Who Is This Man? (And Why Is His Picture In The C. E. S. Manual?)

[Uncle Dale]

Reading through the on-line version of an official LDS

Church student manual, prepared by the Church Educational

System, and titled Church History in the Fulness of Times,

I came upon this...

 

.

 

.

A picture of what looks like an important fellow -- and one

who is evidently linked somehow to the "Reaction to

Joseph's Vision," as the section header reads.

 

All around the nicely reproduced engraving there is

"history" presented, relating supposedly hostile reaction

to a vision, said to have occurred on a clear spring day 

in the year 1820. The reaction of "one of the Methodist

preachers" said to have been "very active" in a great

"religious excitement" then in progress in Palmyra is

mentioned. "Bitter persecution" is mentioned.

 

It is also mentioned that something had happened to

"excite the public mind" against the recipient of that

reported vision. "Increasing persecution" is mentioned.

 

It is also stated, on page 35 of that text (upon which the

only illustration is this important-looking fellow's portrait)

that this was "a pivotal event" in history.

 

Who is this fellow? How did he get introduced into accounts

of the beginnings of Mormonism? Why is his picture placed

squarely in the middle of all this narration of "persecution?"

 

Was he the chief persecutor of Joseph Smith, Jr., or something?

 

The on-line 2003 text is an update of the 1993 "Revised Edition"

Did the original 1989 text relate some information, which for

some reason has been removed from these later editions.

 

???

 

Enquiring minds want to know.

 

UD

Edited March 6, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[CV75]

Reading through the on-line version

From the manual: "The Reverend George Lane (1784–1859) was a Methodist minister who lived at the time of Joseph Smith. Smith family tradition linked Lane with the Palmyra revival."

 

See also:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=11051291

Edited March 6, 2015 by CV75

[Uncle Dale]

 

The Reverend George Lane (1784–1859) was a Methodist minister who lived at the time of Joseph Smith. Smith family tradition linked Lane with the Palmyra revival.

 

I figured out that much.

 

But, were I a member of the Lane family, coming upon g-g-g-grandpa's

engraved portrait set amid a great deal of narrative describing the

Protestant minister's (or ministers') persecution of young Joseph, I

would at least expect the publishers of that history to offer a footnote,

explaining WHICH "Smith family tradition linked Lane with the Palmyra revival."

 

Does anybody here know the early history well enough to clue us in

on just what that "Smith family tradition" was that "linked Lane with the

Palmyra revival" of 1820?

 

UD

[rongo]

William Smith reported that Reverend Lane was the one who pointed Joseph to James 1:5. Joseph went home, looked it up, the Spirit bore witness, and he went into the grove. When he told him later about his vision, Reverend Lane "freaked out" at him.

 

I'm grateful to Reverend Lane for recommending that passage to Joseph, even if he rejected the results of it.

[CV75]

I figured out that much.

 

But, were I a member of the Lane family, coming upon g-g-g-grandpa's

engraved portrait set amid a great deal of narrative describing the

Protestant minister's (or ministers') persecution of young Joseph, I

would at least expect the publishers of that history to offer a footnote,

explaining WHICH "Smith family tradition linked Lane with the Palmyra revival."

 

Does anybody here know the early history well enough to clue us in

on just what that "Smith family tradition" was that "linked Lane with the

Palmyra revival" of 1820?

 

UD

https://familysearch.org/photos/stories/6227042

 

Maybe you can contact Larry.

Edited March 6, 2015 by CV75

[Uncle Dale]

William Smith reported that Reverend Lane was the one who pointed Joseph to James 1:5. Joseph went home, looked it up, the Spirit bore witness, and he went into the grove. When he told him later about his vision, Reverend Lane "freaked out" at him.

 

I'm grateful to Reverend Lane for recommending that passage to Joseph, even if he rejected the results of it.

 

 

hmmmmmm...

 

I have this account, left by Bro. William Smith in 1892

 

>the family was called in to hear what the brother had to say in his [Joseph's]

>experience as to his religious findings, the experience and testimony which

>he at that time gave to his father's family, was an entirely different story from

>what the family expected to hear.

>

>When he told them that he had retired in the woods to pray for wisdom that

>God should direct what he should do, it was the story of the angel's visit as

>we have stated, also it was in accordance with the instructions given by

>the Methodist minister, preacher Lane who was one of the principle leaders

>of the reformation, that should any after getting what was called religion,

>have doubted as to what church they should join, that they should go into

>secret prayer and ask God to direct them what to do and what church to join.

 

However, in this account, at least, William says nothing about

George Lane (1784–1859) having freaked out and begun a

vicious persecution of the young lad.

 

Were there two different Rev. Lanes in Palmyra back then?

One in 1820 and another in 1823 (the period William spoke of)

 

???

 

UD

[Gervin]

However, in this account, at least, William says nothing about George Lane (1784–1859) having freaked out and begun a vicious persecution of the young lad.

Is it fair to assume that this type of activity would have been "news" in the sense that local or area newspapers reported on such disturbances or activity related to religious claims or fervor?  I seem to recall (from reading some of your links, perhaps) that the subject of religion was part and parcel of the news reporting within a community. 

