Papa's Question...

[Daniel2]

In a separate thread, PaPa wrote:

 

 

Daniel, we all love you, all hope for your happiness. I have a question that you might be able to help me with. As you know I have a gay child, there are so many topics here that could use your opinions, but all that we here from you about are gay issues.

 

I know you love the Church as does my daughter, you served a mission, she helped finance her little brother's mission. But she is obsessed with the issue of gay marriage and tells me she does not want me to abandon my beliefs, but is angry that I do not support Georgia allowing gay marriage. Every Sunday I ask her and her partner to come to dinner....even at times calling her partner to make sure they come.

 

So often those of faith who believe in marriage between man and woman are called bigots, usually it is the gay community who is pointed the finger.

 

So how do I show my daughter how much I love her and her partner and hold to my faith and beliefs? It is clear the gay community is winning the battle over gay marriage, but still very angry at those who believe it is not right.

 

You served a mission and your husband did (I believe you said)...what about thread concerning the BoM, or doctrines? I would love to hear (read) your comments.

 

Do you still believe in the gospel or God? I just don't know.

 

How does a believing Mormon or (if you will) Non-Mormon Christian have a loving relationship with their gay child?

 

 

 

Dear PaPa,

 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, gentle, respectful post.  Just as you have become aware of some of my life circumstances from comments I’ve in numerous threads throughout the years, I of course am aware of some of your life circumstances, with regards to your daughter and her partner.

 

Your post is a great one, because I think it asks some great questions that are really at the heart of the kinds of discussions that I think are the most worthwhile to have, because they deal with things that are probably most precious to all of us… family.

 

First, in direct response to a couple of your questions:

 

Yes, both my husband and I served fulltime missions for the church.  We both married women in the temple, and both had children with our wives.  After living for several years with each of our wives, we both ultimately divorced.  It would be more than a decade before he and I met each other, so neither of us witnessed the others’ journeys out of our marriages, nor out of the Faith.

 

I was raised overseas in the American Military community for my entire life.  When my family moved in response to one of my Father’s assignments to the next, it meant moving to entirely new countries, and sometimes, new continents.  We would visit Utah, California, and Arizona during the summers to see our extended family ‘home’ in the U.S., but with them far from us throughout the majority of our lives, there was one constant family we had, no matter where we moved: our LDS branches composed of other military servicemen and women, along with any English speaking locals that also attended our branches.  In the absence of aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents, our gospel families became the only constant family my brothers and I knew. 

 

Each time we moved, the Branch and Relief Society presidents were there to help us move in, feed us with warm food, and welcome us with open arms.  My social life growing up revolved entirely around the branch activities of fellow-English speaking foreigners sojourning in alien lands.  As Americans who had access to American goods through the local PX’s and Commissaries on our military bases, we offered a little bit of home to American missionaries stationed overseas.  The Elders and Sister Missionaries were in our home at least weekly for dinner… almost always on Sundays after church.  There was no question in my mind that I would one day serve a mission; no doubt that when I turned 18, I would follow in my brothers’ footsteps by moving to Utah after graduation and attend BYU, the only American college I’d really even heard of.  I was and shall be ever grateful for the wonderful childhood I had… the church roadshows, scout camps, mutual events, pizza parties, choir performances, movie nights, and even early morning seminary.  Mormonism is and will ever be my heritage, my history, my culture.  Throughout my childhood and youth, it was also my spiritual center.

 

So getting back to your question, yes, I served a full time mission , as did my husband.  After returning, I served in a variety of church positions, from Gospel Doctrine and Gospel Essentials teacher, to Elder’s Quorum President, counselor, and secretary.  My husband also served in a variety of positions, including as a member of the bishopric and a stake high counselor during his time in the church. 

 

I shared my “struggle with SSA” with two different well-meaning (but severely misguided) bishops during my time at BYU—one before my mission, and one after my return.  Both gave me the same advice: SSA was Satan’s way of trying to dissuade me from the path; I needed to stay close to the Lord, read my scriptures, attend the temple (which I did, twice a week, after my mission), find a woman to be my eternal companion, and follow the Lords plan… to trust in Him and His wisdom.  Part of their counsel was that I never reveal to my wife of my struggles, because I had repented, and the Lord “remembered them no more.”

