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Papa's Question...


Daniel2

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PaPa

 

I am LDS and Straight and I am not sure how that is even a question: Love your daughter, accept her for what she is; one of Gods Children and one of your children.

 

I have a gay sister-in-law (wife's sister)and treat her and her partner just like I would anyone else. I don't judge them, I accept then for who they are. Does their lifestyle go against my beliefs? yes, but so does someone who sins in other ways, so I just love them for who they are.

 

Give your daughter a good Christ like example of loving kindness.

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I had another question...how do I have a better relationship with my daughter and maintain my beliefs?

 

As you probably know, Elder Christofferson faced a very similar thing with his excommunicated brother Tom (voluntary withdrawal). While short of specifics their relationship is an example that reconciliation is possible. http://lds.net/blog/buzz/elder-christofferson-uses-family-example-harmony-mormons-gays/#.VP9HaJNVnK8

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PaPa

 

I am LDS and Straight and I am not sure how that is even a question: Love your daughter, accept her for what she is; one of Gods Children and one of your children.

 

I have a gay sister-in-law (wife's sister)and treat her and her partner just like I would anyone else. I don't judge them, I accept then for who they are. Does their lifestyle go against my beliefs? yes, but so does someone who sins in other ways, so I just love them for who they are.

 

Give your daughter a good Christ like example of loving kindness.

I do love my daughter, no one on earth can make me laugh more than her. We have always been close....I asked her years ago if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs on traditional marriage; she replied "no". Her partner is not only welcomed in our home, but my daughter has gotten very angry as of late concerning my belief concerning gay marriage as well as the Church. Not sure how anyone who has ever read any comment concerning her would think I do not love her, Christlike or otherwise. This is also something I said in the thread Daniel linked. Up until recently we spoke 3 or 4 times weekly, now she seldom calls or comes to Sunday dinner. Her partner gets on to her for not calling or wanting to come to Sunday dinner. I call on her to pray, take part in every family activity...I would cut my heart out for her, and she knows it. I shortened the question for Daniel because he knew what I asked him total. Lately, I am getting chided and corrected by so many...either I am incoherent when I type or just...forget it. I'll wait for Daniel's reply...he knows how I feel about her.

Also for Daniel only...I know you do not agree with the Church's views on gay marriage and other related topics; but having been a Gospel Doctrine teacher and Gospel Essentials, what other things do you no longer agree with? You can send me a PM is you would rather. Feel like Hopefully, you don't misunderstand me. But for those who might wonder...the only way I know how to love all my children and their mother is with Christlike love. Hate or being mean does not come naturally to me...no matter who they are. It is painful that someone would even think so...maybe it is the poet in me; tender hearted ya know. :)

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As you probably know, Elder Christofferson faced a very similar thing with his excommunicated brother Tom (voluntary withdrawal). While short of specifics their relationship is an example that reconciliation is possible. http://lds.net/blog/buzz/elder-christofferson-uses-family-example-harmony-mormons-gays/#.VP9HaJNVnK8

No, I did not know. Even so I thought Daniel could speak from his own experiences and I am guessing I cannot get an.Apostles to respond to my questions. :)
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Hi Pa Pa,

 

I might be out of line for weighing in on this thread, and if so, I apologize in advance.  I know I'm jumping into the middle of a bigger conversation, but I couldn't help but wonder what you would do if same-sex marriage does become legal in Georgia and your daughter chooses to get married.  Even though you are against the concept of same-sex marriage in abstract, would you support her specific marriage?  Would you congratulate her in her marriage?  Attend the wedding?  Walk her down the aisle?  Offer a toast at the reception?  Celebrate the occasion?

 

If you would in fact celebrate and support her marriage, does she know it?  If you wouldn't support it (or if you would but she doesn't know it) that might be the problem. 

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Hey, PaPa,

I am thumb typing on my phone instead of on a keyboard, so my response will be briefer than I'd like--I will write a longer one when on my laptop later.

