Papa's Question...

[Wants2know]

Wow. This is a fabulous thread! Thank you Papa and Daniel for sharing so much. Incredibly powerful a dialogue here.

[Daniel2]

Yes,motorized to send a PM, your folder I'd full. Or send me one and I will reply.

Sent you a PM, PaPa

[Daniel2]

Anyone heard from PaPa?  Sent him a PM two weeks ago, and he still hasn't read it.  Bit worried about him....

[Calm]

He hasn't been on the board for two weeks apparently.  Hope he is okay.  He has some health issues.

 

add-on:  I think I found him on lds.net where he was on today....so perhaps he just wanted some new conversations.  

Edited April 15, 2015 by calmoriah

[Stargazer]

He hasn't been on the board for two weeks apparently.  Hope he is okay.  He has some health issues.

 

add-on:  I think I found him on lds.net where he was on today....so perhaps he just wanted some new conversations.  

 

Well, I get tired of this place sometimes, too.

[Daniel2]

He hasn't been on the board for two weeks apparently.  Hope he is okay.  He has some health issues.

 

add-on:  I think I found him on lds.net where he was on today....so perhaps he just wanted some new conversations.  

 

Glad to hear it.  Understandable to take a break from here, on occasion.

[JLHPROF]

Well, I get tired of this place sometimes, too.

 

Yep, but yet I keep coming back and revisiting the same circular discussions.  I think we are all a little glutton for punishment here.

[Stargazer]

Yep, but yet I keep coming back and revisiting the same circular discussions.  I think we are all a little glutton for punishment here.

 

That much is certain!

[Jeanne]

In a separate thread, PaPa wrote:

 

 

 

Dear PaPa,

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, gentle, respectful post.  Just as you have become aware of some of my life circumstances from comments I’ve in numerous threads throughout the years, I of course am aware of some of your life circumstances, with regards to your daughter and her partner.

 

Your post is a great one, because I think it asks some great questions that are really at the heart of the kinds of discussions that I think are the most worthwhile to have, because they deal with things that are probably most precious to all of us… family.

 

First, in direct response to a couple of your questions:

 

Yes, both my husband and I served fulltime missions for the church.  We both married women in the temple, and both had children with our wives.  After living for several years with each of our wives, we both ultimately divorced.  It would be more than a decade before he and I met each other, so neither of us witnessed the others’ journeys out of our marriages, nor out of the Faith.

 

I was raised overseas in the American Military community for my entire life.  When my family moved in response to one of my Father’s assignments to the next, it meant moving to entirely new countries, and sometimes, new continents.  We would visit Utah, California, and Arizona during the summers to see our extended family ‘home’ in the U.S., but with them far from us throughout the majority of our lives, there was one constant family we had, no matter where we moved: our LDS branches composed of other military servicemen and women, along with any English speaking locals that also attended our branches.  In the absence of aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents, our gospel families became the only constant family my brothers and I knew. 

 

Each time we moved, the Branch and Relief Society presidents were there to help us move in, feed us with warm food, and welcome us with open arms.  My social life growing up revolved entirely around the branch activities of fellow-English speaking foreigners sojourning in alien lands.  As Americans who had access to American goods through the local PX’s and Commissaries on our military bases, we offered a little bit of home to American missionaries stationed overseas.  The Elders and Sister Missionaries were in our home at least weekly for dinner… almost always on Sundays after church.  There was no question in my mind that I would one day serve a mission; no doubt that when I turned 18, I would follow in my brothers’ footsteps by moving to Utah after graduation and attend BYU, the only American college I’d really even heard of.  I was and shall be ever grateful for the wonderful childhood I had… the church roadshows, scout camps, mutual events, pizza parties, choir performances, movie nights, and even early morning seminary.  Mormonism is and will ever be my heritage, my history, my culture.  Throughout my childhood and youth, it was also my spiritual center.