 

I found a woman to marry in the temple, and fathered three amazing children.  My husband also married in the temple, and had four children of his own.  After living for several years with each of our wives, we both ultimately divorced.  It would be more than a decade before he and I met each other, so neither of us witnessed the others’ journeys out of our marriages, nor out of the Faith.

 

The process of leaving the church behind was fairly quick for both of us.  My husband was excommunicated in his a church court.  I was disfellowshiped after mine, with the provision that I was being given a 12 month probationary period with the task of demonstrating consistent repentance through weekly meetings with my bishop to review my progress.  After 12 months, I was told, the church would hold a second court, and at that time the decision would be made whether to excommunicate me or reinstate me into full fellowship.  After my court, I meet weekly with my bishop for about six months.  I also attended both personal therapy and couples counselling with therapists through LDS Social Services, and an LDS ‘reparative’ therapist named David Mattheson (who has been discussed on this board before) for several sessions.  Each of these—my bishop, our marriage counselor, and David Mattheson—was to be a sounding board for me to work through the repentance process, coupled with personal prayer, meditation, and scripture study.

 

It was during that probationary period that I followed the counsel I had shared with so many of my investigators during those two years in Argentina: “Prove all things… hold fast to that which is good.”  After much study, prayer, and self-reflection, it was clear to me that I would not be returning to the Church.  It was no longer my spiritual home.  I no longer felt that I could live according to its precepts, and I found greater inner peace in the wilderness beyond.  This was not an easy or brief journey… it was a long, gradual, thoughtful, and oftentimes painful process of examining the sources of my thoughts, feelings, and impressions.  And obviously, the journey affected others, including (most obviously) my wife and children.

 

My marriage was itself plagued by a host of other problems related to my wife’s previously unrevealed mental health issues that pre-existed our engagement and were unrelated to my sexual orientation.  Based on my own experience, I believe that divorce is rarely a one-sided street; both spouses share some level of responsibility for a marriage’s failure.  I will not go into all of the issues, but I will say that because of my own circumstances, coupled with the increasingly erratic and escalating abuse by my mentally-troubled wife, and by the time I decided to end our marriage, even our bishop agreed that divorce was the only viable path forward.

 

Why do I reserve most of my comments to gay and lesbian issues that relate to the church?  Well, first of all, despite some peoples’ impressions to the contrary, I do comment on other topics.  Granted (and it’s a big ‘granting’), the VAST majority of what I post here is related to GL issues…   Secondly, one of the main reason I avoid commenting on other topics is because although I disagree with many LDS beliefs, I have no wish to demean, tarnish, or tear down others’ belief systems.  As Thumper’s Mom wisely suggested, if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.  There is no need for me to tear down others’ faith, especially when it is so meaningful and fulfilling for them—true or not.  Finally, the reason I continue to engage in dialogue on issues relating to the crossroads of Mormonism and Sexual Orientation is because LDS doctrine, policies, and/or culture are what prevent my very LDS children, siblings, and other family members from fully accepting my husband and I as individuals worthy of the same equal dignity and respect that I unconditionally extend to them.  The adage that apostates “can leave the church, but can’t leave it alone” ignores the reality that even when those of us who choose to leave the church freely do so, the church continues to have a very real and profound effect on our lives, families, communities, and (in the case of gay issues) even civil rights.  A willingness to engage in ongoing mutually-respectful dialogue with the members of our former Faith is not a sign of mal-intent to hurt or destroy the church or its membership—it is a demonstration of a desire to navigate a path to peaceful co-existence in a pluralistic society that strives for mutual respect while maintaining the broadest personal freedoms that are humanly possible for everyone.

 

I will continue to comment on other threads when I can attempt to remain positive or share an otherwise (mostly ) innocuous perspective, such as sharing my thoughts on my favorite LDS hymns in that thread, or relating my experiences with the missionaries in the Social Hall thread I started, etc.   Additionally, in my real live “off board,” my existence isn’t as “gayly-all-consuming” as that prominent facet of me here at M&D… I live a full, well-rounded life (other outside interests of mine include my husbands’ and my children, grandchildren, camping, hiking, swimming, clinical massage therapy, singing, teaching, competitive dog agility, film, theater, my aging parents, etc).  But I’m sure it will come as no surprise that the majority of my posts here will continue to relate to GL issues.

 

In this post, I’ve shared several things about myself… it's already way too long.  