I have known and casually interacted with you for a long time on the board. I know your daughter and I share some disagreements with you about civil marriage recognition... however, for whatever it may be worth, I have never doubted your love for your daughter. I think it is evident in the words you use to describe her, the obvious affection you have, and the unfortunate pain the challenges in your relationship give you.

The fact that you welcome your daughter AND her partner into your home speaks volumes to your love and acceptance, regardless of your personal feelings about civil marriage. From what you have said, I believe you are doing far more than what many others are. I commend you... it took my parents a long time to show that same acceptance.

In all candor, it appears your daughter needs to do some internal work to meet you half way. It sounds like she is having a hard time being as tolerant of you as you are, of her.

From my experience, it seems the church and gay culture are at a crossroads... emerging from decades of a fierce, deeply personal, and bitter (albeit unintentionally so) rivalry. Both cultures bear internal scars. My perception is both sides are weary of thr fight, and as the church moves to make overtures of reconciliation, many question the motives, deride the self-serving aspects of such moves, and magnify the faults in such reconciliation attempts. Some Latter-day Saints will decry those gays that may smugly adopt a hairy "I told you so" attitude of self-entitlement or even vengeance. And some gays and lesbians will sneer at the church's efforts to be self-preservation and too little too late. The growing pains for us all will be tough. And forgiveness and letting go are lessons most often the longest to learn.

It sounds like your daughter is hung up on your lack of support for civil marriage equality. I can understand and even empathize with her disappointment... it's a hard thing to know your family doesn't agree with what feels like civil equality... however, it sure seems like she's putting all her eggs in that one basket, and overlooking the huge overtures of acceptance you offer in welcoming she and her partner in your home.

To this day, my family have maintained that while they agree with civil protections for gay couples, they believe that the title of "married" should have been reserved for straught couples. I learned to overlook and accept them just as they are, with no expectation for them to change that view--but a verbally expressed hope that my husband would at least be welcome at family gatherings.

Of my four brothers, only one attended my wedding. My mother also attended, as well as an aunt, and one of my sisters-in-law (married to a different brother than the one who attended). My father's late-staged Parkinson's prevented him from attending, but my husband and I have spent many an evening seranading him bedside at his nursing homes (we sang from the hymnal... my husband has an amazing voice... he sang in Michael McClean original 'Forgotten Carols' recording, and still accepts invites in his home town to sing at many LDS friends and family's homecomin and funerals). Two other brothers have met my husband, have had their families (including kids) have dinner and game night... they accept mu husband as a member of our family, they just felt they couldn't attend the actual wedding. And one brother... well... he feels that he I'd doing the right thing by maintaining his distance, and avoiding interaction with his children, from and with my husband. His is the hardest for me to understand... but I just try to accept his reality and hope that someday his views will soften.

When my husband and I interact with both of our LDS families, we choose to keep PDA at a minimum as a sign of respect. Though neither of us prays ourselves, we join in kneeling in family prayer or bowing out heads at meals.

TBC...

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Hi Pa Pa,

 

I might be out of line for weighing in on this thread, and if so, I apologize in advance.  I know I'm jumping into the middle of a bigger conversation, but I couldn't help but wonder what you would do if same-sex marriage does become legal in Georgia and your daughter chooses to get married.  Even though you are against the concept of same-sex marriage in abstract, would you support her specific marriage?  Would you congratulate her in her marriage?  Attend the wedding?  Walk her down the aisle?  Offer a toast at the reception?  Celebrate the occasion?

 

If you would in fact celebrate and support her marriage, does she know it?  If you wouldn't support it (or if you would but she doesn't know it) that might be the problem.

She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.
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She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

 

As you know, I share a lot of the same beliefs and values that Daniel and others that were brought up in the church and are gay.  Most of his OP could have been mine as well.  Like Daniel and your daughter, I don't expect members of the church to have the same opinions or understanding of gay marriage that I do.  And, like Daniel, I too know of your love for your daughter and your sincere desire to be her father.  You are a great dad.  She is very lucky.