[Ahab]

Picture in the CES manual of the Methodist minister who inspired Joseph to read James 1:5 and ask God for wisdom.

Makes sense to me.

[Uncle Dale]

Picture in the CES manual of the Methodist minister who inspired Joseph to read James 1:5 and ask God for wisdom.

Makes sense to me.

 

Unfortunately the picture is not positioned on a prior page, in which

it might make sense -- that this good minister actually gave the

suggestion that started "The Restoration."

 

No -- his picture is positioned on page 35, where there is nothing

but talk about how the non-believers of Palmyra were persecuting

the young boy.

 

If he is meant to be the good minister, then his picture should

appear on page 32, which speaks of young Joseph discovering

the solution to his religious questions, "while reading" "in the Bible."

So, since Rev. Lane's picture is not positioned there -- I assume

that no minister told young Smith to read James 1:5 -- and that

the boy did as the Student Manual says he did.

 

On pages 34-35 (where we see Rev. Lane's picture) all the

Student Manual instruction centers upon "one of the Methodist

preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned [1820]

religious excitement" being the one who told young Smith that

he and his vision "was all of the devil."

 

Right after that mention of the "Methodist preacher... minister"

the reader is exposed to the only illustration attached to this

ungodly rejection and persecution of 1820 -- the portrait of

a "Methodist minister."

 

Is that meant to illustrate the badness of all Methodist ministers?

Or just the Methodist ministers conducting revivals in Palmyra?

Or just the Methodist ministers who pastored congregations there

in the year 1820?

 

Since historical sources (including William Smith) place the

pictured Rev. Lane as coming to Palmyra and taking charge

of ministry there many, many months after a clear spring day

in the year 1820, he cannot possibly be either a Methodist

minister who suggested reading James 1:5 in 1820, nor a

bad preacher who told Joseph Smith that he was of the devil

in that same year of 1820.

 

But, perhaps Rev. Lane himself had something to say about

those times and where he was, and what he was doing.

 

Did he?

 

UD

(and would anybody in the CES know whether he did or not?)

Edited March 6, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

 

Maybe you can contact Larry.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. As luck would have it, Dr. Porter's 1971

dissertation is sitting on the shelf up above my computer, so it's an

easy reach...

 

hmmmmm...

 

He says that "For an entire year, then, from July 1824 to July 1825,

Lane presided over the [Methodist] district within the confines of

which the Smith family resided... From the foregoing evidence, it is

easy to see that Joseph Smith could have had contact with Rev. Lane

at a number of points during this extended period..."

 

Indeed -- I suppose nobody disputes the fact that Lane was the primary

Methodist official in the Palmyra area at the time. The Chase family,

living across the road from the Smiths would have been among the

families served by Lane and his circuit riding preachers. If the Chase

well had not yet been dug in 1824 or 1825, Rev. Lane might have even

stopped at the Smith cabin to get a drink of water, while traveling along

dusty Stafford road.

 

So far, so good..... for 1824 -- after Alvin had died -- when the "revival"

remembered by Brother William, Mother Lucy, and a host of other area

residents was in full swing. Lane himself appears to have been a key

figure in getting that 1824-25 religious excitement going in the first place.

 

However, Dr. Porter has a little more to say (let me read on, the dissertation

is perched precariously in my lap, as I type) --

 

He says: "If such an acquaintance had existed, when would it have been?"

 

Now there's a $64 question, if ever there was one.

 

When?

 

Porter notices that even Oliver Cowdery, way back in 1834, knew something

about Rev. Lane and the Smith family.

 

Porter next devotes more than a page of pondering, over why Cowdery and

others were fixated on the 1823-24-25 period, as being the time when Lane

was living there (In Palmyra?) and conducting a revival, and encountering

people like the Smiths of Manchester.

 

But then the doctoral candidate slides away from the entire question, leaving

his readers to scratch their heads over the footnotes, and come away no better

informed as to whether this same Rev. Lane suggested that young Joe read

the Epistle of James -- or whether he condemned that same little lad for having

done just that, and having thus discovered which of all the churches merited his

joining it. -- Answer: none of them.

 

But DID Rev. Lane make such a suggestion, to young Joseph (or to a group of

folks gathered around the listening boy)? And, if he did, WHEN was that? And,

if Joseph later had a problematic encounter with the preacher, WHEN was that?

 

Where is the historical evidence to be discovered, verifying that Rev. Lane's

picture has any connection whatsoever with camp-meetings in 1820, or with

the Great Palmyra Revival of 1824?

 

I have the sneaking feeling, that if the C.E.S. manual-writers had solicited

Larry's advice, he would have never recommended pasting Lane's picture in

the Church's book (let alone inserting it in the middle of the persecution part)

 

One thing that Dr. Porter mentions, is that Rev. Lane's residence during the

late 1810s and early 1820s was in southern Broome Co., New York, and that

the Methodist preacher would have had opportunities to become acquainted

with the Methodist Hale family, living just south of Lane's Windsor headquarters.

 

I happen to have a map of exactly the area Dr. Porter is referring to:

 

 

view larger scale image

 

What are we to make of all this?

 

UD

Edited March 7, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

 

...