 

I opened a new thread because I think your post suggests some great topics that are more universal about how devout Latter-day Saints who have friends and especially family with alternate views, especially those of us who are gay and lesbian, can improve our relationships.  I intend to explore other aspects of your post in subsequent postings, and invite others to do the same.

 

Peace, brother.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Daniel2

[Guest]

I had another question...how do I have a better relationship with my daughter and maintain my beliefs?

[CV75]

I had another question...how do I have a better relationship with my daughter and maintain my beliefs?

I think this is the key to what all humankind has in common for building relationships with each other and of course with God and with His creations:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/04/the-light-of-christ?lang=eng

[Daniel2]

I had another question...how do I have a better relationship with my daughter and maintain my beliefs?

I'll get there...

[mnn727]

PaPa

 

I am LDS and Straight and I am not sure how that is even a question: Love your daughter, accept her for what she is; one of Gods Children and one of your children.

 

I have a gay sister-in-law (wife's sister)and treat her and her partner just like I would anyone else. I don't judge them, I accept then for who they are. Does their lifestyle go against my beliefs? yes, but so does someone who sins in other ways, so I just love them for who they are.

 

Give your daughter a good Christ like example of loving kindness.

[Nofear]

I had another question...how do I have a better relationship with my daughter and maintain my beliefs?

 

As you probably know, Elder Christofferson faced a very similar thing with his excommunicated brother Tom (voluntary withdrawal). While short of specifics their relationship is an example that reconciliation is possible. http://lds.net/blog/buzz/elder-christofferson-uses-family-example-harmony-mormons-gays/#.VP9HaJNVnK8

[Guest]

PaPa

 

I am LDS and Straight and I am not sure how that is even a question: Love your daughter, accept her for what she is; one of Gods Children and one of your children.

 

I have a gay sister-in-law (wife's sister)and treat her and her partner just like I would anyone else. I don't judge them, I accept then for who they are. Does their lifestyle go against my beliefs? yes, but so does someone who sins in other ways, so I just love them for who they are.

 

Give your daughter a good Christ like example of loving kindness.

I do love my daughter, no one on earth can make me laugh more than her. We have always been close....I asked her years ago if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs on traditional marriage; she replied "no". Her partner is not only welcomed in our home, but my daughter has gotten very angry as of late concerning my belief concerning gay marriage as well as the Church. Not sure how anyone who has ever read any comment concerning her would think I do not love her, Christlike or otherwise. This is also something I said in the thread Daniel linked. Up until recently we spoke 3 or 4 times weekly, now she seldom calls or comes to Sunday dinner. Her partner gets on to her for not calling or wanting to come to Sunday dinner. I call on her to pray, take part in every family activity...I would cut my heart out for her, and she knows it. I shortened the question for Daniel because he knew what I asked him total. Lately, I am getting chided and corrected by so many...either I am incoherent when I type or just...forget it. I'll wait for Daniel's reply...he knows how I feel about her.

Also for Daniel only...I know you do not agree with the Church's views on gay marriage and other related topics; but having been a Gospel Doctrine teacher and Gospel Essentials, what other things do you no longer agree with? You can send me a PM is you would rather. Feel like Hopefully, you don't misunderstand me. But for those who might wonder...the only way I know how to love all my children and their mother is with Christlike love. Hate or being mean does not come naturally to me...no matter who they are. It is painful that someone would even think so...maybe it is the poet in me; tender hearted ya know.

[Guest]

As you probably know, Elder Christofferson faced a very similar thing with his excommunicated brother Tom (voluntary withdrawal). While short of specifics their relationship is an example that reconciliation is possible. http://lds.net/blog/buzz/elder-christofferson-uses-family-example-harmony-mormons-gays/#.VP9HaJNVnK8

No, I did not know. Even so I thought Daniel could speak from his own experiences and I am guessing I cannot get an.Apostles to respond to my questions.

[Analytics]

Hi Pa Pa,

 

I might be out of line for weighing in on this thread, and if so, I apologize in advance.  I know I'm jumping into the middle of a bigger conversation, but I couldn't help but wonder what you would do if same-sex marriage does become legal in Georgia and your daughter chooses to get married.  Even though you are against the concept of same-sex marriage in abstract, would you support her specific marriage?  Would you congratulate her in her marriage?  Attend the wedding?  Walk her down the aisle?  Offer a toast at the reception?  Celebrate the occasion?

