"the Church Has Never Been Stronger" -- Elder Cook

[Scott Lloyd]

Again only an anectdote...in my area we have one of the small temples. It is not busy, it sits empty more hours than full. Many of the sessions have only a few people in them and they often have temple workers participating.  Increasing attendance has been a constant theme, almost since the temple has been built and it has been around for a while.  

 

I wonder if other small temples that serve areas with sparse LDS populations like mine struggle as well.

I don't know where you live, but I covered the groundbreaking for the first of the smaller temples in our current era, the Monticello Utah Temple.

 

At the time, it was stated by President Hinckley when he announced the concept in general conference, that the smaller temples were being specifically designed for areas of the Church where the membership was relatively sparse but where the members otherwise might not have convenient access to a temple. He stated that such temples would likely be open during limited hours of the day or week, perhaps by appointment only.

 

If that's what is happening where such smaller temples exist, I don't know that it amounts to a failure in the objectives for which the temple was built or an indication that the temple is "struggling," as you put it. Nor do I see that as a sign of weakening in the Church.

 

And increasing temple attendance has been a constant theme wherever I have lived, including areas where the temples are busy.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Gray]

I already dealt with this in a post earlier in this thread.

 

In that post, I theorized that perhaps Elder Jensen, as were many others, might have been influenced and rattled in this regard to some degree by John Dehlin, with whom Elder Jensen reportedly was having interaction at that time.

 

But thank you for providing the quote. It has helped me see that it was not Elder Jensen who used the phrase "leaving in droves." Rather, it was a woman who posed a question to him during a Q and A.

 

Seeing it in context, I'm thinking now that in his eagerness to be responsive, Elder Jensen might not have been inclined to correct her phrasing. Rather, he was hastening to assure her that the high leadership of the Church were aware and do care that some people are being troubled by what is on the Internet and the Church leaders are taking steps to deal with that condition (including, as it turned out later, the publication of the now-famous essays on lds.org).

 

 

 

Well, that's conjecture. All we have is what Elder Jensen said. 

[Gervin]

I already did. A reduction by more than half would fall under the description "great" to a reasonable mind.

I wasn't clear; how does the author define "greatly?"

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, that's conjecture. All we have is what Elder Jensen said. 

And, as it turned out, he didn't say "leaving the Church in droves."

 

I think that is a substantial point.

[Scott Lloyd]

I wasn't clear; how does the author define "greatly?"

He gave facts that, to a reasonable mind, could be regarded as a great reduction.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Gray]

And, as it turned out, he didn't say "leaving the Church in droves."

 

I think that is a substantial point.

 

He said "We are aware [that people are leaving the church in droves]."

 

That's really what he said accounting for the context of what the question was. 

 

As I said though, "droves" is hardly an objective figure. 

[Scott Lloyd]

He said "We are aware [that people are leaving the church in droves]."

 

That's really what he said accounting for the context of what the question was. 

 

As I said though, "droves" is hardly an objective figure. 

In context, my reading is that his eager intent was to assure the woman that her concerns were getting attention, not to confirm what she was (apparently) saying about a mass exodus from the Church.

 

I think my reading is just as plausible as yours.

 

Edited to add:

 

Bear in mind that  this was an off-the-cuff exchange, and it is sometimes difficult on the spur of the moment to gauge the logical implications of one's words, the antecedents, the propensity for comprehension on the part of the audience, etc. If, on the other hand, the message has been written out and has likely gone through two or more drafts before being delivered -- as was probably the case with Elder Cook's general conference sermon -- the message is far more likely to be impeccably worded.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

I don't know where you live, but I covered the groundbreaking for the first of the smaller temples in our current era, the Monticello Utah Temple.

 

At the time, it was stated by President Hinckley when he announced the concept in general conference, that the smaller temples were being specifically designed for areas of the Church where the membership was relatively sparse but where the members otherwise might not have convenient access to a temple. He stated that such temples would likely be open during limited hours of the day or week, perhaps by appointment only.

 

If that's what is happening where such smaller temples exist, I don't know that it amounts to a failure in the objectives for which the temple was built or an indication that the temple is "struggling," as you put it. Nor do I see that as a sign of weakening in the Church.

 

And increasing temple attendance has been a constant theme wherever I have lived, including areas where the temples are busy.

 

We knew that the temples would be opened a limited number of hours but even so the temple attendance is much less than anticipated.  Whether struggle is the correct word or not I do not know. All I know is the temple presidents have not been happy with what they perceive is attendance below what they would like to see at least for our temple.  On the other hand I have noted when this has been brought up that while the over all attendance may not be where the local leaders may like it for the temple district the over all temple attendance is up.   Where some members went once or twice a year due to distance before they may go four time a year, every month or many time a month so that has been a positive.

See.... I can be positive.  

[ALarson]

 

I already dealt with this in a post earlier in this thread.

 

In that post, I theorized that perhaps Elder Jensen, as were many others, might have been influenced and rattled in this regard to some degree by John Dehlin, with whom Elder Jensen reportedly was having interaction at that time.