 

But I would like to address something that I think you may be wrestling with.  Should you attend her wedding?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs if you did?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs to be ok with gays having the right to a civil marriage?

 

I was talking with my sister the other day.  Like your family, my family also has a hard time dealing with the fact that I am gay.  The range of emotions and beliefs are all over the board from my sister who has done nothing but shown me kindness from the day I came out to some who I have not seen since that day.  I have a few sister in laws who are at the extreme end of the spectrum to the point that they throw fits if anyone suggests that I be invited to any family activity.  A family event recently came up and they as in the past made it clear that if I was going, they would not.  And since it was them that were "doing what God wanted them to do", then how could any reasonable person choose me, their brother over them.  It has only been in the last year, 15 years later since I came out that I have started to be invited back to any family gatherings.

 

My sister asked this sister in law if she ever went visiting teaching to a family that was not living the gospel?  Did she ever visit a neighbor who was not living the gospel?  Would she invite them to an activity?  Would she invite them even to a family picnic or hike or other outing.  If so, how could she not have a member of her own family attend a family event.

 

Now let's talk about attending your daughter's wedding.  Have you ever gone to a Jewish or Catholic wedding?  Do you abandon your beliefs by attending those weddings?  Do you or others think you are embracing their beliefs by attending?  Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress?  I don't know if this is an issue for you.  But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there.  She is your daughter.  She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending.  What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally.  You will be doing what the Savior would have done.   The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally.  That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you.  And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota.  Just my thoughts.

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Hi CB! :)

As you know, I share a lot of the same beliefs and values that Daniel and others that were brought up in the church and are gay.  Most of his OP could have been mine as well.  Like Daniel and your daughter, I don't expect members of the church to have the same opinions or understanding of gay marriage that I do.  And, like Daniel, I too know of your love for your daughter and your sincere desire to be her father.  You are a great dad.  She is very lucky.

 

But I would like to address something that I think you may be wrestling with.  Should you attend her wedding?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs if you did?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs to be ok with gays having the right to a civil marriage?

 

I was talking with my sister the other day.  Like your family, my family also has a hard time dealing with the fact that I am gay.  The range of emotions and beliefs are all over the board from my sister who has done nothing but shown me kindness from the day I came out to some who I have not seen since that day.  I have a few sister in laws who are at the extreme end of the spectrum to the point that they throw fits if anyone suggests that I be invited to any family activity.  A family event recently came up and they as in the past made it clear that if I was going, they would not.  And since it was them that were "doing what God wanted them to do", then how could any reasonable person choose me, their brother over them.  It has only been in the last year, 15 years later since I came out that I have started to be invited back to any family gatherings.

 

My sister asked this sister in law if she ever went visiting teaching to a family that was not living the gospel?  Did she ever visit a neighbor who was not living the gospel?  Would she invite them to an activity?  Would she invite them even to a family picnic or hike or other outing.  If so, how could she not have a member of her own family attend a family event.

 

Now let's talk about attending your daughter's wedding.  Have you ever gone to a Jewish or Catholic wedding?  Do you abandon your beliefs by attending those weddings?  Do you or others think you are embracing their beliefs by attending?  Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress?  I don't know if this is an issue for you.  But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there.  She is your daughter.  She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending.  What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally.  You will be doing what the Savior would have done.   The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally.  That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you.  And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota.  Just my thoughts.

Profound!

An extremely valuable contribution!

A sincere pleasure to have read it! :)

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She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

How about this: If you think it's not clear to your daughter that you don't approve of same sex weddings, tell her again, and then tell her that you will go to her same sex wedding because you want to witness and be a part of the big moments in her life. And then if you think it's still not clear to her how you feel about same sex weddings, tell her again.

If I had a daughter that wanted to marry a woman, and I couldn't talk her out of it, I'd probably go to her same sex wedding while telling myself "she knows I don't approve and she still wants me to be there anyway even while she knows I do not approve". I'd feel like I was witnessing something I didn't want to see, but I'd be willing to see it as long as she knew I did not approve but was willing to see it anyway.