 

If you would in fact celebrate and support her marriage, does she know it?  If you wouldn't support it (or if you would but she doesn't know it) that might be the problem. 

[Daniel2]

Hey, PaPa,

I am thumb typing on my phone instead of on a keyboard, so my response will be briefer than I'd like--I will write a longer one when on my laptop later.

I have known and casually interacted with you for a long time on the board. I know your daughter and I share some disagreements with you about civil marriage recognition... however, for whatever it may be worth, I have never doubted your love for your daughter. I think it is evident in the words you use to describe her, the obvious affection you have, and the unfortunate pain the challenges in your relationship give you.

The fact that you welcome your daughter AND her partner into your home speaks volumes to your love and acceptance, regardless of your personal feelings about civil marriage. From what you have said, I believe you are doing far more than what many others are. I commend you... it took my parents a long time to show that same acceptance.

In all candor, it appears your daughter needs to do some internal work to meet you half way. It sounds like she is having a hard time being as tolerant of you as you are, of her.

From my experience, it seems the church and gay culture are at a crossroads... emerging from decades of a fierce, deeply personal, and bitter (albeit unintentionally so) rivalry. Both cultures bear internal scars. My perception is both sides are weary of thr fight, and as the church moves to make overtures of reconciliation, many question the motives, deride the self-serving aspects of such moves, and magnify the faults in such reconciliation attempts. Some Latter-day Saints will decry those gays that may smugly adopt a hairy "I told you so" attitude of self-entitlement or even vengeance. And some gays and lesbians will sneer at the church's efforts to be self-preservation and too little too late. The growing pains for us all will be tough. And forgiveness and letting go are lessons most often the longest to learn.

It sounds like your daughter is hung up on your lack of support for civil marriage equality. I can understand and even empathize with her disappointment... it's a hard thing to know your family doesn't agree with what feels like civil equality... however, it sure seems like she's putting all her eggs in that one basket, and overlooking the huge overtures of acceptance you offer in welcoming she and her partner in your home.

To this day, my family have maintained that while they agree with civil protections for gay couples, they believe that the title of "married" should have been reserved for straught couples. I learned to overlook and accept them just as they are, with no expectation for them to change that view--but a verbally expressed hope that my husband would at least be welcome at family gatherings.

Of my four brothers, only one attended my wedding. My mother also attended, as well as an aunt, and one of my sisters-in-law (married to a different brother than the one who attended). My father's late-staged Parkinson's prevented him from attending, but my husband and I have spent many an evening seranading him bedside at his nursing homes (we sang from the hymnal... my husband has an amazing voice... he sang in Michael McClean original 'Forgotten Carols' recording, and still accepts invites in his home town to sing at many LDS friends and family's homecomin and funerals). Two other brothers have met my husband, have had their families (including kids) have dinner and game night... they accept mu husband as a member of our family, they just felt they couldn't attend the actual wedding. And one brother... well... he feels that he I'd doing the right thing by maintaining his distance, and avoiding interaction with his children, from and with my husband. His is the hardest for me to understand... but I just try to accept his reality and hope that someday his views will soften.

When my husband and I interact with both of our LDS families, we choose to keep PDA at a minimum as a sign of respect. Though neither of us prays ourselves, we join in kneeling in family prayer or bowing out heads at meals.

TBC...

[Guest]

Hi Pa Pa,

 

I might be out of line for weighing in on this thread, and if so, I apologize in advance.  I know I'm jumping into the middle of a bigger conversation, but I couldn't help but wonder what you would do if same-sex marriage does become legal in Georgia and your daughter chooses to get married.  Even though you are against the concept of same-sex marriage in abstract, would you support her specific marriage?  Would you congratulate her in her marriage?  Attend the wedding?  Walk her down the aisle?  Offer a toast at the reception?  Celebrate the occasion?

 

If you would in fact celebrate and support her marriage, does she know it?  If you wouldn't support it (or if you would but she doesn't know it) that might be the problem.

She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

[california boy]

She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

 

As you know, I share a lot of the same beliefs and values that Daniel and others that were brought up in the church and are gay.  Most of his OP could have been mine as well.  Like Daniel and your daughter, I don't expect members of the church to have the same opinions or understanding of gay marriage that I do.  And, like Daniel, I too know of your love for your daughter and your sincere desire to be her father.  You are a great dad.  She is very lucky.

