What Is The Meaning Of The Parable Of The Nobleman And The Olive Trees?

[rodheadlee]

I basically got called a cold war relic in the now closed Second Coming thread. It's all good because it's true. I hope those dreams never come true. But I still have to wonder if this parable applies to the Church and it's enemies or is it applicable to the US as a country? I guess a third option would be that it only applied to the Saints at the time it was given and we need no watchtower. If it applies to the Church in our day, presently, then who are our enemies?.

 

43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.

 44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;

 45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.

 46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.

 47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?

 48 And consult

ed for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?

 49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.

 50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

 51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down thehedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?

 53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?

 54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of hisservants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;

 56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

 57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.

 58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you,avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.

 59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?

 60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;

 61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, aruler in my kingdom.

 62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.

 63 Again, verily I say unto you, I will show unto you wisdom in me concerning all the churches, inasmuch as they are willing to be guided in a right and proper way for their salvation—

[Duncan]

Does it only have to apply to the US? 

[DragonLancer]

I basically got called a cold war relic in the now closed Second Coming thread. It's all good because it's true. I hope those dreams never come true. But I still have to wonder if this parable applies to the Church and it's enemies or is it applicable to the US as a country? I guess a third option would be that it only applied to the Saints at the time it was given and we need no watchtower. If it applies to the Church in our day, presently, then who are our enemies?.

 

43 And now, I will show unto you a parable, that you may know my will concerning the redemption of Zion.

 44 A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees;

 45 And set watchmen round about them, and build a tower, that one may overlook the land round about, to be a watchman upon the tower, that mine olive trees may not be broken down when the enemy shall come to spoil and take upon themselves the fruit of my vineyard.

 46 Now, the servants of the nobleman went and did as their lord commanded them, and planted the olive trees, and built a hedge round about, and set watchmen, and began to build a tower.

 47 And while they were yet laying the foundation thereof, they began to say among themselves: And what need hath my lord of this tower?

 48 And consult

ed for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace?

 49 Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.

 50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

 51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down thehedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

52 Now, behold, the nobleman, the lord of the vineyard, called upon his servants, and said unto them, Why! what is the cause of this great evil?

 53 Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and—after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof—built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watched for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you?

 54 And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy while he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.

55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of hisservants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry;

 56 And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money.

 57 Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.

 58 And inasmuch as they gather together against you,avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land.

 59 And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be?

 60 And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you;

 61 And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, aruler in my kingdom.

 62 And his servant went straightway, and did all things whatsoever his lord commanded him; and after many days all things were fulfilled.

 63 Again, verily I say unto you, I will show unto you wisdom in me concerning all the churches, inasmuch as they are willing to be guided in a right and proper way for their salvation—

 

Joseph Smith actually used this parable as a background text in light of the constitution hanging by a thread prophecy.  So the fall of the US and the redemption of Jackson County, Missouri as Zion is actually one of the primary interpretations of this parable that Joseph Smith had made:

 

D. Michael Stewart, Brigham Young University, Department of History stated:

The documents show that Joseph Smith did prophesy a number of times that the United States and the Constitution would be imperiled and that the elders would have a hand in saving them. The first known record of the prophecy dates to July 19, 1840, in Nauvoo, when the prophet spoke about the redemption of Zion. Using Doctrine & Covenants 101 as a text, he said . . . (D. Michael Stewart, Ensign, Vol. 6, No. 6, June 1976, p. 64)

 

 

And then after the ellipsis, he quotes Joseph Smith, as quoted by Martha Jane Knowlton Coray, recorded on July 19, 1840:

 

 

[The Prophet] read a chapter in [Ezekiel, chapter 33] concluding with this saying [i.e. paraphrasing from Ezekiel 33:33]: “And when all these things come to pass (and lo, they will come) then shall you know that a Prophet hath been among you.”

Afterwards [the Prophet] read the parable of the twelve olive trees [D&C 101:44], and said, speaking of the Land of Zion, that it consists of all North and South America.  But that any place where the Saints gather is Zion, which every righteous man will build up for a place of safety for his children; that the olive trees are twelve stakes which are yet to be built not the Temple in Jackson [County, Missouri] as some suppose.  For while the twelve olive stakes are being built we will be at peace, but the nations of the earth will be at war.

Our cry from the first has been for peace, and we will continue pleading, like the widow at the feet of the unjust judge [D&C 101:81-84].  But we may plead at the feet of magistrates and at the feet of judges, at the feet of Governors and at the feet of senators and at the feet of the Presidents for eight years, it will be of no avail. We shall find no favor in any of the courts of this government. The redemption of Zion is the redemption of all North and South America.  And those twelve stakes must be built up before the redemption of Zion can take place.  And those who refuse to gather and build when they are commanded to do so cease to be saviours of men, and are henceforth good for nothing, but shall be cast out and trodden under feet of men.  For their transgression [is] as [that of] Reed Peck was when he applied in the name of an apostate for business in a store in Quincy.  They told him that they wanted no apostates round them and showed him the door.  At this same store the Authorities of this Church could have obtained almost any amount of credit they could have asked.