 

 

 

view larger scale image

 

What are we to make of all this?

 

UD

 

.

The map got me to thinking -- maybe there once was something more

written about the Methodists in southern Broome County (and across

the state line in the "Great Bend" country -- so, I took a look, and a

couple of items caught my eye (later than the 1834 Cowdery letter,

but not so late as the William Smith recollections)

 

>Annals of Luzerne County by Stewart Pearce (1860)

>

>[296-297]

>

>In 1810, the Genesee Conference was formed, comprehending the

>Susquehanna District within its bounds...

>In 1812, George Harmon became presiding elder of the district...

>George Peck was the preacher in 1818, and he was followed in

>1819 by Marmaduke Pearce, who had been presiding elder of the

>district for the preceding four years. George Lane succeeded

>Mr. Pearce in the presiding eldership, and in 1820 Elisha Bebins

>was the traveling preacher...

>In 1822, the preachers were J. D. Gilbert and W. W. Rundel, and

>these were followed in 1823 by George Lane...

>The Life and Sermons of Rev. William Wyatt (1878) by William Wyatt

>

>[52-58]

>

>Windsor first appears upon the minutes as a charge in 1832, yet Methodism was

>introduced into that place many years before.... There two boys studied their

>spelling-book, reading-book, and arithmetic, and made good proficiency.

>These were George Lane and Selah Payne. Their highest ambition was to

>prepare themselves for school teachers, a business in great demand in the

>new settlements. Mr. Lane worked at farming during the summer and taught

>school in the winter. He was employed by Putnam Catlin, at the Great Bend,

>through the summer of 1802. After he became converted, and was made a preacher

>

>...Windsor was a small village on the west bank of the Susquehanna river,

>of fifty houses, and was formerly known as Oquago, and in an early day was

>inhabited by Indians.... I preached on the Sabbath in the Church in Windsor,

>held class meeting with them, and was glad to find a goodly number, who

>gave good testimony for the Lord. My next appointment was at Harpersville.

>Here we preached in a school-house, in the afternoon, to few members and a

>small congregation. This place was named after one of the early and principal

>settlers, related to the Harpers of New York. A son of the family was a drover.

>He took a drove of cattle out west, for which he received a large sum of money.

>He was followed by a ruffian, robbed and murdered...

>Here lived Brother and Sister Cowdry, another good home for the preachers,

>and it was well occupied during our stay among them...  My stringed mittens

>and camel's hair cloak went well together, and so for the present my wardrobe

> was complete. Brother and Sister Cowdry enjoyed it hugely...

>

>My next appointment was at or near Jesse [sic Isaac] Hale's, about four miles above

>the Bend.  Here we had a flourishing Society... Joseph Smith, the Great Mormon

>Prophet, married his daughter, obtaining her (so it was said, to say the least of it),

>without her father's consent...

>The History of Lee County, Iowa (1879)

>

>[465]

>

>Jo Smith, the Prophet and founder of the Mormon Church of Latter-Day Saints...

>removed from Vermont to Wayne County, N. Y., and settled at Palmyra. In March, 1820,

>a Rev. Mr. Lane, of the Methodist Episcopal Church, was conducting a revival meeting

>at Palmyra, and the embryo prophet professed a change of heart. Although he was

>only about fifteen years of age at that time, the traits of character that made him so

>notorious in after-life began to be wonderfully developed. Soon after his conversion, he

>claimed to have received a revelation from on high, and stated that, while engaged in

>prayer in the woods, the power of the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and that God, the Father,

>and Jesus Christ, the Son, appeared unto him, saying that his sins were forgiven him;

>that all the old Christian organizations and denominations were wrong, and that he was

>chosen of the Lord to re-instate His Kingdom and re-establish His Gospel on earth.

>(possibly written by Dabney C. Rid**** of Montrose, Iowa)

 

 

At least that's a beginning.

 

UD

[St. Bookmark]

Well let's look into it and find out

[Tacenda]

Uncle Dale, I love your detective work, can't wait for the answer.  I learned the other day that we don't have strong evidence for the story of Joseph Smith's refusing alcohol during his operation.  Is that just anti or is there evidence?  Sorry to derail.

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dale, I love your detective work, can't wait for the answer. I learned the other day that we don't have strong evidence for the story of Joseph Smith's refusing alcohol during his operation. Is that just anti or is there evidence? Sorry to derail.

As best I can determine, young Joseph had some fairly

good medical attention for that day and age. Had the family

then been living out in the wilds of western New York, he most

likely would have lost the leg (and perhaps his life). But the

family lived near Dartmouth College and there were trained

physicians with medical equipment close at hand.

I have no idea what went on before, during and after the operation.

There are no objective reports (and I distrust Lucy to be fully

reliable, when there are no confirming sources). The one thing I

can accept is that the experience was a traumatic one. It must

have left its effects on the boys psyche -- but what effects?

...

I think that the LDS Church is doing the wrong thing, by subtly

insinuating that Rev. Lane was Joseph Smith's persecutor in

1820. Lane did not even arrive in the Palmyra area until mid-1824.

As Larry Porter says -- it's possible that Lane passed through

Palmyra once or twice, while visiting that general area. It appears

that there was once a letter waiting for him in a post office -- but

whether or not he stopped there and picked it up, nobody knows.