 

But I would like to address something that I think you may be wrestling with.  Should you attend her wedding?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs if you did?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs to be ok with gays having the right to a civil marriage?

 

I was talking with my sister the other day.  Like your family, my family also has a hard time dealing with the fact that I am gay.  The range of emotions and beliefs are all over the board from my sister who has done nothing but shown me kindness from the day I came out to some who I have not seen since that day.  I have a few sister in laws who are at the extreme end of the spectrum to the point that they throw fits if anyone suggests that I be invited to any family activity.  A family event recently came up and they as in the past made it clear that if I was going, they would not.  And since it was them that were "doing what God wanted them to do", then how could any reasonable person choose me, their brother over them.  It has only been in the last year, 15 years later since I came out that I have started to be invited back to any family gatherings.

 

My sister asked this sister in law if she ever went visiting teaching to a family that was not living the gospel?  Did she ever visit a neighbor who was not living the gospel?  Would she invite them to an activity?  Would she invite them even to a family picnic or hike or other outing.  If so, how could she not have a member of her own family attend a family event.

 

Now let's talk about attending your daughter's wedding.  Have you ever gone to a Jewish or Catholic wedding?  Do you abandon your beliefs by attending those weddings?  Do you or others think you are embracing their beliefs by attending?  Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress?  I don't know if this is an issue for you.  But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there.  She is your daughter.  She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending.  What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally.  You will be doing what the Savior would have done.   The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally.  That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you.  And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota.  Just my thoughts.

[name]

Hi CB!

As you know, I share a lot of the same beliefs and values that Daniel and others that were brought up in the church and are gay.  Most of his OP could have been mine as well.  Like Daniel and your daughter, I don't expect members of the church to have the same opinions or understanding of gay marriage that I do.  And, like Daniel, I too know of your love for your daughter and your sincere desire to be her father.  You are a great dad.  She is very lucky.

 

But I would like to address something that I think you may be wrestling with.  Should you attend her wedding?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs if you did?  Would you be abandoning your beliefs to be ok with gays having the right to a civil marriage?

 

I was talking with my sister the other day.  Like your family, my family also has a hard time dealing with the fact that I am gay.  The range of emotions and beliefs are all over the board from my sister who has done nothing but shown me kindness from the day I came out to some who I have not seen since that day.  I have a few sister in laws who are at the extreme end of the spectrum to the point that they throw fits if anyone suggests that I be invited to any family activity.  A family event recently came up and they as in the past made it clear that if I was going, they would not.  And since it was them that were "doing what God wanted them to do", then how could any reasonable person choose me, their brother over them.  It has only been in the last year, 15 years later since I came out that I have started to be invited back to any family gatherings.

 

My sister asked this sister in law if she ever went visiting teaching to a family that was not living the gospel?  Did she ever visit a neighbor who was not living the gospel?  Would she invite them to an activity?  Would she invite them even to a family picnic or hike or other outing.  If so, how could she not have a member of her own family attend a family event.

 

Now let's talk about attending your daughter's wedding.  Have you ever gone to a Jewish or Catholic wedding?  Do you abandon your beliefs by attending those weddings?  Do you or others think you are embracing their beliefs by attending?  Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress?  I don't know if this is an issue for you.  But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there.  She is your daughter.  She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending.  What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally.  You will be doing what the Savior would have done.   The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally.  That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you.  And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota.  Just my thoughts.

Profound!

An extremely valuable contribution!

A sincere pleasure to have read it!

[Ahab]

She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

How about this: If you think it's not clear to your daughter that you don't approve of same sex weddings, tell her again, and then tell her that you will go to her same sex wedding because you want to witness and be a part of the big moments in her life. And then if you think it's still not clear to her how you feel about same sex weddings, tell her again.

If I had a daughter that wanted to marry a woman, and I couldn't talk her out of it, I'd probably go to her same sex wedding while telling myself "she knows I don't approve and she still wants me to be there anyway even while she knows I do not approve". I'd feel like I was witnessing something I didn't want to see, but I'd be willing to see it as long as she knew I did not approve but was willing to see it anyway.