We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace until the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch-tower, and then shall they begin to say within themselves, “What need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace?” Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these Twelve Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth [D&C 101:10-12,43-62]. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground. And when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff upon which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction.

Then shall the Lord say, Go tell all my servants who are the strength of mine house, my young men and middle aged &c, come to the Land of my vineyard and fight the battle of the Lord. [D&C 101:55-56]. Then the Kings and Queens shall come.  Then the rulers of the Earth shall come then shall [all] saints come.  Yea, the Foreign saints shall come to fight for the land of my vineyard.  For in this thing shall be their safety, and they will have no power to choose but will come as a man fleeth from a sudden destruction.

But before this the time shall be when these who are now my friends shall become my enemies and shall seek to take my life.  A there are those now before me who will more furiously pursue me, the more diligently seek to my life and be more bloodthirsty upon my track than ever were the Missouri mobber.  You say among yourselves as did them of old time, “It is I?” and “Is it I?”  But I know these things by the visions of the Almighty.

But brethren come ye yea come all of you who can come, and go to with your mights and build up the cities of the Lord.  And whosoever will let him come and partake of the poverty of Nauvoo freely.  For those who partake of her poverty shall also partake of her prosperity.  And it is now wisdom in God that we should enter into as compact a city as possible.  For Zion and Jerusalem must both be built up before the coming of Christ.  How long will it take to do this, ten years?  Yes, more than forty years will pass before this work will be accomplished.  And when these cities are built, then shall the coming of the Son of Man be.

Now let all who can coolly and deliberately dispose of their property come up and give of their substance to the [poor?] that the hearts of the poor may be comforted and all may worship God together in holiness of heart.  Come brethren, come all of you.  And I prophecy in the name of the Lord that the state of Illinois shall become a great mountain and mighty mountain, as [a] city set upon a hill that cannot be hid, and [as] a great [light] that giveth light to the world, and the city of Nauvoo also shall become the greatest city in the whole world.

Curse that man who says to his neighbor you are a mean man because you do not believe as I do.  I now invite all liberal-minded men to come up to Nauvoo and help to build up the city of our God.  We are not greatly distressed, nor ever will be.  This is the principle place of gathering.  Therefore let the brethren begin to roll in like clouds and we will sell you lots if you are able to pay for them, and if not you shall have them without money and without price.

The greater blessing is unto those who come in times of adversity.  For many will come to us in times of prosperity that will stand at the corners of the street saying with long Pharisaical faces to those that come after them, “Don't go near Brother Joseph, don't go near the authorities of the church.  For they will pick your pockets they will rob you of all your money.”  Thus will they breed in our midst a spirit of dissatisfaction and distrust that will end in persecution and distress—

Now from this hour bring every thing you can bring and build a Temple unto the Lord, a House [unto] the mighty God of Jacob. We will build upon the top of this Temple a great observatory a great and high watch tower and in the top thereof we will suspend a tremendous bell which, that when it is rung, shall rouse the inhabitants of Madison, wake up the people of Warsaw and sound in the ears of men [in] Carthage.  Then comes the ancient records yea all of them dig them yea bring them forth speedily.

Then shall the poor be fed by the curious who shall come from all parts of the world to see this wonderful temple.  Yea I prophesy that pleasure parties shall come from England to see the mammoth and like the Queen of Sheba shall say the half never was told them. School houses shall be built here and high schools shall be established.  And the great men of the [earth] shall send their sons here to board while they are receiving their education among us.  And even noblemen shall crave the privilege of educating their children with us, and these poor saints shall chink in their pockets the money of these proud men received from such as come and dwell with us.

Now brethren I obligate myself to build as great a temple as ever Solomon, did if the church will back me up. Moreover it shall not impoverish any man but enrich thousands.  I prophesy that the time shall be when these saints shall ride proudly over the mountains of Missouri and no Gentile dog nor Missouri dog shall dare lift a tongue against them, but will lick up the dust from beneath their feet.  And I pray the father that many here may realize this and see it with their eyes. And if it should be (stretching his hand towards the place and in a melancholy tone that made all hearts tremble) [the] will of God that I might live to behold that temple completed and finished from the foundation to the top stone I will say, Oh Lord it is enough.  Lord, let thy servant depart in peace, which is my earnest prayer in the name of the Lord Jesus, Amen.  (Joseph Smith Papers, LDS Church Historical Archives, in Howard and Martha Coray Notebook, July 19, 1840, quoted by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, comps. and eds., The Words of Joseph Smith (Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980), p. 415-416; D. Michael Stewart, Ensign, Vol. 6, No. 6, June 1976, pp. 64; See also, W. Cleon Skousen, “Prophecy and the Constitution,” Audio Tape, 90 min., Ensign Publishing Company, Distributed by Sounds of Zion, Sandy, Utah; The Historians Corner, BYU Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, p. 391-392;  https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/19.3JesseeJoseph-15077f02-e1e8-4d71-8a04-76b9996d40d1.pdf)

 

As you can see, Joseph Smith said that the twelve Olive trees are twelve stakes that would be built in the region of Nauvoo and Iowa.