Basically I'd be torturing myself just to help her to know that I love her.

Edited by Ahab
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She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

 

Hmmm.  It sounds like you are saying that you are not going to her wedding because you think her marriage is in violation of what you think God wants.  If that is what's going on, it isn't surprising that she is so hurt. 

 

It is interesting that you describe the issue as being about whether you should abandon your beliefs rather than about whether you should attend your daughter's wedding.  To her, it might sound like, "my belief that same-sex marriage is wrong is more powerful than my love for you."  

 

Going back to your original question, if you want to show your daughter and her partner how much you love them, you should attend their wedding.  Simply tell them, "look, I'm not here to abandon my beliefs.  I'm here to tell you both how much I love you, and to sincerely wish you a long and happy life together."  Is saying that internally consistent?  I don't know--if it is an issue to you, put it on the shelf.  You should go to the wedding and support her. God would forgive you.

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Scratch what I said before. I'm pretty sure I couldn't go see her do something I thought she shouldn't do without hoping she would back out of it and just not do it. I wouldn't go see it.

I'd somehow show support for her but while making it clear I would not support her doing something I thought she shouldn't do.

I feel sad for you Pa Pa. Tough situation to be in.

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Hmmm. It sounds like you are saying that you are not going to her wedding because you think her marriage is in violation of what you think God wants. If that is what's going on, it isn't surprising that she is so hurt.

It is interesting that you describe the issue as being about whether you should abandon your beliefs rather than about whether you should attend your daughter's wedding. To her, it might sound like, "my belief that same-sex marriage is wrong is more powerful than my love for you."

Going back to your original question, if you want to show your daughter and her partner how much you love them, you should attend their wedding. Simply tell them, "look, I'm not here to abandon my beliefs. I'm here to tell you both how much I love you, and to sincerely wish you a long and happy life together." Is saying that internally consistent? I don't know--if it is an issue to you, put it on the shelf. You should go to the wedding and support her. God would forgive you.

For what it's worth, when my devout LDS sister-in-law surprised me by announcing that she planned to attend my wedding just days before our ceremony, I started to say something like, "Thank you so much for coming... I know this subject is a difficu--" Cuttung me off, she gave me a big hug and whispered in my ear, "I'm here for you."

Knowing her as I do, I received and undersrood her message loud and clear: she firmly has and retains a testimony of the church and it's views on marriage, and she even more sronglu understands Christ's message to love one another.

It didn't and doesn't matter to me that she maintains her believe against gay marriage--what mattered most to both of us was that we are family, and we love one another.

And that makes all the differences manageable.

The same message is true of my mother, and my brother, and my aunt who attended.

PaPa, you don't have to abandon your beliefs in attending her wedding to show your daughter you love her, just as she doesn't have to abandon her beliefs when she bows her head in reverence at your table.

Edited by Daniel2
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As you know, I share a lot of the same beliefs and values that Daniel and others that were brought up in the church and are gay. Most of his OP could have been mine as well. Like Daniel and your daughter, I don't expect members of the church to have the same opinions or understanding of gay marriage that I do. And, like Daniel, I too know of your love for your daughter and your sincere desire to be her father. You are a great dad. She is very lucky.

But I would like to address something that I think you may be wrestling with. Should you attend her wedding? Would you be abandoning your beliefs if you did? Would you be abandoning your beliefs to be ok with gays having the right to a civil marriage?

I was talking with my sister the other day. Like your family, my family also has a hard time dealing with the fact that I am gay. The range of emotions and beliefs are all over the board from my sister who has done nothing but shown me kindness from the day I came out to some who I have not seen since that day. I have a few sister in laws who are at the extreme end of the spectrum to the point that they throw fits if anyone suggests that I be invited to any family activity. A family event recently came up and they as in the past made it clear that if I was going, they would not. And since it was them that were "doing what God wanted them to do", then how could any reasonable person choose me, their brother over them. It has only been in the last year, 15 years later since I came out that I have started to be invited back to any family gatherings.