On the other hand, if we think of the "Great Palmyra Revival" as

beginning in 1824, with Lane at its center, as its chief promoter --

then the "Lane as persecutor" scenario makes some sense. Even

if he kept his home down by the Susquehanna, he would have

traveled all through Ontario County, carrying out his supervisory

duties (he was functionally carrying out the work of a Methodist

bishop, who typically supervised several circuit-riders back then).

Thus, if Joseph Smith WAS persecuted by the Methodists, during

Rev. Lane's tenure in the Ontario County region, Lane would have

carried the ultimate responsibility, to censure any bad conduct by

a Methodist circuit riding preacher and (if necessary) make apologies

to the Smith family.

But, as I said -- that would have been between mid-1824 and mid-1825.

In order to account for such a possibility (and thus open up the scholarly

door, providing some incentive for research) we need to have the LDS

historians out looking for the missing (or suppressed) evidence.

1820 is the wrong year. Here's my own red-letter note inserted into a copy

of a typical TBM posting, associating Lane with events of that year:

.

This faith-promoting graphic is as erroneous as the CES illustration.

If Lane's picture is to be so used, the year must be 1824.

That is the period spoken of in the first published Church history articles,

written by the "second elder" of the Church, and overseen by that sect's

First Elder -- that is when (1834-35) an official Mormon account was given

to the world, in the Church's own newspaper -- introducing the Rev.

Mr. Lane (and his revival) into Mormon history.

If Mormons began researching the activities of the Smith family during the

years 1823-24-25, they could discover a great deal more regarding the

"Great Palmyra Revival" -- but, so far as I can see, their primary emphasis

centers on the 1823 equinox, and after that they lose interest (except for

trying to justify Father Smith's opening Alvin's grave, late in that period).

Investigate the revival initiated and promoted by Rev. Lane in 1824 --

that would be the logical thing to do. We might learn more about the

Smith family. That was when they became Presbyterians. That is the

period Mother Lucy and Brother William keep directing us back to.

I asked earlier whether or not Rev. Lane had anything to say about a

revival in Manchester. In his interview with the Pittsburgh Gazette editor,

Joseph himself said that a revival started there in his own neighborhood.

I've found a Lane account and I've posted the Gazette interview on the

web, as a beginning -- to investigate the 1824 Great Palmyra Revival.

If anybody's interested, I'll add some excerpts from those texts to this thread.

UD

Edited March 7, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

 

...In his interview with the Pittsburgh Gazette editor, Joseph

himself said that a revival started there in his own neighborhood.

...

 

.

Well -- that's not exactly correct. For all we know the "revival"

started in the Cane Rigde meeting-house and had been going

on for years -- here and there -- in small outbursts, which came

and went, and which spread out in all directions from Kentucky.

 

Then again, there had always been camp-meetings and small

revivals -- even in the "dark days" of Jeffersonian Deism,

Unitarianism, and "French infidelism."

 

Let's see what Joseph had to say about his "neighborhood," tho.

 

 

Vol. LVIII.         Pittsburgh, Penn., Friday  Morning,  September  15, 1843.            No. 3.

 

 

>...We spent about an hour conversing on various subjects, the prophet himself with

>amazing volubility, occupying the most of the time, and his whole theme was himself.

>Let us give whatever turn to the conversation, he would adroitly bring it back to

>himself.... the prophet ran off, talking incessantly, Speaking of revelations...

>

>The Lord does reveal himself to me. I know it. He revealed himself to me

>first when I was about fourteen years old, a mere boy. I will tell you about

>it. There was a reformation among the different religious denominations

>in the neighborhood where I lived, and I became serious, and was desirous

>to know what church to join.

>

>While thinking of this matter, I opened the testament promiscuously on

>these words, in James, "Ask of the Lord who giveth to all men liberally

>and upbraideth not." -- I just determined I'd ask him. I immediately went

>out into the woods where my father had a clearing, and went to the stump,

>where I had stuck my axe when I had quit work, and I kneeled down,

>and prayed, saying, 'O Lord, what church shall I join?'

>

>Directly I saw a light, and then a glorious personage in the light, and

>then another personage, and the first personage said to the second,

>'Behold my beloved son, hear him.' I then, addressed this second

>person, saying, 'O Lord, what church shall I join?' He replied, 'don't

>join any of them, they are all corrupt.' The vision then vanished, and

>when I came to myself, I was sprawling on my back; and it was some

>time before my strength returned. When I went home and told the

>people that I had a revelation, and that all the churches were corrupt,

> they persecuted me, and they have persecuted me ever since....

 

.

So, if we can trust this report (which was published during Smith's

lifetime, and evidently never criticized nor corrected by any of the

topmost Church leaders) -- if we do trust it -- what do we learn?

 

1. - That Joseph (recollecting backwards from 1843) places some 

remarkable events as occurring when he was "about" 14 -- Add

14 to his birth year of (just barely before) 1806 and we arrive at

the much-quoted year of 1820.

