What Is The Meaning Of The Parable Of The Nobleman And The Olive Trees?

[DragonLancer]

So, do I have this right?  The American "far right" is "allied with the Constitution Party"?

 

Didn't the Lord say "And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood."

 

Kind of sounds like the American "far right" is allied with the Lord on this one.

 

Just sayin.

 

 

Not at all.  The Lord is allied with good governance in line with constitutional principles, not with extremists that take upon themselves a certain name to make people believe they are somehow endowed with the essence of a document.

[DragonLancer]

Only when you read things into peoples statements that aren't there.

 

Do you think that  1 Nephi 13:12

 

 

Has interesting implications for Book of Mormon Geography?

 

Just sayin.

 

What is no there.  The statement is plain.

Yes, Columbus did land in the general land of Zarahemla in my belief, so yes, it does have implications for Book of Mormon Geography.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#/media/File:Viajes_de_colon_en.svg

[DragonLancer]

I find a striking similarity between what Joseph Smith is alleged to have said in Mosiah Hancock diary and a claimed vision of George Washington.  That vision is from a third hand source so many discount it being real.  Regardless both are independent of each other.  One did not inspire the other.

 

Joseph Smith:

 

“The United States will spend her strength and means warring in foreign lands until other nations will say, “Let’s divide up the lands of the United States”, then the people of the U.S. will unite and swear by the blood of their fore-fathers, that the land shall not be divided. Then the country will go to war, and they will fight until one half of the U.S. Army will give up, and the rest will continue to struggle. They will keep on until they are very ragged and discouraged, and almost ready to give up-when the boys from the mountains will rush forth in time to save the American Army from defeat and ruin.  And they will say, ‘Brethren, we are glad you have come, give us men, henceforth, who can talk with God’. Then you will have friends, but you will save the country when it’s liberty hangs by a hair, as it were.”

 

Angel vision to George Washington (3rd Peril for America):

 

"Again, I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the republic, look and learn.' At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia, and Africa." "Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene. From each of these continents arose thick black clouds that were soon joined into one. And through this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men. These men, moving with the cloud, marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of the cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities which I had seen springing up." "As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I again heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.' When this voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast."

 

 

"Instantly a light as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments the dark cloud which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shown the word 'Union' and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits.  These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well-nigh overcome, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks and renewed the battle." "Again, amid the fearful noise of the conflict I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.' As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious."

 

The whole Washington vision can be read http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/vision.html

 

I actually have seen this as well, and noticed the parallel as well a number of years ago, but in this case, like the feelings of Nehor on other things, I have to admit that this purported vision is apocryphal and I don't know if I should believe it just because it has a parallel.  But yes, it is a very obvious parallel.  It isn't the only parallel.  The invasion from without is a parallel as well.  It is a very good fit.

 

I would love to believe this, but if only it had a better provenance.  From what I heard, it was a late recollection from some soldier when he was very old.  The accounts from Joseph Smith, in contrast, such as the Knowlton-Coray account earlier in this thread was at least written down close to the time that it happened.  I guess there may be a kernel of truth here, but I don't want to have too much hope, because it is unlikely that the vision is transmitted the way it was really received.  In the end, I guess the Holy Ghost would manifest truth again in this case too.  But just because there is truth doesn't mean every detail is true.

[Vance]

And since they have Constitution in their name that must mean they are perfectly in harmony with it.

 Although in general that is a possibility, in this case it appears otherwise.  Just look at their party platform and see if they are promoting something that would be anti-constitutional.  (Regardless of what you find, I suspect that they are more aligned with the Constitution than one or more of the more established parties.)

 

Just like Hitler's socialist party, the National Socialist German Worker's Party, was obsessed with social justice, the plight of the worker, and advancing socialist economic policies and not world domination and how the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is definitely a democratic republic since it is in the name you see.

Socialism, of any type, isn't about "social justice", whatever that is supposed to mean.  It is about the accumulation of power (and wealth).  The fact is, the power to "redistribute wealth" is the power to confiscate it from the producers and then funnel it any where you want, even into your own pockets.  That kind of power can't be trusted to any government officials, ever.

 

It always, in reality, comes down to two conditions, liberty or tyranny.  Socialism, of any type, promotes tyranny, not liberty.  The condition of liberty has been very rare throughout history.  We are quickly reverting to the norm.  And you are not going to like it.

[Vance]

What is no there.  The statement is plain.

Most of what you presumed and inferred from and about those statements was not in them.

 

Given the technology of the time, the logistics alone of moving two large of armies from (your) Zarahemla to the Cumorah in NY to do battle is unreasonable and, therefore, quite frankly, unbelievable.

 

But hey, to each his own.

[The Nehor]

 Although in general that is a possibility, in this case it appears otherwise.  Just look at their party platform and see if they are promoting something that would be anti-constitutional.  (Regardless of what you find, I suspect that they are more aligned with the Constitution than one or more of the more established parties.)

 

They are aligned with a fairy-tale view of the Constitution. I will give them that.

 

http://www.theonion.com/article/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c-2849

 

 

 Socialism, of any type, isn't about "social justice", whatever that is supposed to mean.  It is about the accumulation of power (and wealth). 

 

Funny......that perfectly describes capitalism. Search for wealth and power. Are they really that similar?

 

Social justice is the idea that everyone should have the same political, economic, and social opportunities. Many scorn the concept. Most of those who do are under the delusion that we already have it. They are wrong.

 

The fact is, the power to "redistribute wealth" is the power to confiscate it from the producers and then funnel it any where you want, even into your own pockets.  That kind of power can't be trusted to any government officials, ever.

 

You heard it here first folks. Taxation is pure evil. Whether it goes to roads, military spending, or whatever no government official can be trusted with that power ever.

 

It always, in reality, comes down to two conditions, liberty or tyranny.  Socialism, of any type, promotes tyranny, not liberty.  The condition of liberty has been very rare throughout history.  We are quickly reverting to the norm.  And you are not going to like it.

 

Actually it comes down to multiple conditions and a scale within all of them. Socialism is not pure evil and capitalism is not pure good. Government can be oppressive if too powerful but if government is too weak it allows others to oppress.

 

I don't like it now. We have become a nation of weak-minded idiots convinced that some kind of abstract political ideological purity gives will automatically fix complex problems and will usher in some kind of golden age instead of seeking out practical solutions to real problems. God help us when the politicians start listening to us.

[DragonLancer]

Most of what you presumed and inferred from and about those statements was not in them.

 

Given the technology of the time, the logistics alone of moving two large of armies from (your) Zarahemla to the Cumorah in NY to do battle is unreasonable and, therefore, quite frankly, unbelievable.

 

But hey, to each his own.

 

You obviously have an old-school perception of the current state of the arguments about the New York Cumorah from what you have just said.  So I wouldn't expect you to be in the know or understand the actual updated scholarship in favor of a New York Cumorah.  Therefore, it is understandable why it is not believable to you.  So, you are making that statement out of ignorance, not understanding.

Edited May 7, 2015 by DragonLancer

[Vance]

Not at all.  The Lord is allied with good governance in line with constitutional principles, not with extremists that take upon themselves a certain name to make people believe they are somehow endowed with the essence of a document.

Well then, that certainly excludes all those on the left and far left and even most of the middle.

 

The sad fact is most people have no clue what "constitutional principles" are.  I suspect that you are among them.

[Vance]

They are aligned with a fairy-tale view of the Constitution. I will give them that.

 

http://www.theonion.com/article/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c-2849

 

Well, if that is your argument, then you fail miserably.

 

1) No mention of the man's party affiliation.  For all we know he could be a member of YOUR political party.

 

2) It is OBVIOUS that it is the author "whose understanding of the Constitution derives not from a close reading of the document but from talk-show pundits, books by television personalities, and the limitless expanse of his own colorful imagination."

 

They call that psychological projection.

