The Problem With Science: It's Not Credible

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

I did not say that greenland was never warmer, my graphs are about the entire Northern Hemisphere, not greenland alone. The other graphs are your graphs, not mine. Please read Severinghaus's e-mail, there is no controversy that man is warming the planet.

 

Kin

Let me get this straight. Man is cause the globe to warm up. It is going to warm up .6 degree's over 100 years due to man's influence. That warming is going to be so catastrophic that we are all doomed. Some claim, on this very board, that it is too late.

 

How ever, it has been shown that in the past it has been much hotter than even the projected .6 degrees. Let say that the models are correct. That .6 degree increase is going to happen over 100 years. Tell me how that is really going to do anything?

 

I think the models are wrong but I don't care to get into that. I think any warming that is because of man is so minuscule that it really doesn't matter.

 

Anyway, how is a .6 degree increase so catastrophic? What is the justification for these outlandish claims?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

When did I say that greenland was never warmer in the past? Pogi claims that I posted some graphs showing that 

So think about this, it was warmer in the past and the planet didn't die. We are all still here. So why the claims that we are all doomed? IE catastrophic global warming.

 

The point it is that it is not a big deal.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Scientists are not completely sure that AGW is causing the melting (see post 663) because scientists don't jump to conclusions very quickly like pogi and ERayR. However, it is very likely that AGW is contributing to the melting.  

They are not sure, ie they can't prove it just like salt causes high blood pressure. Oh oops we were wrong about that too.

 

I am willing to bet that "AWG" has nothing to do with the melting in green land.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Let me get this straight. Man is cause the globe to warm up. It is going to warm up .6 degree's over 100 years due to man's influence. That warming is going to be so catastrophic that we are all doomed. Some claim, on this very board, that it is too late.

 

just because there will likely be serious consequences doesn't mean that we are all doomed. Many projections are still debatable, but the science is clear that humans are causing GW.

 

 

Anyway, how is a .6 degree increase so catastrophic? What is the justification for these outlandish claims?

 

Read about Earth's five mass extinction events. I am not sure if we ever had a 6 degree warming in just one century  in the history of planet, but I don't think we will reach a 6 degree warming by the end of the century, that is too much. 

 

I am willing to bet that "AWG" has nothing to do with the melting in green land.

 

You are free to believe what ever you want, that is what the oil companies want you to believe.  

 

 

they can't prove it just like salt causes high blood pressure. Oh oops we were wrong about that too.

 

but it was not a scientific consensus. The scientific consensus has been wrong in the past, but I can create a huge list of number of times the general public has been wrong 

 

Edited April 10, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[thesometimesaint]

So think about this, it was warmer in the past and the planet didn't die. We are all still here. So why the claims that we are all doomed? IE catastrophic global warming.

 

The point it is that it is not a big deal.

 

No one is saying the planet will die. That is your strawman argument. The last time there was 400 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere there were no people on this planet, or the food crops we depend upon.

 

 

They are not sure, ie they can't prove it just like salt causes high blood pressure. Oh oops we were wrong about that too.

 

I am willing to bet that "AWG" has nothing to do with the melting in green land.

 

Science doesn't prove anything in the absolute sense of the word. Heck we're still debating what gravity is. but that does mean its a good idea to jump off a high cliff without parachute. More correctly salt does cause high blood pressure in those that are salt sensitive, AND are not getting enough Potassium in their diet.

 

You'd lose that bet.

SEE http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/thick-melt.html

[TheSkepticChristian]

That is your strawman argument. 

 

2/3 of Evangelical Christians do not believe in Global Warming because they think that only God controls the climate. I estimate that about 4/5 of USA LDS don't believe in Global Warming.

 

 

 

"Why do I care about it? Here are my values, and here, based on my values, are why I care. If we can get past the issue of rhetoric and politics, and actually start talking about what's in our hearts, I have seen amazing things happen in terms of moving forward to look at solutions that are consistent with the values that we have" - Katharine Hayhoe

Edited April 10, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No one is saying the planet will die. That is your strawman argument. The last time there was 400 ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere there were no people on this planet, or the food crops we depend upon.