Basically I'd be torturing myself just to help her to know that I love her.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ahab

[Analytics]

She is going to New York to be married on the 25th of this month. I do not believe same sex marriage is what God wants and believe as the Church does that it should not be allowed. When I asked her if she wanted me to abandon my beliefs she replied "no". The sad part for so many is those who believe as I do are called bigoted, but the bigotry comes from those who don't think freedom of conscience should be tolerated. It is only recently that my daughter has become very angry with us and herself. I have known my daughter is gay for 12 years now and have always been kind and loving toward her and her partner. Being tolerant of others opinions and beliefs should be a river that runs both ways.

 

Hmmm.  It sounds like you are saying that you are not going to her wedding because you think her marriage is in violation of what you think God wants.  If that is what's going on, it isn't surprising that she is so hurt. 

 

It is interesting that you describe the issue as being about whether you should abandon your beliefs rather than about whether you should attend your daughter's wedding.  To her, it might sound like, "my belief that same-sex marriage is wrong is more powerful than my love for you."  

 

Going back to your original question, if you want to show your daughter and her partner how much you love them, you should attend their wedding.  Simply tell them, "look, I'm not here to abandon my beliefs.  I'm here to tell you both how much I love you, and to sincerely wish you a long and happy life together."  Is saying that internally consistent?  I don't know--if it is an issue to you, put it on the shelf.  You should go to the wedding and support her. God would forgive you.

[Ahab]

Scratch what I said before. I'm pretty sure I couldn't go see her do something I thought she shouldn't do without hoping she would back out of it and just not do it. I wouldn't go see it.

I'd somehow show support for her but while making it clear I would not support her doing something I thought she shouldn't do.

I feel sad for you Pa Pa. Tough situation to be in.

[Daniel2]

Hmmm. It sounds like you are saying that you are not going to her wedding because you think her marriage is in violation of what you think God wants. If that is what's going on, it isn't surprising that she is so hurt.

It is interesting that you describe the issue as being about whether you should abandon your beliefs rather than about whether you should attend your daughter's wedding. To her, it might sound like, "my belief that same-sex marriage is wrong is more powerful than my love for you."

Going back to your original question, if you want to show your daughter and her partner how much you love them, you should attend their wedding. Simply tell them, "look, I'm not here to abandon my beliefs. I'm here to tell you both how much I love you, and to sincerely wish you a long and happy life together." Is saying that internally consistent? I don't know--if it is an issue to you, put it on the shelf. You should go to the wedding and support her. God would forgive you.

For what it's worth, when my devout LDS sister-in-law surprised me by announcing that she planned to attend my wedding just days before our ceremony, I started to say something like, "Thank you so much for coming... I know this subject is a difficu--" Cuttung me off, she gave me a big hug and whispered in my ear, "I'm here for you."

Knowing her as I do, I received and undersrood her message loud and clear: she firmly has and retains a testimony of the church and it's views on marriage, and she even more sronglu understands Christ's message to love one another.

It didn't and doesn't matter to me that she maintains her believe against gay marriage--what mattered most to both of us was that we are family, and we love one another.

And that makes all the differences manageable.

The same message is true of my mother, and my brother, and my aunt who attended.

PaPa, you don't have to abandon your beliefs in attending her wedding to show your daughter you love her, just as she doesn't have to abandon her beliefs when she bows her head in reverence at your table.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Daniel2

[Tacenda]

As you know, I share a lot of the same beliefs and values that Daniel and others that were brought up in the church and are gay. Most of his OP could have been mine as well. Like Daniel and your daughter, I don't expect members of the church to have the same opinions or understanding of gay marriage that I do. And, like Daniel, I too know of your love for your daughter and your sincere desire to be her father. You are a great dad. She is very lucky.

But I would like to address something that I think you may be wrestling with. Should you attend her wedding? Would you be abandoning your beliefs if you did? Would you be abandoning your beliefs to be ok with gays having the right to a civil marriage?

I was talking with my sister the other day. Like your family, my family also has a hard time dealing with the fact that I am gay. The range of emotions and beliefs are all over the board from my sister who has done nothing but shown me kindness from the day I came out to some who I have not seen since that day. I have a few sister in laws who are at the extreme end of the spectrum to the point that they throw fits if anyone suggests that I be invited to any family activity. A family event recently came up and they as in the past made it clear that if I was going, they would not. And since it was them that were "doing what God wanted them to do", then how could any reasonable person choose me, their brother over them. It has only been in the last year, 15 years later since I came out that I have started to be invited back to any family gatherings.