It is interesting that some of the things in this prophecy can ONLY be fulfilled with the return of the saints to the area of Nauvoo, and with the REBUILDING and rededication of the Nauvoo Temple in 2002.  So the timing of the fulfillment of some of this prophecy could only take place AFTER 2002, for rulers of nations and so forth to come to see the temple there.

 

And then there is the account of Wandle Mace, that reported again that the twelve olive trees in the context of what Joseph Smith was speaking of were the twelve stakes of Zion that existed at that time in the region of Nauvoo in Illinois and Iowa, etc.:

 

These things did not come upon us unexpectedly—at least to those who were watching the signs of the times.  The Prophet Joseph had told us that many of us would live to go the “Rocky Mountains,” and there become a mighty people.  Therefore we were looking forward to this time. Some of us was afraid we would not have time to finish the [Nauvoo] Temple before these things came upon us, they were coming so fast.

Joseph, when preaching upon the redemption of Zion, read from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants the parable of the twelve olive trees—a revelation given through him on the 16th December, 1833.  Commencing at the 43rd verse, he explained this parable. He said, “The twelve olive trees were twelve stakes of Zion which should be built up, and thrown down by our enemies.”  And while we were building the tower of the temple we could count that 12 stakes had been organized.  And we were a little fearful we would not accomplish our part of the labor.  We did however, although the finish was given, and the final dedication took place after the body of the Church had started from Nauvoo.  The 12 stakes were broken down, and the people fled to the Rocky Mountains. (Autobiography of Wandle Mace, typescript, p. 189, BYU Harold B. Lee Library Special Collections.)

 

 

So, the people fleeing Nauvoo and coming to the Rocky Mountains was a partial fulfillment of this prophecy by Joseph Smith.  However, the rest of it regarding the fall of the United States in conjunction with the Constitution hanging by a Thread prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.  And it is interesting that it is saying that the saints from foreign nations would come to the US to fight militarily in the battle, to redeem Jackson County Missouri.

 

But the Constitution Hanging by a Thread has been misinterpreted by many, because the context of it is the fall of the nation of the United States and the salvation of the remnants, and the establishment of Zion in Missouri.  It is not JUST the salvation of the document of the Constitution by the Elders of Israel stepping forward to save it.  So, as you can see, some of these things could be interpreted that the Elders of Israel may at some point be involved in actually redeeming Missouri militarily, in some kind of conflict.  Parley P. Pratt recorded the intent of Joseph Smith stating the following (once again seemingly referring to D&C 101):

 

The government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of blood and cannot stand as it is now is, but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair! Then the servants go to the nations of the earth, and gather the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory![D&C 101:43] (George A. Smith Papers, Church Archives, Box 7, Folder 5; D. Michael Stewart, Ensign, vol. 6, No. 6, Jun 1976, pp. 64-65)

 

 

This seems to be the intent of the "Hancock Prophecy" as well, where Mosiah Lyman Hancock reportedly recorded in his autobiography what Joseph Smith said back in 1844 (but Hancock apparently recorded it decades afterward):

 

There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party. The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands, until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of United States.” Then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their forefathers, that the land will not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U.S. army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up, when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin. And they will say, “Brethren, we are glad you have come. Give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God.” Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when it’s liberty hangs by a hair, as it were. (The Journal of Mosiah Lyman Hancock, p. 19-20; Autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, typescript, BYU Library Special Collections, p. 29. Compiled by Amy E. Baird, Victoria H. Jackson, and Laura L. Wassell (daughters of Mosiah Hancock). http://www.math.byu.edu/~smithw/Lds/LDS/Early-Saints/Mhancock.html. See also Crowther, Duane S., Inspired Prophetic Warnings, Horizon Publishers, Bountiful, UT, 1987, pp. 186-187; Crowther, Prophecy, Key to the Future, 10-11)

 

The Independent American Party that is a far right party that organized itself in 1998, that is allied with the Constitution Party and other "Tea Party" groups conveniently named itself by this name intentionally because the creators of the party wanted to be the fulfillment of this prophecy.  There are some problems here though, because it is a late recollection.  Nevertheless, the context here is exactly what we see from the Knowlton Coray version of the Constitution Hanging by a Thread prophecy above, as well as the Parley P. Pratt version.  And Hancock records here that there would be a military conflict at the time of that the country's liberty would "hang by a hair."  This is unmistakably another version/account of the Constitution Hanging by a Thread, and it seems to indicate a military conflict in the redemption of Zion/Jackson County.

 

Now, someone could claim that none of these interpretations of the parable of D&C 101 above are correct, because these things are not in the scriptures.  But the Knowlton-Coray version are quotes from Joseph Smith himself pretty much at the very time he said them.  She was a very meticulous historian in her journals much like William Clayton.  So anyone can certainly disagree with these interpretations and try to spiritualize them away.  But the historical fact is, Joseph Smith himself seems to have interpreted the parable there in light of the fall of our nation and our return to Jackson County.  It is a little scary to think though that there may be a military conflict involved before we can take possession of Jackson County, Missouri.  Speculatively, that conflict may have something to do with the Lamanites wiping out our country as the Book of Mormon suggests, or perhaps a civil war in our country, or BOTH.  As David Whitmer said (one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon):

 

Question: When will the temple be built in Independence? 

Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over. 

Question: What do you mean by that? 

Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates and peace all over. (Interview by Dr. Poulson with David Whitmer, Deseret News, Friday, August 16, 1878)

 

 

 

The Whitmer statement clearly suggests a second civil war as the destruction of our nation.  However, the "Hancock Prophecy" suggests an invasion from without.  And the Book of Mormon suggests that the Lamanites that "will be among" us will destroy us.  Another statement that has a second hand/late recollection also suggests a civil war:

 

My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860's between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible. (A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives, letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser, July 24, 1896)

 

 

An interesting thing appears with regard to the destruction of the wicked of our nation that is attributed to Heber C. Kimball.  J. Golden Kimball, his son wrote:

 

Heber C. Kimball said it was revealed to him that the last great destruction of the wicked would be on the lakes near the Hill Cumorah." (N. B. Lundwall, Inspired prophetic warnings to all inhabitants of the earth, 1940, p. 52)

 

 

This has interesting implications for Book of Mormon Geography.  If this is true, will the wicked of our nation go to Southern Mexico to be destroyed at the Tuxtla Mountains, or will they go to New York?  It doesn't seem likely that the wicked in the last battle of a great war in our country would go into Mexico to be destroyed there.  In Heber C. Kimball's and J Golden Kimball's day there was only one Cumorah that anyone called Cumorah.  And the Lakes spoken of clearly are not lakes in Mexico, but in New York.  This is an interesting angle that Mesoamericanists probably ought to deal with in discussions about Book of Mormon Geography.  Certainly, they could try to explain away the statement recorded by J. Golden Kimball.  But it has good logic to it. Why would the wicked of our nation NOT be destroyed at the place of the ancient Cumorah as the previous nations?  That is the scriptural pattern.  Is it rational that if we are destroyed in the same manner as previous nations, will it not be so that we will probably be destroyed at Cumorah the same as they were?  Yes.  Is it not so that wherever that would take place would mark the spot of the Ancient Cumorah where the previous nations were destroyed?  yes.  What if it is New York where our nation will be destroyed?  While Book of Mormon Geography will be the last thing on people's minds at the time, it will be interesting to see.  Because if this is so, the last destruction of our nation marks the spot, and the true Cumorah will be revealed.  Anybody that has read my research on Book of Mormon Geography knows that I believe that Zarahemla was to the south of Tehuantepec, but I still believe that Cumorah was in New York.

 

Joseph Fielding Smith made a similar statement, but it was more in the context the asking of a question.  It is interesting however, that he was wondering about it:

As I stood upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah, in the midst of a vast multitude, only a few of whom belonged to the Church, I tried to picture the scenes of former days. Here were assembled vast armies filled with bitterness and bent on destruction. I thought of the great promises the Lord had made through his prophets concerning those who should possess this choice land, and how these promises were not fulfilled because the people violated his commandments. Here a people perished because of their extreme wickedness.

There must be something in the destiny of things that would cause a repetition of this terrible scene on the same spot many centuries later. I reflected and wondered if this unhappy time would ever come when another still mightier people would incur the wrath of God because of wickedness and likewise perish. If so, would this same spot witness their destruction? (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. III, p. 242)

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by DragonLancer

[DragonLancer]

Does it only have to apply to the US? 

 

No.  But it is indeed one of the applications.

[The Nehor]

It says it is about redeeming Zion, then generally referring to Missouri and is about the churches (LDS congregations).

 

Why would it apply to the USA as a whole?

[DragonLancer]

It says it is about redeeming Zion, then generally referring to Missouri and is about the churches (LDS congregations).

 

Why would it apply to the USA as a whole?

 

Because Joseph Smith said so.  Read it again: "Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground. And when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff upon which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction."

 

The war mentioned involves the whole nation.  And the redemption of Zion would be a result of the good side winning the war after the destruction of the wicked of the nation.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DragonLancer

[The Nehor]

Because Joseph Smith said so.  Read it again: "Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground. And when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff upon which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction."

 

The war mentioned involves the whole nation.  And the redemption of Zion would be a result of the good side winning the war after the destruction of the wicked of the nation.

No, Joseph was adding to a prophecy. The vineyard is still not the United States.

Also the wars of the last days will be the wicked punishing the wicked. It will not be a Saturday morning cartoon of good against evil. Wars never are. If the Russians or the Chinese or whoever attack it will be because we do not have the protection of heaven.

[strappinglad]

Could someone with experience in military campaigns please explain to some posters here the massive advantage provided by the drumlin in New York. Please include just how long it would take modern forces to overwhelm defensive positions dug into the hill top. Of course , let's assume that the armies are not fighting with bows and arrows. Please also include a map of the utilization of a quarter million defenders and their supply lines etc.