 

So getting back to your question, yes, I served a full time mission , as did my husband.  After returning, I served in a variety of church positions, from Gospel Doctrine and Gospel Essentials teacher, to Elder’s Quorum President, counselor, and secretary.  My husband also served in a variety of positions, including as a member of the bishopric and a stake high counselor during his time in the church. 

 

I shared my “struggle with SSA” with two different well-meaning (but severely misguided) bishops during my time at BYU—one before my mission, and one after my return.  Both gave me the same advice: SSA was Satan’s way of trying to dissuade me from the path; I needed to stay close to the Lord, read my scriptures, attend the temple (which I did, twice a week, after my mission), find a woman to be my eternal companion, and follow the Lords plan… to trust in Him and His wisdom.  Part of their counsel was that I never reveal to my wife of my struggles, because I had repented, and the Lord “remembered them no more.”

 

I found a woman to marry in the temple, and fathered three amazing children.  My husband also married in the temple, and had four children of his own.  After living for several years with each of our wives, we both ultimately divorced.  It would be more than a decade before he and I met each other, so neither of us witnessed the others’ journeys out of our marriages, nor out of the Faith.

 

The process of leaving the church behind was fairly quick for both of us.  My husband was excommunicated in his a church court.  I was disfellowshiped after mine, with the provision that I was being given a 12 month probationary period with the task of demonstrating consistent repentance through weekly meetings with my bishop to review my progress.  After 12 months, I was told, the church would hold a second court, and at that time the decision would be made whether to excommunicate me or reinstate me into full fellowship.  After my court, I meet weekly with my bishop for about six months.  I also attended both personal therapy and couples counselling with therapists through LDS Social Services, and an LDS ‘reparative’ therapist named David Mattheson (who has been discussed on this board before) for several sessions.  Each of these—my bishop, our marriage counselor, and David Mattheson—was to be a sounding board for me to work through the repentance process, coupled with personal prayer, meditation, and scripture study.

 

It was during that probationary period that I followed the counsel I had shared with so many of my investigators during those two years in Argentina: “Prove all things… hold fast to that which is good.”  After much study, prayer, and self-reflection, it was clear to me that I would not be returning to the Church.  It was no longer my spiritual home.  I no longer felt that I could live according to its precepts, and I found greater inner peace in the wilderness beyond.  This was not an easy or brief journey… it was a long, gradual, thoughtful, and oftentimes painful process of examining the sources of my thoughts, feelings, and impressions.  And obviously, the journey affected others, including (most obviously) my wife and children.

 

My marriage was itself plagued by a host of other problems related to my wife’s previously unrevealed mental health issues that pre-existed our engagement and were unrelated to my sexual orientation.  Based on my own experience, I believe that divorce is rarely a one-sided street; both spouses share some level of responsibility for a marriage’s failure.  I will not go into all of the issues, but I will say that because of my own circumstances, coupled with the increasingly erratic and escalating abuse by my mentally-troubled wife, and by the time I decided to end our marriage, even our bishop agreed that divorce was the only viable path forward.

 

Why do I reserve most of my comments to gay and lesbian issues that relate to the church?  Well, first of all, despite some peoples’ impressions to the contrary, I do comment on other topics.  Granted (and it’s a big ‘granting’), the VAST majority of what I post here is related to GL issues…   Secondly, one of the main reason I avoid commenting on other topics is because although I disagree with many LDS beliefs, I have no wish to demean, tarnish, or tear down others’ belief systems.  As Thumper’s Mom wisely suggested, if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.  There is no need for me to tear down others’ faith, especially when it is so meaningful and fulfilling for them—true or not.  Finally, the reason I continue to engage in dialogue on issues relating to the crossroads of Mormonism and Sexual Orientation is because LDS doctrine, policies, and/or culture are what prevent my very LDS children, siblings, and other family members from fully accepting my husband and I as individuals worthy of the same equal dignity and respect that I unconditionally extend to them.  The adage that apostates “can leave the church, but can’t leave it alone” ignores the reality that even when those of us who choose to leave the church freely do so, the church continues to have a very real and profound effect on our lives, families, communities, and (in the case of gay issues) even civil rights.  A willingness to engage in ongoing mutually-respectful dialogue with the members of our former Faith is not a sign of mal-intent to hurt or destroy the church or its membership—it is a demonstration of a desire to navigate a path to peaceful co-existence in a pluralistic society that strives for mutual respect while maintaining the broadest personal freedoms that are humanly possible for everyone.