 

 

It doesn't seem to me that Elder Jensen was rattled.  Of course one would have to ask him to know for sure.

 

Here's the entire quote:

 

“The fifteen men really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, “Answers to Gospel Questions”. We are trying to figure out exactly what channels to deliver it in and exactly what format to put it in. But we want to have a place where people can go. We have hired someone that’s in charge of search engine optimization. We realize that people get their information basically from Google. They don’t come to LDS.org. If they get there, it’s through Google. So, we are trying to create an offering that will address these issues and be available for the public at large and to the church leaders, because many of them don’t have answers either. It can be very disappointing to church members. And, for people who are losing their faith, or who have lost it, we hope to regain to the church.”

Edited April 7, 2015 by ALarson

[Gray]

In context, my reading is that his eager intent was to assure the woman that her concerns were getting attention, not to confirm what she was (apparently) saying about a mass exodus from the Church.

 

I think my reading is just as plausible as yours.

 

Edited to add:

 

Bear in mind that  this was an off-the-cuff exchange, and it is sometimes difficult on the spur of the moment to gauge the logical implications of one's words, the antecedents, the propensity for comprehension on the part of the audience, etc. If, on the other hand, the message has been written out and has likely gone through two or more drafts before being delivered -- as was probably the case with Elder Cook's general conference sermon -- the message is far more likely to be impeccably worded.

 

Well, my reading requires no speculative interpretation. But you could be right.

 

Still, given his followup comments about the period of apostasy we're in, I think he was on board with the "droves" comment. 

Edited April 7, 2015 by Gray

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, my reading requires no speculative interpretation. But you could be right.

 

 

If he himself had used the phrase "leaving in droves," your reading would have been definitive. But he didn't, and it's not.

 

Still, given his followup comments about the period of apostasy we're in, I think he was on board with the "droves" comment.

 

You may have a point there. In which case my theory about him having been alarmed and misled by Dehlin would come into play.

 

If you accept Dehlin's own account of his interaction with Elder Jensen, I would say Elder Jensen was giving Dehlin far more credence that Dehlin deserved. In light of subsequent events, that is even more apparent today than back then.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

In context, my reading is that his eager intent was to assure the woman that her concerns were getting attention, not to confirm what she was (apparently) saying about a mass exodus from the Church.

 

I think my reading is just as plausible as yours.

 

Edited to add:

 

Bear in mind that  this was an off-the-cuff exchange, and it is sometimes difficult on the spur of the moment to gauge the logical implications of one's words, the antecedents, the propensity for comprehension on the part of the audience, etc. If, on the other hand, the message has been written out and has likely gone through two or more drafts before being delivered -- as was probably the case with Elder Cook's general conference sermon -- the message is far more likely to be impeccably worded.

Be that as it may, it is also relevant to point out that he went on to say "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now." This statement adds relative context and supports the idea that many more people than usual were apostatizing than in the past. 

 

Edit: Looks like ALarson and Gray already made this point.

Edited April 7, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding

[ALarson]

If he himself had used the phrase "leaving in droves," your reading would have been definitive. But he didn't, and it's not.

 

You may have a point there. In which case my theory about him having been alarmed and misled by Dehlin would come into play.

 

Unless Elder Jensen has confirmed that he was rattled, it's still just a theory.  Has he ever spoken about this after it happened?

Edited April 7, 2015 by ALarson

[rockpond]

 

 

 

 

It doesn't seem to me that Elder Jensen was rattled.  Of course one would have to ask him to know for sure.

 

Here's the entire quote:

 

“The fifteen men really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, “Answers to Gospel Questions”. We are trying to figure out exactly what channels to deliver it in and exactly what format to put it in. But we want to have a place where people can go. We have hired someone that’s in charge of search engine optimization. We realize that people get their information basically from Google. They don’t come to LDS.org. If they get there, it’s through Google. So, we are trying to create an offering that will address these issues and be available for the public at large and to the church leaders, because many of them don’t have answers either. It can be very disappointing to church members. And, for people who are losing their faith, or who have lost it, we hope to regain to the church.”

 

 

Seems like he was associating what he feels is currently a period of apostasy and the Brethren's knowledge of it with what was later published as the Gospel Topics essays.

[Scott Lloyd]

Be that as it may, it is also relevant to point out that he went on to say "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now." This statement adds relative context and supports the idea that many more people than usual were apostatizing than in the past. 

 

Edit: Looks like ALarson and Gray already made this point.

See my response to Gray, in which I acknowledged he may have a point there, but reiterated that he may have been somewhat misled by Dehlin.

[Scott Lloyd]

Unless Elder Jensen has confirmed that he was rattled, it's still just a theory.  Has he ever spoken about this after it happened?

I don't know.

 

Has he come forward to contradict Elder Cook since Elder Cook spoke on Sunday? Do you expect he will?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Seems like he was associating what he feels is currently a period of apostasy and the Brethren's knowledge of it with what was later published as the Gospel Topics essays.