[The Nehor]

Could someone with experience in military campaigns please explain to some posters here the massive advantage provided by the drumlin in New York. Please include just how long it would take modern forces to overwhelm defensive positions dug into the hill top. Of course , let's assume that the armies are not fighting with bows and arrows. Please also include a map of the utilization of a quarter million defenders and their supply lines etc.

 

In a modern conventional battle the position of the hill would be almost useless. In a battle if civilization collapses and we are reduced to firearms without tanks, vehicles, artillery, and air support it might be of some value.

 

It is admittedly hard to say exactly. Truthfully there have not been any large-scale conventional battles between two modern developed conventional armies in some time. If there is a next war we will make a ton of mistakes and have to rewrite the book again.

 

I really doubt Mormon led a quarter of a million people into battle. Ancient Israelite organization involved tens, hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands. Most likely each tribal leader led a unit of "ten thousand" which would be whatever was left of their army. It was maybe at one point larger then a thousand but they were at the tail end of a war of heavy fighting.That would be like expecting a German battalion defending Berlin at the end of WWII to have all the personnel and assets officially assigned to them. Even if they never had more then a thousand each most likely these leaders would have called their unit a group of ten thousand and insisted on holding the title to leading such a group.

 

Mormon was the titular leader but seems to have been more the leader of a coalition then what we would envision as a military commander. One telling point is that in a letter to his son he talks about men on the Nephite side raping and then torturing women to death and eating the hearts of their enemies and laments about how debased they are but there is no mention of discipline or even some kind of formal rebuke as if Mormon had no authority in the matter. Belonged to a different ten thousand/tribe?

[DragonLancer]

Could someone with experience in military campaigns please explain to some posters here the massive advantage provided by the drumlin in New York. Please include just how long it would take modern forces to overwhelm defensive positions dug into the hill top. Of course , let's assume that the armies are not fighting with bows and arrows. Please also include a map of the utilization of a quarter million defenders and their supply lines etc.

 

The advantage of New York is not the drumlin.  The advantage is the lake, not the hill.  If you are going to be surrounded, it is better to be surrounded on only three sides, not four.  Having yourself up against a lake makes it so that you are not surrounded on every side.  When you have all of your provisions and all your population with you, then you are there ready for a siege.   And since you are up against a fresh water lake, then you have your water supply.

Edited May 5, 2015 by DragonLancer

[DragonLancer]

In a modern conventional battle the position of the hill would be almost useless. In a battle if civilization collapses and we are reduced to firearms without tanks, vehicles, artillery, and air support it might be of some value.

 

It is admittedly hard to say exactly. Truthfully there have not been any large-scale conventional battles between two modern developed conventional armies in some time. If there is a next war we will make a ton of mistakes and have to rewrite the book again.

 

I really doubt Mormon led a quarter of a million people into battle. Ancient Israelite organization involved tens, hundreds, thousands, and tens of thousands. Most likely each tribal leader led a unit of "ten thousand" which would be whatever was left of their army. It was maybe at one point larger then a thousand but they were at the tail end of a war of heavy fighting.That would be like expecting a German battalion defending Berlin at the end of WWII to have all the personnel and assets officially assigned to them. Even if they never had more then a thousand each most likely these leaders would have called their unit a group of ten thousand and insisted on holding the title to leading such a group.

 

Mormon was the titular leader but seems to have been more the leader of a coalition then what we would envision as a military commander. One telling point is that in a letter to his son he talks about men on the Nephite side raping and then torturing women to death and eating the hearts of their enemies and laments about how debased they are but there is no mention of discipline or even some kind of formal rebuke as if Mormon had no authority in the matter. Belonged to a different ten thousand/tribe?

 

No kidding.  The hill was useless militarily.  The purpose of the hill was a sacred spot for burial of records.  The lake is what was useful.  A natural barrier on one side, and a water supply.  Here is the Ojibway tradition of the Nephite genocide, by William W. Warren, an Ojibway Indian in 1858.  Though the details are not all correct, the essential tradition gives the important points, that the lake was a natural landmark that they were up against.  This tradition also indicates the geographical location of the Nephite destruction as being on THE SHORE OF ONE OF THE GREAT LAKES:

During their residence in the East, the Ojibwa have a distinct tradition of having annihilated a tribe whom they denominate Mun-dua. Their old men, whom I have questioned on this subject, do not all agree in the location nor details. Their disagreements, however, are not very material, and I will proceed to give, verbatim, the version of Kah-non-dum-a-win-so, the old chief of Sandy Lake:

 

"There was at one time living on the shores of a great lake, a numerous and powerful tribe of people; they lived congregated in one single town, which was so large that a person standing on a hill which stood in its centre, could not see the limits of It.

 

"This tribe, whose name was Mun-dua, were fierce and war-like: their hand was against every other tribe, and the captives whom they took in war were burned with fire as offerings to their spirits.

All the surrounding tribes lived in great fear of them, till their Ojibwa brothers called them to council, and sent the wampum and warclub, to collect the warriors of all the tribes with whom they were related. A war party was thus raised, whose line of warriors reached, as they marched in single file, as far as the eye could see. They proceeded against the great town of their common enemy, to put out their fire forever. They surrounded and attacked them from all quarters where their town was not bounded by the lake shore, and though overwhelming in their numbers, yet the Mun-dua had such confidence in their own force and prowess, that on the first day, they sent only their boys to repel the attack. The boys being defeated and driven back, on the second day the young men turned out to beat back their assailants. Still the O]ibwa and their allies stood their ground and gradually drove them In, till on the eve of the second day, they found themselves in possession of half the great town. The Mun-duas now became awake to their danger, and on the third day, beginning to consider It a serious business, their old and tired warriors, mighty men of valor', sang their war songs, and putting on their paints and ornaments of battle, they turned out to repel their invaders.

 

The fight this day was hand to hand. There is nothing in their traditional accounts to equal the fierceness of the struggle described in this battle. The bravest men, probably, in America, had met-one party fighting for vengeance, glory, and renown; and the other for everything dear to man, home, family, for very existence itself!

 

The Mun-dua were obliged at least to give way, and hotly pressed by their foes, women and children threw themselves into, and perished in the lake. At this juncture their aged chief, who had witnessed the unavailing defense of his people, and who saw the ground covered with the bodies of his greatest warriors, called with a loud voice on the Great Spirit for help. Besides being chief of the Mun-duas, he was also a great medicine man and juggler).

 

Being a wicked people, the Great Spirit did not listen to the prayer of their chief for deliverance.  The aged medicine man then called upon the spirits of the water and of the earth, who are under spirits of the 'Great Spirit of Evil,' and immediately a dark and heavy fog arose from the bosom of the lake, and covered in folds of darkness the site of the banquished town, and scene of the bloody battle.  The old chieftain by his voice gathered together the remnants of his slaughtered tribe, and under cover of the Evil Spirit's fog, they left their homes forever.  The whole day and ensuing night they travelled to escape from their enemies, until a gale of wind, which the medicine men of the Ojibways had asked the Great Spirit to raise, drove away the fog; the suprise of the fleeing Mun-duas was extreme when they found themselves standing on a hill back of their deserted town, and in plain view of their enemies.

 

'It is the will of the Great Spirit that we should perish', exclaimed their old chief; but once more they dragged their wearied limbs in hopeless flight. They ran into an adjacent forest where they buried the women and children in the ground, leaving but a small aperture to enable them to breathe. The men then turned back, and once more they met their pursuing foes in a last mortal combat. They fought stoutly for a while, when again overpowered by numbers, they turned and fled, but in a different direction from the spot where they had secreted their families: but a few men escaped, who afterward returned, and disinterred the women and children. This small remnant of once a powerful tribe were the next year attacked by an Ojibwa war-party, taken captive, and incorporated in this tribe. Individuals are pointed out to this day who are of Mun-dua descent, and who are members of the respected family whose totem is the Marten". (Warren, William W., 1885, History of the Ojibway People, St. Paul, Minnesota: Minnesota Historical Society, 1885, pp. 91-94).(Warren, William W., 1885, History of the Ojibway People, St. Paul, Minnesota: Minnesota Historical Society, 1885, pp. 91-94, emphasis added in Italics).

 

 

Not only does it give the detail that they were up against the lake, but that the chief was a great medicine man.  They passed on the tradition that the Nephites were a wicked people and that the Great Spirit was against them.  But they attributed the power of the great medicine man leader to evil because of propaganda.  Some details are mixed up but the critical ones are there.  A hill was in the "center" of the gathering of people, but they were up against a lake shore.  They were bounded on every side except on the side of the lake shore.  The Nephites had four years to gather provisions.  Like the time in Nephite history when they were besieged by the robbers, they learned that they had to take in all of their provisions and prepare for a long siege and hold out for as long as possible.  There were no supply lines, just supplies.  And a fresh-water lake for a water supply.  The other critical point was that the hill was a lookout point from which a person could see that the gathering area was very large, so much so, that one could hardly see the extent of it.  Yet it was a hill near a shore of one of the Great Lakes, precisely as the Palmyra area is.  Clearly, the Book of Mormon shows that the hill of Cumorah was a lookout point.  Cumorah in New York is high enough to see all the area round about.  This hill in the Great Lakes region was notable enough to deserve mention even in a Lamanite account, not just a Nephite one.

 

So, its not just Mormon tradition that identifies Cumorah in New York.  The Native Americans themselves identify Cumorah, the place of the great genocide, as being by one of the Great Lakes.  Its not just the Nephites that gave the details of the war in their record.  The Lamanites passed down the details of the war as well, specifically, the landmarks involved, and so forth.  Someone has to be pretty biased against the position of Cumorah in New York not to see the clarity of this evidence, that here is the Lamanite version of the destruction at Cumorah, giving the same essential details as the Book of Mormon, but placing it without any ambiguity in the Great Lakes region.  An interesting detail is that some of the Nephite captives were taken in and assimilated.

 

Therefore, by their own testimony, the Native Americans place the destruction of the United States of America in the United States of America, not in Mexico, because their testimony shows where they themselves destroyed the Nephites, and all its essential details.

Edited May 5, 2015 by DragonLancer

[DragonLancer]

No, Joseph was adding to a prophecy. The vineyard is still not the United States.

Also the wars of the last days will be the wicked punishing the wicked. It will not be a Saturday morning cartoon of good against evil. Wars never are. If the Russians or the Chinese or whoever attack it will be because we do not have the protection of heaven.

 

You don't need to twist my words again.  The "good guys" are the leftovers after the wicked are destroyed by the wicked.  There is nothing cartoonish, and all accounts say that the good guys are the Elders of Israel come forth later in the conflict to save the day.  Its not until most of the American army is destroyed with just the more righteous part being left that the Elders of Israel step forth.

[The Nehor]

You don't need to twist my words again.  The "good guys" are the leftovers after the wicked are destroyed by the wicked.  There is nothing cartoonish, and all accounts say that the good guys are the Elders of Israel come forth later in the conflict to save the day.  Its not until most of the American army is destroyed with just the more righteous part being left that the Elders of Israel step forth.

 

I see no reason to believe this prophecy refers to military action. It seems to be the Elders standing up to save principles, not leading men into battle.

 

I am dubious about the prophecy in general though. It is the modern equivalent of an apocryphal work. Joseph had every opportunity to publish what he wished to future generations and he did not include this stuff with what he passed down. It survives in journal entries. The final arbiter of what Joseph said is Joseph not his friends or his enemies who may through well-meaning or malice distort what he said.

 

The greatest gospel teacher I have ever known taught me that the truths of the gospel are hidden in the words of the prophets and the scriptures. Feasting on them will yield both the simple things and the mysteries of the gospel. Turning elsewhere is getting further from truth no matter how exciting or interesting they may be. The need for gospel novelty is best served with new insights from pure sources and not hunting through old journals and hearsay accounts to find new information. I admit I do both but I treat the latter with skepticism.

[DragonLancer]

I see no reason to believe this prophecy refers to military action. It seems to be the Elders standing up to save principles, not leading men into battle.

 

I am dubious about the prophecy in general though. It is the modern equivalent of an apocryphal work. Joseph had every opportunity to publish what he wished to future generations and he did not include this stuff with what he passed down. It survives in journal entries. The final arbiter of what Joseph said is Joseph not his friends or his enemies who may through well-meaning or malice distort what he said.

 

The greatest gospel teacher I have ever known taught me that the truths of the gospel are hidden in the words of the prophets and the scriptures. Feasting on them will yield both the simple things and the mysteries of the gospel. Turning elsewhere is getting further from truth no matter how exciting or interesting they may be. The need for gospel novelty is best served with new insights from pure sources and not hunting through old journals and hearsay accounts to find new information. I admit I do both but I treat the latter with skepticism.

 

You can believe about it whatever you want.  It isn't in the scriptures, but it is as solid as anything in Church History.  Unfortunately for your overconfidence in your proclamation that this is just apocryphal by your word only, the details of all truth are not in the scriptures, only the critical ones for salvation.  Again, as I have said in other threads, the only difference between truths inside the scriptures and truths outside the scriptures is that we are bound by those inside the scriptures.  But those outside the scriptures do not stop being true just because we declare them to be so because of unbelief.  There is no eternal consequence for lack of belief in them because we are not bound by them.  But there is a consequence that we have limited our understanding of available truth to us.  And that is what I say you have done to yourself in your rejection of this evidence.

[The Nehor]

You can believe about it whatever you want.  It isn't in the scriptures, but it is as solid as anything in Church History.  Unfortunately for your overconfidence in your proclamation that this is just apocryphal by your word only, the details of all truth are not in the scriptures, only the critical ones for salvation.  Again, as I have said in other threads, the only difference between truths inside the scriptures and truths outside the scriptures is that we are bound by those inside the scriptures.  But those outside the scriptures do not stop being true just because we declare them to be so because of unbelief.  There is no eternal consequence for lack of belief in them because we are not bound by them.  But there is a consequence that we have limited our understanding of available truth to us.  And that is what I say you have done to yourself in your rejection of this evidence.

 

I never claimed to reject it. I treat it as apocryphal. God has not testified of the truthfulness of it to me. I read it, think "neat", maybe speculate a little, and then move on.

 

Is the same thing true of someone who rejects the "I never said it would be easy. I only said it would be worth it." mantra? Technically that is unbelief. And what do you think of the Book of Tobit? Do you accept it uncritically or do you cut yourself off from truth because of your unbelief?

[DragonLancer]

I never claimed to reject it. I treat it as apocryphal. God has not testified of the truthfulness of it to me. I read it, think "neat", maybe speculate a little, and then move on.

 

Is the same thing true of someone who rejects the "I never said it would be easy. I only said it would be worth it." mantra? Technically that is unbelief. And what do you think of the Book of Tobit? Do you accept it uncritically or do you cut yourself off from truth because of your unbelief?

 

I accept anything that the Spirit testifies of truth to me from any source, and treat them critically, not accepting anything hook line and sinker.  Of course I am the same as you in this respect.  But your previous words in your previous messages made it sound like you have no willingness to test this thing from Joseph Smith by the Spirit, but that you were simply rejecting it for the sake of rejecting it.  I hope you will get the spirit to testify to you of Joseph Smith's words in that Journal.  Whatever you choose, I feel as if most of the time you say what you say just to contradict me.  It's difficult to feel like there is anything I can ever say that you will agree with.

Edited May 5, 2015 by DragonLancer

[The Nehor]

I accept anything that the Spirit testifies of truth to me from any source, and treat them critically, not accepting anything hook line and sinker.  Of course I am the same as you in this respect.  But your previous words in your previous messages made it sound like you have no willingness to test this thing from Joseph Smith by the Spirit, but that you were simply rejecting it for the sake of rejecting it.  I hope you will get the spirit to testify to you of Joseph Smith's words in that Journal.  Whatever you choose, I feel as if most of the time you say what you say just to contradict me.  It's difficult to feel like there is anything I can ever say that you will agree with.

I have not rejected it. I have no strong feelings one way or the other. I do reject a lot of the Mormon pop-culture theories as to how it will supposedly come about. I have read the bit a few times and no spiritual confirmation yet. I am not worried.

If you say Jesus is the Christ I will back you up on that. Sound good?

[rodheadlee]

Does it only have to apply to the US? 

No, your home country.

[rodheadlee]

Dragon Lancer, thanks for taking the time to post. Does anyone else have something to say about the parable?

Edited May 5, 2015 by rodheadlee

[PeterPear]

It has to do with each one of us. Faith and Obedience.

 

Very few see the "big picture" but Verse 62 is the test for each of us as individuals.

[Vance]

 

The Independent American Party that is a far right party that organized itself in 1998, that is allied with the Constitution Party and other "Tea Party" groups . . .

 

So, do I have this right?  The American "far right" is "allied with the Constitution Party"?

 

Didn't the Lord say "And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood."

 

Kind of sounds like the American "far right" is allied with the Lord on this one.

 

Just sayin.

 

[Vance]

This has interesting implications for Book of Mormon Geography.

Only when you read things into peoples statements that aren't there.

 

Do you think that  1 Nephi 13:12

And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

Has interesting implications for Book of Mormon Geography?

 

Just sayin.

[strappinglad]

I forget. What year was it that Columbus sailed into New York harbor? Wait, that man among the gentiles really refers to Leif Erickson and we should be looking for Cumorah in Newfoundland.

[carbon dioxide]

 

This seems to be the intent of the "Hancock Prophecy" as well, where Mosiah Lyman Hancock reportedly recorded in his autobiography what Joseph Smith said back in 1844 (but Hancock apparently recorded it decades afterward):

 

The Independent American Party that is a far right party that organized itself in 1998, that is allied with the Constitution Party and other "Tea Party" groups conveniently named itself by this name intentionally because the creators of the party wanted to be the fulfillment of this prophecy.  There are some problems here though, because it is a late recollection.  Nevertheless, the context here is exactly what we see from the Knowlton Coray version of the Constitution Hanging by a Thread prophecy above, as well as the Parley P. Pratt version.  And Hancock records here that there would be a military conflict at the time of that the country's liberty would "hang by a hair."  This is unmistakably another version/account of the Constitution Hanging by a Thread, and it seems to indicate a military conflict in the redemption of Zion/Jackson County.

I find a striking similarity between what Joseph Smith is alleged to have said in Mosiah Hancock diary and a claimed vision of George Washington.  That vision is from a third hand source so many discount it being real.  Regardless both are independent of each other.  One did not inspire the other.

 

Joseph Smith:

 

“The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States”, then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U.S. Army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up-when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin.  And they will say, ‘Brethren, we are glad you have come, give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God’. Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when it’s liberty hangs by a hair, as it were.”

 

Angel vision to George Washington (3rd Peril for America):

 

"Again, I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the republic, look and learn.' At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia, and Africa." "Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene. From each of these continents arose thick black clouds that were soon joined into one. And through this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men. These men, moving with the cloud, marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of the cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities which I had seen springing up." "As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I again heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.' When this voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast."

 

 

"Instantly a light as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments the dark cloud which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shown the word 'Union' and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits.  These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well-nigh overcome, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks and renewed the battle." "Again, amid the fearful noise of the conflict I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.' As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious."

 

The whole Washington vision can be read http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/vision.html

Edited May 7, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

So, do I have this right?  The American "far right" is "allied with the Constitution Party"?

 

Didn't the Lord say "And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood."

 

Kind of sounds like the American "far right" is allied with the Lord on this one.

 

Just sayin.

 

 

And since they have Constitution in their name that must mean they are perfectly in harmony with it.

 

Just like Hitler's socialist party, the National Socialist German Worker's Party, was obsessed with social justice, the plight of the worker, and advancing socialist economic policies and not world domination and how the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is definitely a democratic republic since it is in the name you see.