 

I will continue to comment on other threads when I can attempt to remain positive or share an otherwise (mostly ) innocuous perspective, such as sharing my thoughts on my favorite LDS hymns in that thread, or relating my experiences with the missionaries in the Social Hall thread I started, etc.   Additionally, in my real live “off board,” my existence isn’t as “gayly-all-consuming” as that prominent facet of me here at M&D… I live a full, well-rounded life (other outside interests of mine include my husbands’ and my children, grandchildren, camping, hiking, swimming, clinical massage therapy, singing, teaching, competitive dog agility, film, theater, my aging parents, etc).  But I’m sure it will come as no surprise that the majority of my posts here will continue to relate to GL issues.

 

In this post, I’ve shared several things about myself… it's already way too long.  

 

I opened a new thread because I think your post suggests some great topics that are more universal about how devout Latter-day Saints who have friends and especially family with alternate views, especially those of us who are gay and lesbian, can improve our relationships.  I intend to explore other aspects of your post in subsequent postings, and invite others to do the same.

 

Peace, brother.

My love and respect to you.  What you have..what you have experienced..is profound from the heart and bears in itself so many universal truths..  Thank  you not just for your story.but that you are unashamed and honest.  So many people inside and outside any church can't say that.

[Daniel2]

My love and respect to you.  What you have..what you have experienced..is profound from the heart and bears in itself so many universal truths..  Thank  you not just for your story.but that you are unashamed and honest.  So many people inside and outside any church can't say that.

 

Thank you for the kind words, Jeanne.  I strive for honesty, but I certainly have my own share of regrets in life, and am under no delusions of grandeur about my own faults and foibles. 

 

When I share my story with others, I like to keep in mind the following quote from one of myfavorite authors: Sam Keen...

 

I write autobiographically because I am convinced that it is only by allowing you to see the gnarls of my spirit that I may encourage you to ‘cherish the grain of your own wood’... There is no one ‘Right Way.’ The dignity and meaning in my life involves the discovery and creation of my way, my truth, my destiny. To discover my particular essence; the sacred intention that was inscribed on my DNA; my “original face,” as Zen says, I must recollect the loom of myth on which my psyche was woven by my parents and the unquestioned early authorities who demanded obedience to societal norms. Only by exploring and sharing my autobiography can I witness to my discoveries of the sacred. My story is not ‘normative.’ I am under no illusions that I am a saint, a hero, or a model for anyone. I do not write in order to say, ‘Here is the map for you to follow.’ I only share some stories of the twists and turns in my journey in order to encourage you to take your own story seriously.

 

It’s for you to examine the sacred text of your daily experience, reconstructing the events and relationships that went into the creation of your being; recollecting memories and forming them into the narrative that makes your life ‘a once told story.’ By excavating the myths that formed and misinformed me, I hope to get nearer to my origins; my primal or essential self… The prodigal self, having divested itself of the illusions and shortsightedness that are imposed by family and tribe, can return to a homeland in which there is no alienation between self and other.

 

“Hymns to an Unknown God” (italics added)

[Guest]

He hasn't been on the board for two weeks apparently.  Hope he is okay.  He has some health issues.

 

add-on:  I think I found him on lds.net where he was on today....so perhaps he just wanted some new conversations.  

I had new back surgery. And going on three years with my status limited...I just realized I am not wanted here. Not angry, just realized it is rude to stay where you are not wanted. I need to heal...hard to do when reminded of the fact. I answered Daniel's PM. What is your screen name at LDS.NET so I will know who you are...anyway God bless you all. Pa Pa out.