Well, in conformance with what Elder Cook said about souls being precious, the Gospel Topics essays would have been a worthwhile move whether or not the rate of apostasy is greater today than in the past.

[ALarson]

See my response to Gray, in which I acknowledged he may have a point there, but reiterated that he may have been somewhat misled by Dehlin.

You're giving John Dehlin a lot of power or at least influence.  If I were Elder Jensen, I wouldn't like or appreciate your theory.  I think Elder Jensen knew what he was saying and was trying to speak the truth from what his experience had been.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

You're giving John Dehlin a lot of power or at least influence.

I'm going by what Dehlin himself reported. According to Dehlin, he was meeting with Elder Jensen and, by some accounts, Elder Jensen was instrumental in getting Gerald Bradford to kill the Mormon Studies Review piece by Greg Smith about Dehlin.

 

 

If I were Elder Jensen, I wouldn't like or appreciate your theory.  I think Elder Jensen knew what he was saying and was trying to speak the truth from what his experience had been.

 

I know Elder Jensen (I was going to say "on a first-name basis," but I would never address him as other than "Elder Jensen") and I'm fairly confident he would not like or appreciate your pitting his words against those of Elder Cook.

[ALarson]

I'm going by what Dehlin himself reported. According to Dehlin, he was meeting with Elder Jensen and, by some accounts, Elder Jensen was instrumental in getting Gerald Bradford to kill the Mormon Studies Review piece by Greg Smith about Dehlin.

So now you believe what Dehlin has stated?

 

 

I know Elder Jensen (I was going to say "on a first-name basis," but I would never address him as other than "Elder Jensen") and I'm fairly confident he would not like or appreciate your pitting his words against those of Elder Cook.

I have not done that.  If I have, it wasn't intentional.  Can you quote me and show me where I did this?  Pitted Elder Jensen's words against Elder Cook's?  

 

I've simply stated that I didn't think that Elder Jensen was rattled when he made his statement.  

Edited April 7, 2015 by ALarson

[Teancum]

I don't know where you live, but I covered the groundbreaking for the first of the smaller temples in our current era, the Monticello Utah Temple.

 

At the time, it was stated by President Hinckley when he announced the concept in general conference, that the smaller temples were being specifically designed for areas of the Church where the membership was relatively sparse but where the members otherwise might not have convenient access to a temple. He stated that such temples would likely be open during limited hours of the day or week, perhaps by appointment only.

 

If that's what is happening where such smaller temples exist, I don't know that it amounts to a failure in the objectives for which the temple was built or an indication that the temple is "struggling," as you put it. Nor do I see that as a sign of weakening in the Church.

 

And increasing temple attendance has been a constant theme wherever I have lived, including areas where the temples are busy.

 

 

Also my point was not that the Church is weakened because of lower attendance at the small temples. I noted it may actually increase overall endowments, etc.  My point was it is very different than the very busy Wasatch Front temples. That is all. Nothing sinister about it.

[Scott Lloyd]

So now you believe what Dehlin has stated?

Based on all I have seen or read from various accounts, I don't have any reason to doubt he did have some personal interaction with Elder Jensen.

 

I have not done that.  If I have, it wasn't intentional.  Can you quote me and show me where I did this?  Pitted Elder Jensen's words against Elder Cook's?

From the beginning of this thread, you have resisted believing Elder Cook's statement in general conference. Now, it seems you have given Elder Jensen's prior remarks as part of the reason for that resistance. What else am I to conclude?

 

I've simply stated that I didn't think that Elder Jensen was rattled when he made his statement.

And I've only expressed a theory. Edited April 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Well, in conformance with what Elder Cook said about souls being precious, the Gospel Topics essays would have been a worthwhile move whether or not the rate of apostasy is greater today than in the past.

 

Based on the supposed goals of the gospel topics essays, I agree.  I think there has been some undesired outcomes from those essays.

[ALarson]

Based on all I have seen or read from various accounts, I don't have any reason to doubt he did have some personal interaction with Elder Jensen.

And influenced him so greatly that it rattled Elder Jensen and influenced his response?  That's your theory?

 

 

From the beginning of this thread, you have resisted believing Elder Cook's statement in general conference. Now, it seems you have Elder Jensen's prior remarks a part of the reason for that resistance. What else am I to conclude?

 

Not true.  I have said repeatedly that I believe Elder Cook was being honest,  And only stated that I did not believe that Elder Jensen was rattled at the time he made his statement about apostacy.  Both statements can be true.

 

Again, show me where I have pitted Elder Jensen's words against Elder Cook's.  

Edited April 7, 2015 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

Based on the supposed goals of the gospel topics essays, I agree.  I think there has been some undesired outcomes from those essays.

With people being offended because the soil of faith in their souls wasn't deep enough for the gospel seed to take substantial root? That was happening before the advent of the essays.

And why do you say "supposed goals"? Do you think there have been bogus goals given? What are they, and why do you think they're bogus?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd