evaluation of history, but professional historians and anthropologists generally take the differences in stride, understanding that people in the past had a range of differences from us across a broad spectrum. Mature reflection is needed. I strongly suspect you are overestimating the tolerance in 19th century American society for a 37-year-old married man taking a 14-year-old girl as an additional wife. Even a "celestial" one. No data, just a suspicion. But based on the secrecy needed in Nauvoo, the reaction to the general public when it was made public in Utah, and the events leading up to Joseph Smith's death, I'm not seeing a lot of tolerance for such arrangements. Edited June 12, 2015 by cinepro
ttribe Posted June 12, 2015 Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Yes,my opinion is if that is their desire and they have the consent of their parents. Belief is something else to me. To me, belief implies that I believe they should be married at those ages, which I don't.I have lots of crazy opinions, this is the least of them. Not currently, but if I did my opinion would still be the same. My wife and I have discussed such things in anticipation of the LORD, if He sees fit, blessing us with children. I hear what you are saying about not changing your opinion if you did have kids, but you might be surprised how things change when you do. My wife and I have three children - Son (16), Son (10), Daughter (7). I used to think I understood teenagers...until I had one. I look at society very differently now with a daughter in my care than I used to (I'm ashamed to admit that it took having a daughter to change certain worldview issues for me). In some neighborhoods "we" don't have to subject our children to hardship it just comes with the neighborhood. Teach your children to be thankful for their circumstances. Every day, sir, every day. Sounds a little like a certain Heavenly Father I have read about... Well, that's a whole different discussion. One I won't participate in on a public forum any more. Edited June 12, 2015 by ttribe
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