[Vance]

Funny......that perfectly describes capitalism. Search for wealth and power. Are they really that similar?

Capitalism can be either good or evil, that is why I support "FREE ENTERPRISE".

 

Social justice is the idea that everyone should have the same political, economic, and social opportunities.

If only that were true. But sadly it is just another big lie.  "Social justice" has come to mean racial and social shake down by race and poverty pimps.  Nothing more.

 

Many scorn the concept. Most of those who do are under the delusion that we already have it. They are wrong.

Many do scorn the race and poverty hustlers.  That is true, and for good reason.

 

Is it "social justice" to extort from the producer to give to the indolent?  That is what it has turned into.

 

You heard it here first folks. Taxation is pure evil. Whether it goes to roads, military spending, or whatever no government official can be trusted with that power ever.

The fact that you are misrepresenting what I said is prima facie evidence that you have lost the argument.

 

Socialism is not pure evil . . .

Actually it is.  And the reason is that it is based upon untruths among other things.  It, by its very definition is doomed to ALWAYS fail.

 

Always has and always will.

 

. . .and capitalism is not pure good.

 

Good thing I haven't been defending it then isn't it!

 

Government can be oppressive if too powerful but if government is too weak it allows others to oppress.

Yeah, and so?

 

Government using coercion to force me to pay for something that offends my reasonable religious sensibilities is definitely tyranny.  The state in which we now live.

 

I don't like it now. We have become a nation of weak-minded idiots convinced that some kind of abstract political ideological purity gives will automatically fix complex problems and will usher in some kind of golden age instead of seeking out practical solutions to real problems. God help us when the politicians start listening to us.

The founders had it right.  The principles of good government established by the constitution could only govern a righteous people.  We, as a nation, are no longer righteous.  Tyranny is what we have to look forward to, until and unless, the nation repents and accepts the laws of God, or we, as a nation, are destroyed.  I suspect the latter is coming.

[The Nehor]

Well, if that is your argument, then you fail miserably.

 

1) No mention of the man's party affiliation.  For all we know he could be a member of YOUR political party.

 

2) It is OBVIOUS that it is the author "whose understanding of the Constitution derives not from a close reading of the document but from talk-show pundits, books by television personalities, and the limitless expanse of his own colorful imagination."

 

They call that psychological projection.

1) Doubtful, I don't have a political party. I would join the Rhinoceros Party but it is Canadian and is no longer around.

2) No, it is called the knowledgeable mocking the ignorant. Of course due to the Dunning-Kruger effect the ignorant then attempt to mock the knowledgeable and even think they are winning which is sad.

[rodheadlee]

Knock off the politics. If you have something constructive to say about the parable and how it applies to us, carry on.

[The Nehor]

Knock off the politics. If you have something constructive to say about the parable and how it applies to us, carry on.

If I am not banned from 3 threads a week I have been slacking off.

[strappinglad]

If I am not banned from 3 threads a week I have been slacking off.

I admire your hutzpah The Nehor. I feel bad about somehow being banned from one thread in 2 years. To get back to the OP, as with all parables, there are several probable interpretations and fulfillments over time. It may refer to the primitive church and the apostasy. It may also refer to an individual life wherein we were cleansed at baptism and over time allowed , through apathy, the world to intrude and destroy our productiveness .

[Vance]

1) Doubtful, I don't have a political party. I would join the Rhinoceros Party but it is Canadian and is no longer around.

2) No, it is called the knowledgeable mocking the ignorant. Of course due to the Dunning-Kruger effect the ignorant then attempt to mock the knowledgeable and even think they are winning which is sad.

1) For all we know, he is just like you, without a political party.  But my point remains, your attempt at smearing the Constitution Party (of which I am not a member) by associating them (falsely) with that ignoramus failed.

 

2) Actually it was one ignoramus making fun of another.

[The Nehor]

1) For all we know, he is just like you, without a political party.  But my point remains, your attempt at smearing the Constitution Party (of which I am not a member) by associating them (falsely) with that ignoramus failed.