 

 

 

Science doesn't prove anything in the absolute sense of the word. Heck we're still debating what gravity is. but that does mean its a good idea to jump off a high cliff without parachute. More correctly salt does cause high blood pressure in those that are salt sensitive, AND are not getting enough Potassium in their diet.

 

You'd lose that bet.

SEE http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/thick-melt.html

I am not saying the planet will die. But "stronger storms, longer droughts, more flooding, rising sea levels (as much as 20 ft)". Essentially, we are all in for some mass deaths because of it. That is such a bunch of bull. And this thread proves it.

 

And that part about food crops, we have discussed previously that plants grow better with more CO2 and more heat. So I am not worried.

 

Not 400 parts per million. I mean that is vastly so much more than 300 parts per million.

 

AND are not getting enough Potassium in their diet.

 

That might have more to do with it than the salt.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

2/3 of Evangelical Christians do not believe in Global Warming because they think that only God controls the climate. I estimate that about 4/5 of USA LDS don't believe in Global Warming.

Talk about a straw man. No one I have ever heard talk about it has said this. Further more, I am not Evangelical and I would not hold this view if I did. The problem is there is not sufficient evidence that man is causing warming. 2nd if there was evidence it only points to be a very minor amount of influence. IE, nothing to be worried about. You cannot even quantify what is "too much CO2".

 

How would you prove that?

[ERayR]

 

 

 

You are free to believe what ever you want, that is what the oil companies want you to believe.  

 

 

 

but it was not a scientific consensus. The scientific consensus has been wrong in the past, but I can create a huge list of number of times the general public has been wrong 

 

The evil greedy oil companies have an elaborate vile arm twisting coverup.  They are the perennial scapegoat.  Next you will drag out the evil, greedy coal companies.

 

Oh by the way have you parked your car and turned off your utilities?

[TheSkepticChristian]

The evil greedy oil companies have an elaborate vile arm twisting coverup.  

 

your friends are saying that climate scientists just want grant money and that GW is a hoax. 

You said that GW is just political, I think it is science and a moral issue. 

 

The problem is there is not sufficient evidence that man is causing warming. 2nd if there was evidence it only points to be a very minor amount of influence. IE, nothing to be worried about. You cannot even quantify what is "too much CO2".

 

Evidence is found in the scientific papers. Just because you say there is no evidence doesn't make it true. The climate researchers that use expensive lab equipment have found a lot of evidence. 

 

I am not saying the planet will die. But "stronger storms, longer droughts, more flooding, rising sea levels (as much as 20 ft)".

 

but what if it is true? Can't you allow a small possibility? Please don't ignore the scientific researchers.   

 

 Essentially, we are all in for some mass deaths because of it. That is such a bunch of bull. And this thread proves it.

 

The rich don't have to worry, it is the poor from undeveloped countries that should worry the most 

 

If GW theory is false = Nothing happens 

If GW theory is true =  Serious consequences 

Edited April 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

Please remember 

 

If GW theory is false = Nothing happens, but new technology will be nice.  

If GW theory is true =  Serious consequences  

 

Even if GW theory is false, it doesn't matter because the church supports environmental stewardship 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/environmental-stewardship-conservation

Edited April 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Calm]

"If GW theory is false = Nothing happens, but new technology will be nice. "

Unless the push for new tech comes at a high enough price that it cause economic hardships, including developing countries.

[ERayR]

your friends are saying that climate scientists just want grant money and that GW is a hoax. 

You said that GW is just political, I think it is science and a moral issue. 

 

 

Evidence is found in the scientific papers. Just because you say there is no evidence doesn't make it true. The climate researchers that use expensive lab equipment have found a lot of evidence. 

 

 

but what if it is true? Can't you allow a small possibility? Please don't ignore the scientific researchers.   

 

 

The rich don't have to worry, it is the poor from undeveloped countries that should worry the most 

 

If GW theory is false = Nothing happens 

If GW theory is true =  Serious consequences 

 

1) Okay but how does that make the oil companies greedy and evil.  They produce products to improve mine and your comfort and living.  Your GW friends produce nothing.

 

2) The problem is those scientific paper contain an awful lot of unproven assumptions that cast doubt on their conclusions.  All scientific papers are not created equal.

 

3) Believe me the papers have not been ignored.  Now a request for you.  Please allow for the possibility that some of us have a brain and cognitive ability.

 

4) It has always been so.  The rich always have the advantage. but that is not a valid reason for you to try to incite class hatred and warfare.

 

5) If GW theory is false = Nothing happens.  Except those getting rich off this get richer on the backs of the poor.  See it works better this way.

    If GW theory is true =  Serious consequences  Not as serious as the GW "chicken littles" would have you believe.

[ERayR]

Even if GW theory is false, it doesn't matter because the church supports environmental stewardship 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/environmental-stewardship-conservation

 

Except the GW hoaxers get a fortune that could be used to do some real good.

[TheSkepticChristian]

While the chart might be for Antartica only.  The solar orbits which caused the peaks and valleys in Antartica would cause a world-wide effect, as Antartica does not orbit independent of the rest of the globe.  Follow the trend on that chart.  Which way is the temperature trending?  Clearly it has a strong trend downward, despite the skyrocketing C02.

 

Even if true, it is Antartica. A warming requires the heat from the sun and CO2, not CO2 alone. 

For example, Super-volcano eruptions cause global cooling, and the CO2 levels become irrelevant when that happens. 

 

but today Antartica is not getting colder, it is being affected by global warming.

[TheSkepticChristian]

1) Okay but how does that make the oil companies greedy and evil.  They produce products to improve mine and your comfort and living.  Your GW friends produce nothing. works better this way.

 

My GW friends look at the evidence. Oil companies remind me of the tobacco industries, they used to fund the cancer deniers. 

 

2) The problem is those scientific paper contain an awful lot of unproven assumptions that cast doubt on their conclusions.  

 

How do you know? 

 

 

All scientific papers are not created equal.

 

I agree, but nothing is created equal. Peer-review is not perfect, but it is the best system humans have invented for uncovering and correcting errors.   A paper gets stronger when it's theory survives for decades, GW has survived for more than a century.

 

Some say climate science’s first “Galileo moment” came in 1896, when Swedish scientists Svante Arrhenius, after years of laborious hand calculations, predicted eventual global warming due to CO2 emissions. 

 

3) Believe me the papers have not been ignored.  Now a request for you.  

 

 Have you read them? are internet blogs and tweets better than scientific papers? 

You do not ignore the papers that pogi presents, but you dismiss the papers that I present. 

 

4) It has always been so.  The rich always have the advantage. but that is not a valid reason for you to try to incite class hatred and warfare.

 

I respect the rich people that actually care about the poor

 

    If GW theory is true =  Serious consequences  Not as serious as the GW "chicken littles" would have you believe.

 

How do you know? 

 

Except the GW hoaxers get a fortune that could be used to do some real good.

 

Are you saying that climate scientists are hoaxers? How do you know? 

 

Unless the push for new tech comes at a high enough price that it cause economic hardships, including developing countries.

 

1. If GW is real, consequences will be far more expensive.

2. If nothing happens, new tech will still help humanity. I think interior checkpoints,  pointless wars, and a lot of more unnecessary stuff is more expensive. 

3. or If nothing happens, and if I am wrong about #2 we still need to support environmental stewardship.

 

Therefore, there is no need to be mad about AGW theory. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

Except the GW hoaxers get a fortune that could be used to do some real good.

 

Are you saying that the climate researchers are hoaxers? Who told you that? guys funded by oil companies? 

 

Remember, Climate researchers use sophisticated methods, advance math, and expensive lab equipment to study the climate. 

A google search is not a scientific research. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[The Nehor]

The debate is pointless. Even if we could end the debate there is no political will to do anything about it in this and most other countries on earth. People are fighting over the right to say "I told you so" from the Spirit World when they watch their grandchildren dying because we were all oblivious jerks.