 

To which we must add the fudge-factor of whatever the vague

word "about" is supposed to mean. 1819? Maybe. 1821? Maybe.

1818? Unlikely, since the Smith family was making the move from

Palmyra down to Manchester in stages, and the family was mostly

in Palmyra, most of that time. 1817? ---- A very good year for

revival fervor in and around Palmyra; but the Smiths were not at

Manchester and "young Joe" was very, very young then.

 

What about 1822? That would still fall into the "about" range.

1823? Getting a little late to fit into Joseph Smith's own telling of

his chronology, but an intriguing year, nevertheless. One LDS

writer has speculated that Joseph's own family members became

confused, and conflated various religious experiences into that

year -- or, became even more confused, and thought young Joe

was talking about having a "first vision" during that year.

 

1824 -- ??? If Joseph consistently told the accurate, reliable and

honest truth, then 1824 would be too late to be included in the hazy

"about" related to the visiting Pittsburgh editor.

 

2. - But where? Was this a mass revival that began in, say Rochester, or

Syracuse, or Buffalo? Did it sweep into Palmyra and Manchester from

the outside world?

 

Or, was it a reformation especially noticeable in Joseph's "neighborhood?"

 

Food for thought.

 

UD

(and -- where in all of this is Rev. Lane? Inspiring influence, or evil persecutor?)

Edited March 7, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Robert F. Smith]

William Smith reported that Reverend Lane was the one who pointed Joseph to James 1:5. Joseph went home, looked it up, the Spirit bore witness, and he went into the grove. When he told him later about his vision, Reverend Lane "freaked out" at him.

 

I'm grateful to Reverend Lane for recommending that passage to Joseph, even if he rejected the results of it.

There are a couple of problems with your wrongo interpretation, rongo:  George Lane wasn't around until 1824 to give that advice, and William Smith may have telescoped different events when describing it all much later (a normal problem which all of us experience).  The sources are discussed in Lavina F. Anderson, Lucy's Book, 6, 332 note 13, and 357 note 76.

 

Additionally, "freaked out" was then an obsolete English phrase last used in 1511, and could not have been used by Rev. Lane . . .  

[Robert F. Smith]

.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   

 

Food for thought.

 

UD

(and -- where in all of this is Rev. Lane? Inspiring influence, or evil persecutor?)

Food for nonsense . . .

Your comments here exhibit considerable confusion about how human memory works, and ignores what we know of actual historical reconstruction -- which is always fraught with internal contradictions, and will always have "loose ends" accompanying, even after all the documents have been thoroughly vetted.

 

Then too, you ignore Mike Quinn's demonstration that 1820 is a very likely year (despite all the humbug we have been subjected to).  Yet, the truth is, Dale, that we just don't know which year it was, and it is doubtful whether Joseph himself could recall the precise year.  After all, his mother could not recall which year her son Alvin was born (she was one year off).

 

Just last year, I went through a lengthy gov't background check, which included an hour-long interrogation in a police station (no, I wasn't being charged with anything -- the Federal interviewer simply wanted to do it in a neutral place).  He had done his homework, and found a discrepancy in one of my graduation dates.  I thought him wrong, but, when I got home and checked my records, I was off by one year.  In the real world, we must face the likelihood of such discrepancies.

[Robert F. Smith]

As best I can determine, young Joseph had some fairly

good medical attention for that day and age. Had the family

then been living out in the wilds of western New York, he most

likely would have lost the leg (and perhaps his life). But the

family lived near Dartmouth College and there were trained

physicians with medical equipment close at hand.

I have no idea what went on before, during and after the operation.

There are no objective reports (and I distrust Lucy to be fully

reliable, when there are no confirming sources). The one thing I

can accept is that the experience was a traumatic one. It must

have left its effects on the boys psyche -- but what effects?

.................................................................  

"No objective reports," my foot!!

What part of Joseph's operation (sequestrectomy) for pyogenic osteomyelitis as a complication of typhoid fever don't you understand, Dale?   Dr. LeRoy S. Wirthlin (former professor at Harvard Medical School) provided the details in BYU Studies, 17/3 (1977):319-337, many years ago, and you can read about them online at  https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/issue/view/525 .

 

In 1813, during a Jewish Sabbatical year, young Joseph (age 7) went to stay with his uncle Jesse Smith in Salem, Massachusetts (near the ancestral Smith home in Topsfield), in order to recuperate from that leg surgery, which left a "ritual" scar – he limped ever after:  What other, archetypal "limping" smith do we know of?

 

Maybe Hephaestos-Vulcan, and perhaps we should also compare Oedipus Rex, whose tragic story parallels that of Joseph-who-was-sold-into-Egypt (for whom Joseph Smith Sr & Jr have been prophetically named) – see the detailed comparison of Oedipus & Joseph in Genesis 37ff in René Girard, "The Bible is Not a Myth," BYU Forum Address, 13 Nov 1984, as part of the Eighth Annual Symposium in the Humanities, "Myth, Literature, and the Bible," and published in Literature and Belief, 4 (1984):7-15.

[Uncle Dale]

"No objective reports," my foot!!