My sister asked this sister in law if she ever went visiting teaching to a family that was not living the gospel? Did she ever visit a neighbor who was not living the gospel? Would she invite them to an activity? Would she invite them even to a family picnic or hike or other outing. If so, how could she not have a member of her own family attend a family event.

Now let's talk about attending your daughter's wedding. Have you ever gone to a Jewish or Catholic wedding? Do you abandon your beliefs by attending those weddings? Do you or others think you are embracing their beliefs by attending? Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress? I don't know if this is an issue for you. But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there. She is your daughter. She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending. What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally. You will be doing what the Savior would have done. The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally. That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you. And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota. Just my thoughts.

So true.

[Stargazer]

All of my children are straight, but I can relate to the problem by putting myself into it, as if one of them were gay.

 

Remarkably enough, I had never even contemplated what I would do if one of them did come out as gay and decided to marry their gay partner.  This thread has caused me to put myself into the situation, and so I believe I can finally say what I would do.

 

I have said on many an occasion, including here on this board, that I don't consider gay marriage to actually be marriage.  "Marriage is between a man and a woman," I have said, and I still believe this. 

 

But attending the gay wedding of my child does not strike me as sinful.  Heck, I've got sons and daughters living in sin with their heterosexual partners, which is no less sinful than living in a gay relationship, and yet I still expect them to come to Thanksgiving dinner and to bring their partners.  So why not their gay partner?  Or "spouse"?  They know where I stand; there's no confusion.

 

If you want my advice, Pa Pa, I'd say you should feel free to attend your daughter's wedding.  Not attending won't change anything, so there's no leverage in staying away.  Go and support her -- I doubt that you would ever regret it.

[Rain]

Was Christ abandoning His beliefs when he came to the aid of the adulteress? I don't know if this is an issue for you. But if your daughter is getting married, then you should be there. She is your daughter. She and others will clearly know that you haven''t abandoned your beliefs just because you are attending. What they will know is that you love your daughter unconditionally. You will be doing what the Savior would have done. The message your daughter will clearly get is that you love her unconditionally. That act of kindness is way more important to her than all the "I love you's" she has ever received from you. And you can attend without abandoning your beliefs one iota. Just my thoughts.

It would take a lot of praying to find out what the Lord would have me do.

The Lord coming to the aid is not a comparable situation. Someone coming to the aid of a gay person about to be beat up is comparable or attending the celebration of the union of an adulterous woman with her lover is comparable with a same sex wedding. I can completely see the Savior coming to the aid of the gay man being cornered by bullies. I don't see him celebrating with the adulterous couple when he told the woman to sin no more. That's why this can be such a hard choice.

But I would want to support my child. I would want him to know of my love for him no matter what.

So I think it is good to share feelings on the matter, but we can't tell papa what he should do. That is between him and the Lord and his advice will likely differ somewhere with all the endless family relationships.

Papa - praying for clear answers and peace for you.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Rain

[Guest]

Hmmm.  It sounds like you are saying that you are not going to her wedding because you think her marriage is in violation of what you think God wants.  If that is what's going on, it isn't surprising that she is so hurt. 

 

It is interesting that you describe the issue as being about whether you should abandon your beliefs rather than about whether you should attend your daughter's wedding.  To her, it might sound like, "my belief that same-sex marriage is wrong is more powerful than my love for you."  

 

Going back to your original question, if you want to show your daughter and her partner how much you love them, you should attend their wedding.  Simply tell them, "look, I'm not here to abandon my beliefs.  I'm here to tell you both how much I love you, and to sincerely wish you a long and happy life together."  Is saying that internally consistent?  I don't know--if it is an issue to you, put it on the shelf.  You should go to the wedding and support her. God would forgive you.

I not going because she is going to New York and I cannot afford to go...something she has tried to keep me from knowing.

[Daniel2]

I not going because she is going to New York and I cannot afford to go...something she has tried to keep me from knowing.

I don't understand... Why is she trying to keep you from knowing where her wedding is? Does she want you to attend...?

[Guest]

I don't understand... Why is she trying to keep you from knowing where her wedding is? Does she want you to attend...?

No, she does not want any of us to attend. No...one.

[Daniel2]

No, she does not want any of us to attend. No...one.

Has she explained why she doesn't want you or others in the family to attend?

[Guest]

Has she explained why she doesn't want you or others in the family to attend?

Yes,motorized to send a PM, your folder I'd full. Or send me one and I will reply.