 

2) Actually it was one ignoramus making fun of another.

You do know that article was a joke right?

[Vance]

You do know that article was a joke right?

Okay, so it was written by a left leaning ignoramus trying to be funny.

 

And your whole counter argument was a joke as well.

 

LOL!!!  You got me.

 

I should have know you weren't THAT stupid.

[The Nehor]

Okay, so it was written by a left leaning ignoramus trying to be funny.

 

And your whole counter argument was a joke as well.

 

LOL!!!  You got me.

 

I should have know you weren't THAT stupid.

 

Anyone who read that blatantly overwrought article and thought it was authentic has no business using the word ignoramus as a pejorative.

[Vance]

Anyone who read that blatantly overwrought article and thought it was authentic has no business using the word ignoramus as a pejorative.

It is a good thing that from the beginning I knew it had no scholarly value.  Thus the comment that it was written by an ignoramus.  Where I got taken in was for me to think that you considered it a legitimate argument.

 

And I agree that those that did and do take it serious are also ignoramuses.

 

Just like these,

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002878273

[The Nehor]

It is a good thing that from the beginning I knew it had no scholarly value.  Thus the comment that it was written by an ignoramus.  Where I got taken in was for me to think that you considered it a legitimate argument.

 

And I agree that those that did and do take it serious are also ignoramuses.

 

Just like these,

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002878273

It was a joke, a caricature. Not only does it not have scholarly value it was never meant to. It was meant to make people laugh and pretty much everyone who reads it does chuckle. That you thought I thought it was legitimate suggests there is something wrong with you. Are you this gullible generally? If so I have some beachfront property in Arizona you might be interested in.

[Vance]

It was a joke, a caricature. Not only does it not have scholarly value it was never meant to. It was meant to make people laugh and pretty much everyone who reads it does chuckle. That you thought I thought it was legitimate suggests there is something wrong with you. Are you this gullible generally? If so I have some beachfront property in Arizona you might be interested in.

For something to be humorous it has to have an element of truth to it.  The fact that you thought it was funny is telling.

[The Nehor]

For something to be humorous it has to have an element of truth to it.  The fact that you thought it was funny is telling.

Indeed, it tells all that I understand and cane identify intentionally overdone caricatures. When someone who is one of those caricatures reads the article it just does not work as well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For something to be humorous it has to have an element of truth to it.  The fact that you thought it was funny is telling.

You should forget about the article in the Onion. Stick it to Nehor to defend socialism and modern social justice.

[The Nehor]

You should forget about the article in the Onion. Stick it to Nehor to defend socialism and modern social justice.

I am not defending socialism. I am saying capitalism is not much better. I would like to see a melding of the two until the Savior returns and we can stop the hate filled vitriol over economics.....one of the least important realities of our world.

I do defend social justice. We can pretend racism and prejudice are dead and opportunity is equally available to all but we would be lying. There is a comic element to white relatively well-heeled religious people going to pieces over compulsive cake baking as being intolerant and unfair while our nation's highest incarceration rate in history and disproportionately minority dominated prison system is a non-issue and all attempts to examine it are thinly veiled attempts to waste money. Almost as if they only care about oppression if they are the ones being oppressed. Hmmmmmmm.......odd that.

 

The next guy talking politics will be thread banned or the thread will be closed.

[theplains]

 

So, the people fleeing Nauvoo and coming to the Rocky Mountains was a partial fulfillment of this prophecy by Joseph Smith.  However, the rest of it regarding the fall of the United States in conjunction with the Constitution hanging by a Thread prophecy has yet to be fulfilled.  And it is interesting that it is saying that the saints from foreign nations would come to the US to fight militarily in the battle, to redeem Jackson County Missouri.

 

The Coming of the Lord by Gerald N. Lund on scribd has some interesting LDS teachings on the

Second Coming.  It seems they had disregarded what Joseph Smith said about the saints re-taking

that land by force.  Apparently some disaster would happen in the east to allow the saints from

Salt Lake to basically travel there unabated.

 

Regards,

Jim