What part of Joseph's operation (sequestrectomy) for pyogenic osteomyelitis as a complication of typhoid fever don't you understand, Dale?   Dr. LeRoy S. Wirthlin (former professor at Harvard Medical School) provided the details in BYU Studies, 17/3 (1977):319-337, many years ago, and you can read about them online at  https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/issue/view/525 .

 

In 1813, during a Jewish Sabbatical year, young Joseph (age 7) went to stay with his uncle Jesse Smith in Salem, Massachusetts (near the ancestral Smith home in Topsfield), in order to recuperate from that leg surgery, which left a "ritual" scar – he limped ever after:  What other, archetypal "limping" smith do we know of?

 

Maybe Hephaestos-Vulcan, and perhaps we should also compare Oedipus Rex, whose tragic story parallels that of Joseph-who-was-sold-into-Egypt (for whom Joseph Smith Sr & Jr have been prophetically named) – see the detailed comparison of Oedipus & Joseph in Genesis 37ff in René Girard, "The Bible is Not a Myth," BYU Forum Address, 13 Nov 1984, as part of the Eighth Annual Symposium in the Humanities, "Myth, Literature, and the Bible," and published in Literature and Belief, 4 (1984):7-15.

 

From all of what you just quoted, which is the proper answer

regarding young Joseph's anesthetic during that operation:

 

1. He was offered alcohol, and refused it.

 

2. He was offered laudanum, took it, and spit it out.

 

3. His mother forced him to breath chloroform and he passed out.

 

4. Since there was no confirmation from an objective witness,

we really do not know the answer.

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

...

If anybody's interested, I'll add some excerpts from those texts to this thread.

 

 

.

I'm not sure if anybody IS interested, but here's one interesting item:

.

 

 

The  Methodist  Magazine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

No. 4.                             New York City, April, 1825.                             Vol. VIII.

 

 

REVIVAL OF RELIGION ON ONTARIO DISTRICT.

Letter from the Rev. George Lane, dated Wilkesbarre, January 25, 1825.

 

With inexpressible gratitude to the great Head of the church, I am enabled to inform you that the work of the Lord is prospering gloriously on Ontario district. The first quarterly meeting after conference was held on Lyons circuit, town of Sodus, September 4th and 5th. Many attended, and much of the divine presence was realized. The next week commenced our camp-meeting, in Ulysses, Seneca circuit. In this place deep rooted prejudices against camp-meetings had for some time existed, and it was with some difficulty that leave of the quarterly meeting was obtained to hold one...

September 18th and 19th [1824] our quarterly meeting for Catherine circuit was held at Hector... From Catherine I went to Ontario circuit, where the Lord had already begun a gracious work in Palmyra. This is a pleasant village, situate on the great western canal, about twenty-two miles east of Rochester, and is now in a flourishing condition. In this place the work commenced in the spring, and progressed moderately until the time of the quarterly meeting, which was held on the 25th and 26th of September. About this time it appeared to break out afresh. Monday evening, after the quarterly meeting, there were four converted, and on the following evening, at a prayer meeting at Dr. Chase's, there were seven. Among these was a young woman by the name of Lucy Stoddard... she appeared, like Enoch, to walk with God; "scarcely a cloud did arise to darken her sky, or hide, for a moment, her Lord from her eye." In about one week after her conversion she was married to Mr. Hiram Wilcox... The same week she was married she was attacked by a bilious remittant fever, which terminated in a typhus fever... From Saturday night to the time of her dissolution, which took place on Monday following, she seemed wholly swallowed up in God. Though extremely weak, she was almost incessantly employed in exhortations, prayer, and praise...

.From this place I proceeded around the district, and I think I may say in truth, that God was with us at all our quarterly meetings...

... it pleased God, the week following, to pour out his Spirit on the people of this neighbourhood, in a remarkable manner. The vivifying flame was simultaneously felt throughout the society. Convictions deep and aweful arrested the sinner, and conversions, in many instances luminous as the sun, succeeded. In two weeks time I again visited the place, when upward of thirty professed to have experienced religion, and the work, at that time, appeared in a most promising condition. On other parts of the circuit also, the preachers were greatly encouraged. December 11th and 12th our quarterly meeting for Ontario circuit was held in Ontario. It was attended with showers of blessings, and we have reason to believe that much good work was done, Here I found that the work, which had for some time been going on in Palmyra, had broken out from the village like a mighty flame, and was spreading in every direction. When I left the place, December 22d [1824], there had, in the village and its vicinity, upward of one hundred and fifty joined the [Methodist] society, besides a number that had joined other churches, and many that joined no church.

December 18th and 19th we held our quarterly meeting for Geneva and Canandaigua circuit, in the village of Geneva... December 25 and 26, quarterly meeting for Crooked lake circuit was held at Bellona....

Nor are the local preachers idle spectators of what is going on; but on the contrary, many of them are very active and useful. Indeed, the official members generally appear to be animated with a growing zeal for the prosperity of Zion; and in many instances private members also manifest the deepest concern for their fellow creatures, and labour indefatigably to turn them from darkness to light, and are often successful. May this gracious work continue to prosper until the whole land is filled with the knowledge and love of God; to whose name shall be all the glory. Amen and Amen...