My sister asked this sister in law if she ever went visiting teaching to a family that was not living the gospel? Did she ever visit a neighbor who was not living the gospel? Would she invite them to an activity? Would she invite them even to a family picnic or hike or other outing. If so, how could she not have a member of her own family attend a family event.

Now let's talk about attending your daughter's wedding. Have you ever gone to a Jewish or Catholic wedding? Do you abandon your beliefs by attending those weddings? Do you or others think you are embracing their beliefs by attending? Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress? I don't know if this is an issue for you. But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there. She is your daughter. She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending. What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally. You will be doing what the Savior would have done. The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally. That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you. And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota. Just my thoughts.

So true.
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All of my children are straight, but I can relate to the problem by putting myself into it, as if one of them were gay.

 

Remarkably enough, I had never even contemplated what I would do if one of them did come out as gay and decided to marry their gay partner.  This thread has caused me to put myself into the situation, and so I believe I can finally say what I would do.

 

I have said on many an occasion, including here on this board, that I don't consider gay marriage to actually be marriage.  "Marriage is between a man and a woman," I have said, and I still believe this. 

 

But attending the gay wedding of my child does not strike me as sinful.  Heck, I've got sons and daughters living in sin with their heterosexual partners, which is no less sinful than living in a gay relationship, and yet I still expect them to come to Thanksgiving dinner and to bring their partners.  So why not their gay partner?  Or "spouse"?  They know where I stand; there's no confusion.

 

If you want my advice, Pa Pa, I'd say you should feel free to attend your daughter's wedding.  Not attending won't change anything, so there's no leverage in staying away.  Go and support her -- I doubt that you would ever regret it.

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Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress? I don't know if this is an issue for you. But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there. She is your daughter. She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending. What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally. You will be doing what the Savior would have done. The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally. That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you. And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota. Just my thoughts.

It would take a lot of praying to find out what the Lord would have me do.

The Lord coming to the aid is not a comparable situation. Someone coming to the aid of a gay person about to be beat up is comparable or attending the celebration of the union of an adulterous woman with her lover is comparable with a same sex wedding. I can completely see the Savior coming to the aid of the gay man being cornered by bullies. I don't see him celebrating with the adulterous couple when he told the woman to sin no more. That's why this can be such a hard choice.

But I would want to support my child. I would want him to know of my love for him no matter what.

So I think it is good to share feelings on the matter, but we can't tell papa what he should do. That is between him and the Lord and his advice will likely differ somewhere with all the endless family relationships.

Papa - praying for clear answers and peace for you.

Edited by Rain
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Hmmm.  It sounds like you are saying that you are not going to her wedding because you think her marriage is in violation of what you think God wants.  If that is what's going on, it isn't surprising that she is so hurt. 

 

It is interesting that you describe the issue as being about whether you should abandon your beliefs rather than about whether you should attend your daughter's wedding.  To her, it might sound like, "my belief that same-sex marriage is wrong is more powerful than my love for you."  

 

Going back to your original question, if you want to show your daughter and her partner how much you love them, you should attend their wedding.  Simply tell them, "look, I'm not here to abandon my beliefs.  I'm here to tell you both how much I love you, and to sincerely wish you a long and happy life together."  Is saying that internally consistent?  I don't know--if it is an issue to you, put it on the shelf.  You should go to the wedding and support her. God would forgive you.

I not going because she is going to New York and I cannot afford to go...something she has tried to keep me from knowing.
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I not going because she is going to New York and I cannot afford to go...something she has tried to keep me from knowing.

I don't understand... Why is she trying to keep you from knowing where her wedding is? Does she want you to attend...?

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I don't understand... Why is she trying to keep you from knowing where her wedding is? Does she want you to attend...?

No, she does not want any of us to attend. No...one.
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Has she explained why she doesn't want you or others in the family to attend?

Yes,motorized to send a PM, your folder I'd full. Or send me one and I will reply.
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