 

I would suggest instead going outside and enjoying the weather before it murders us all.

[bcuzbcuz]

The debate is pointless. Even if we could end the debate there is no political will to do anything about it in this and most other countries on earth. People are fighting over the right to say "I told you so" from the Spirit World when they watch their grandchildren dying because we were all oblivious jerks.

 

I would suggest instead going outside and enjoying the weather before it murders us all.

More than 80% of the scientific community agree that global warming is actually occuring. Probably 80% of those who post here take exactly the opposite stance. Most who post here are products of the American education system. Is there a link?

[longview]

More than 80% of the scientific community agree that global warming is actually occuring. Probably 80% of those who post here take exactly the opposite stance. Most who post here are products of the American education system. Is there a link?

It is strange that you would condemn the education system when it is actually on YOUR side.  There is increasing concern that collectivists have pretty much taken control of the system and heavily indoctrinating our helpless children on various topics, such as sexual immorality, demonizing the founders of this nation, AND the global warming fake hysteria.  I am thankful that many people care enough to question the stampede being orchestrated by the social engineers who want more power for the state in the form of crushing carbon taxes and constricted quality of life for the common people.

[bcuzbcuz]

It is strange that you would condemn the education system when it is actually on YOUR side.  There is increasing concern that collectivists have pretty much taken control of the system and heavily indoctrinating our helpless children on various topics, such as sexual immorality, demonizing the founders of this nation, AND the global warming fake hysteria.  I am thankful that many people care enough to question the stampede being orchestrated by the social engineers who want more power for the state in the form of crushing carbon taxes and constricted quality of life for the common people.

Sorry, group panic and conspiracy theories aren't in my world view. Poor educational standards, especially in matters of science, such as those espoused by many states in the US are, however, well within the scope of my post. Sexual morality has nothing to do with education, that honour belongs to religion (and tv and internet).

Social engineers?? Hogswaller!

[TheSkepticChristian]

More than 80% of the scientific community agree that global warming is actually occuring. Probably 80% of those who post here take exactly the opposite stance. Most who post here are products of the American education system. Is there a link?

 

and 97% of the climate researchers agree, here are some papers that prove the 97%

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/27/12107.full.pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2009EO270010/pdf

http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_final.pdf

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/306/5702/1686.full?paged=60

 

but ERayR will say that the papers are full of assumptions and it is just an interpretation 

[pogi]

More than 80% of the scientific community agree that global warming is actually occuring. Probably 80% of those who post here take exactly the opposite stance. Most who post here are products of the American education system. Is there a link?

 

I don't think the American education system is the link for many of us questioning global warming, I think we are questioning in spite  of it.  Being a relatively recent graduate, I certainly had my fair share of indoctrination in the school system.  I would also suspect that several of the posters here were out of the school system before the global warming bandwagon hit the school system.  It simply was not of serious social concern until fairly recently when politicians got involved and began twisting the data and presenting it in dishonest ways to get the public on board. 

 

Personally, I think that Gore and others have really screwed it up for many republicans who might have otherwise been convinced of the data when presented honestly.  I  personally am not convinced that the trajectory of climate change is as dire as predicted.  And this is coming from an environmentally conscious, green-leaning Independent voter. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by pogi

[The Nehor]

I don't think the American education system is the link for many of us questioning global warming, I think we are questioning in spite  of it.  Being a relatively recent graduate, I certainly had my fair share of indoctrination in the school system.  I would also suspect that several of the posters here were out of the school system before the global warming bandwagon hit the school system.  It simply was not of serious social concern until fairly recently when politicians got involved and began twisting the data and presenting it in dishonest ways to get the public on board.

No the link for questioning global warming is a different form of indoctrination. Bad radio shows, bad journalism, that sort of one thing.

[pogi]

No the link for questioning global warming is a different form of indoctrination. Bad radio shows, bad journalism, that sort of one thing.

 

I think we get it from both sides honestly. I personally try to avoid the extremes on either side. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by pogi