 

.P. S. Having just received a letter from the Rev. J. B. Alverson, I cannot deny myself the pleasure of subjoining an extract. He writes from

                            Canandaigua, January 13, 1825.

    Dear Brother, -- With pleasure I employ a moment to give you information of the

progress of the work of God on your district. In Geneva the work has increased

considerably since you were there; likewise in Rushville. In each place several have

joined the society. On Ontario circuit, brother Smith informs me, the prospects are

very promising. Two hundred have been added since conference. On Lyons the Lord

continues to visit the people in great mercy. At Clyde the prospect is great, -- several

have recently experienced religion at Lyons village village. Eight have lately professed

a determination to seek the Lord, in the Vicinity of Newark; four of whom have obtained

evidence of pardon. At Sherman's the work is gradually increasing and extending. At

Sulphur springs the work goes on as powerfully as ever; seven were converted last

sabbath evening. On Monday evening an attempt was made to carry the war into the

enemy's territory, by holding a watch night in Vienna. Mourners from the Springs, crowded

the altar of mercy, and three found peace that evening, and one the next morning. Sixty-one

have experienced religion since this revival commenced, and forty-one have joined the

society. The current has taken a proper direction, flows on without obstruction, and

astonishes all who behold it.

                  Yours, very affectionately,

                                                    J. B. ALVERSON.

 

Note 1: As an aid in orienting the reader's attention to the various place names provided by the above correspondents to the Methodist Magazine, an early area map of western New York is available on-line -- also here -- Vienna was located at the unnamed circle, 7 miles south of Newark, in the upper right corner of Ontario County. In his 1851 article, "Origin of the Mormon Imposture," Palmyra resident Orsmaus Turner wrote of the young Joseph Smith, Jr.: "Joseph had a little ambition, and some very laudable aspirations... after catching a spark of Methodism in the camp-meeting, away down in the woods, on the Vienna road, he was a very passable exhorter in evening meetings." It is quite possible that the "camp meeting" the Smith youth attended was the same "watch night" held in Vienna in early January 1825, that the Methodist Rev. J. B. Alverson makes mention of. However, since Orsamus Turner had left Palmyra prior to 1825, it is equally possible that he was recalling a Methodist camp-meeting in the general area of Palmyra, as early as 1820. See the Palmyra Register of for mention of one such meeting.

Note 2: For similar reports on the 1824-25 religious revival which was centered in Palmyra, see the letter of Rev. Solomon Goodale, published in the American Baptist Magazine of

April, 1825 and the quotation from the Jan. 15, 1825 issue of the Rochester Religious Advocate, as reprinted in the Mar. 2, 1825 issue of the Palmyra Wayne Sentinel.

 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[emeliza]

Hello Uncle Dale~  Long time no talk to.  How is your wife?  How is Hawaii?

 

I guess I have a different take on things.  The first being that the religious revival is not what you and I would consider a revival and was probably a smaller affair that stirred up people Joseph was close to...especially his own family since they were somewhat separated in denominations.

 

The second was that the Rev was not necessarily involved in the persecution, but rather he had harsh words with Joseph over what Joseph told him.  I would guess the experience meant a whole lot more to Joseph than it did to the Rev who most likely thought some dumb kid was telling him a story and he just put him in his place.

 

Anyway I hope all is well and nice to see you around.  I rarely participate on the board anymore, but do lurk from time to time.

[Uncle Dale]

Hello Uncle Dale~  Long time no talk to.  How is your wife?  How is Hawaii?

 

I guess I have a different take on things.  The first being that the religious revival is not what you and I would consider a revival and was probably a smaller affair that stirred up people Joseph was close to...especially his own family since they were somewhat separated in denominations.

 

The second was that the Rev was not necessarily involved in the persecution, but rather he had harsh words with Joseph over what Joseph told him.  I would guess the experience meant a whole lot more to Joseph than it did to the Rev who most likely thought some dumb kid was telling him a story and he just put him in his place.

 

Anyway I hope all is well and nice to see you around.  I rarely participate on the board anymore, but do lurk from time to time.

 

Oh, we get by OK -- and Hawaii continues to be paradise,

same as usual. (See George Clooney's "The Descendants"

for our wardrobe -- though not our neighborhood -- sigh!)

 

There no doubt were camp-meetings accompanied by occasional

"excitement" in and around Palmyra. 1817 and 1824 were the really

remarkable years -- but for people experiencing dramatic religious

conversions, the year of their "experience" would certainly stand

out as particularly memorable.

 

Did Joseph blend together the interior and exterior circumstances

from various different years when he told his story (to various people,

on different occasions for nearly 20 years running)?? Perhaps so.

 

However, to many Mormons, the Pearl of Great Price is the sacred

word of God, and what is stated in its pages stands as a "truth"

above and beyond such mundane things as memory lapses.

 

Oliver Cowdery got Rev. Lane involved in the birth of Mormonism,

even though Lane himself evidently never said a word about the

Smith family, nor their situation in early 1820s Manchester. That

early mention might have been forgotten to history, except for its

occasionally popping up in reprints of the Cowdery letters. Then

we see it repeated in an 1879 Iowa history volume. But, what really

put the icing on the cake, was Borther William Smith's several

mentions of the Methodist administrator. So far as I can tell, William

never said a bad word against the fellow, however.

 

The temptation for some latter day history writers (both LDS & RLDS)

to quote William must have been overwhelming -- and especially so

after he was dead and buried (and could not disagree with anybody's

imaginative speculations). Thus, inadvertently, William is partly to blame

for the current mis-use of Rev. Lane's portrait in various faith-promoting

stories, that pass for "true history."

 

Give ten kids ten identical coloring books, and each one of them a

set of crayons, and each individual mind colors in the blank spots in

the outline pictures.

 

That's what we do -- unfortunately -- all too often, and then attempt to

pass off our mental creations as trustworthy history.

 

Did Joseph Smith do the same thing? Did he "color over the lines"

here and there, and depict some things in a way "not quite right?"

 

I'll let others answer those questions. In the meanwhile, I think I'll try

to dispel the all to prevalent notion, that George Lane is THIS GUY:

 

 

 

Come again when you can lurk longer.

Your old friend,

Uncle Dale

[Robert F. Smith]

From all of what you just quoted, which is the proper answer

regarding young Joseph's anesthetic during that operation:

 

1. He was offered alcohol, and refused it.

 

2. He was offered laudanum, took it, and spit it out.

 

3. His mother forced him to breath chloroform and he passed out.

 

4. Since there was no confirmation from an objective witness,

we really do not know the answer.

 

UD

Of course we don't, but that doesn't negate Mother Smith's version of things, nor cast doubt upon it.  What would we expect from an era with very little documentation anyhow?

 

However, all that is not the same as saying that we know nothing about the operation, nor that there is no objective evidence.  We can at least set a credible mise en scene.  Which is pretty surprising in that day and age.

[Robert F. Smith]

 

............................................................  

Did Joseph blend together the interior and exterior circumstances

from various different years when he told his story (to various people,

on different occasions for nearly 20 years running)?? Perhaps so.

 

However, to many Mormons, the Pearl of Great Price is the sacred

word of God, and what is stated in its pages stands as a "truth"

above and beyond such mundane things as memory lapses.

..........................................................................................................................  

That's what we do -- unfortunately -- all too often, and then attempt to

pass off our mental creations as trustworthy history.

 

Did Joseph Smith do the same thing? Did he "color over the lines"

here and there, and depict some things in a way "not quite right?"

............................................................................................................................  

You can put as negative a spin on it as you will, Dale, and hold Joseph to a higher standard than we normally do to such non-professional historiography, but I think it unfair for the same reasons that Mike Quinn thinks it unfair, perhaps even absurd.

 

The infallibility theory just doesn't jibe with Mormon theology or practice, even if there are some occasional Mormons out there who do think like that -- and I have met some.  We occasionally meet them on this board, and some of them are now on the exmormons website -- having felt betrayed by their own misunderstanding of their former religion.

[Uncle Dale]

 

...

 

The infallibility theory just doesn't jibe with Mormon theology or practice

...

 

 

Maybe not "Mormon" practice -- but I'm no expert on that topic.

 

Recall, if you will, that my early training and education was from

teachers who told me that the "knew beyond a shadow of a doubt"

(not believed -- but "knew" to such a degree they'd bet the farm on it)

that the Nephite Record was preserved upon plates of gold - unaltered

by the Great and Abominable Church - a perfect record.

 

Except, of course for printing errors introduced into the text by

that evil Gentile, Mr. Grandin, and his workmen.

 

Not that such a mindset is right, wrong, or indifferent -- just that

it was the "mold" into which the formation of my young mind was 

left to solidify, over many, many years.

 

Whether "the Mormons" may say something is infallible, or not,

my mental "eyes" see things in a way different from what yours

(or any faithful, worthy and righteous Mormon's) might perceive.

 

My mind was locked into the explanation that each and every

word of the Nephite Record appeared before the translator's

gaze in glowing, perfect English -- which did not fade away until

his scribe had written it down perfectly.

 

My thought processes were constrained by the powerful teachings

telling me that the D&C and the JST and even the hymns in Emma's

hymnal were as near perfect, and unalterable, as ever a thing has

appeared on this planet.

 

And, although you (and educated thoughtful LDS) may not think

that way, I've met plenty who do.

 

Your time would be well spent teaching them some of your more

enlightened viewpoints, Pilgrim.

 

It's a dangerous thing, to let wrongly-taught kids go through life

like that -- for when they perceive "the man behind the curtain"

their faith in Oz crumbles like a sandcastle.

 

So -- IF God would actually allow Joseph to screw it up -- how much?

Maybe a comma here -- a semi-colon there?

 

Nobody ever tells me these things. All I hear is "Follow the Prophet."

"Sustain The Brethren." "Endure unto the end." -- None of which work

very well, trying to dig out history of the kind that actually compels

Living Prophets to eventually correct a wrong date for Alvin's death

in the PGP.

 

It's like bailing out the Titanic with a teaspoon. But, as my wife says,

it's "a better hobby than bank-robbing, I suppose."

 

Any idea where I can get a bigger spoon?

 

UD

Edited March 8, 2015 by Uncle Dale