Learning About Polygamy: "it's Like Learning You Have Cancer."

[why me]

I think it can be worse for a few people, there I said it, come hunt me down and shoot me. Because that's what I've said needs to happen. It may be because I've chosen to stay in and be silent that I'm struggling so much. Maybe if I'd just cut myself from all things Mormon I could find a whole new set of friends. But as it stands I'm the loneliest I've ever been. It's a sick thought and I'm so sorry to have even said it, but it's true for me. I seriously wish sometimes I'd get a disease and leave this earth because I'm hurting family, namely my husband. He's trying to act like the church isn't that important but sometimes I see how I've hurt him. I keep thinking how much better he'd be if he found another wife, but that can't happen unless I'm dead or I divorce him. Which would be the more devastating to him? I listened to an old podcast with Scott Gordon and John Dehlin where they discuss these issues at the UVU campus. John brings up that it's harder on people to stay and be silent then those that leave it and are open, he had statistics. Well that explains my situation to a tee. So I wonder if the church would like me to leave, but they don't dare say it.

 

It seems to me that you go up and down with the church. And it doesn't help if you live in utah. I also think that you are rather hard on yourself in the way you posted the above. The church does not want you to leave. Why would it? You seem to be a good person and no matter where you land, you will remain good. You have a good heart...a heart that seems a little troubled now but is only because your heart is good. My humble advice would be to relax. It really doesn't matter if you believe this or that about the lds church. What matters is that you are still a human being. It is also good to put the church in simple terms: either the book of mormon is what it claims to be or joseph wrote it. The rest is fluff. If he wrote it, I have no idea how he managed it. Where did he buy the paper and pens etc. And where did he do the research? And then we have the witnesses. 11 people lying about it and affirming what they saw on their deathbeds. I doubt that a lie could succeed in such a way.

 

And why write the book at all. Much better to start a church without it. Less problems. The book itself certainly brought Joseph Smith misery. So, did he write it or is it what it claims to be? Such is the simple question.

 

Also, the internet is a terrible place when it comes to the church and discussion boards are really very little help at times. For me, the best mediciene is to see mormons upfront when they are at church or in meetings. Or when they are doing ward activities. I see a sense of community and joy. On this board, I see conflict and misery among the members but which is true and which is false when it comes to the lds church? Can one see god at work among the members when they attend church and live their lives each day?

Edited February 1, 2015 by why me

[Uncle Dale]

...I think Stowell died a member;

but I'm not sure about his kids. Were those daughters eventually

sealed to Joseph?

UD

 

 

A fellow who presented a paper at an MHA meeting held in Ogden

some years back hinted at the conclusion that Martha Brotherton

had lied about Brigham Young's purported seduction of her, in an

attempt to add Martha to his colection of plural wives at Nauvoo.

He based his reporting upon articles published in The Wasp, etc.

 

In the Q&A session following delivery of the paper somebody asked

if it wasn't true that Brigham had Martha posthumously sealed to him

(by the proxy of one of her sisters, in the Salt Lake Temple)?

 

Nobody seemed to be able to determine whether Martha thus ended

up in the CK, along with Brigham Young. Mention was made of a need

to "consult the original TIB," or something along those lines.

 

If one were to "consult the original TIB," would that clear up the question

of the Stowell daughters possibly being sealed to Joseph Smith after

his 1844 death? -- Or, at least tell us to whom those ladies were sealed?

 

UD

[Calm]

If other wives are currently listed in the Temple Ordinance database (don't know its current name), I don't see any reason one needs to consult the original instead of going off current information. It should list when the work was done as well as if it was done at all.

[Uncle Dale]

If other wives are currently listed in the Temple Ordinance database (don't know its current name), I don't see any reason one needs to consult the original instead of going off current information. It should list when the work was done as well as if it was done at all.

 

I don't know enough about such matters to even make a

reasonable guess -- but were some names on the original

sheets (before being transferred to paper index cards)

crossed out, and thus left off whatever computerized

database is now kept in storage?

 

I ran across this problem in trying to track down an ancestor's

patriarchal blessing. Although we had the document from 1852,

it could not be confirmed as authentic, because Peter Broadhurst's

name had been crossed out in the original blessings record.

 

???

 

UD

[Calm]

Some might have been left off.

 

The Stowell family's pedigree and info can be found in familysearch, but I haven't figured out how to find out if temple work has been done.   Barely signed up a couple of months ago right before my life got turned upside down. It is possible I would need to link them into my family tree claiming them as ancestors in order to have access.  That I won't do though.

Edited February 1, 2015 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

That's an interesting question. Some observer living down along the

Susquehanna mentioned Joseph's alleged intimate relationship

with the daughters of Josiah Stowell. I think Stowell died a member;

but I'm not sure about his kids. Were those daughters eventually

sealed to Joseph?

Years ago an intelligent Mormon shared with me his opinion

that Eliza Snow-Smith had taken over Emma's role as first

wife and Elect Lady, after Emma had tried to murder Joseph.

Brigham Young professed in a public address that he had

witnesses right there in the audience who could confirm that

Emma had unsuccessfully attempted to poison her husband

during his last months at Nauvoo -- wouldn't such an act

have resulted in her losing her first wife's privileges (of not

consenting to some of those later plural marriages)?

UD

Sounds like a soap opera. Info like this that shook me to the core.

[Uncle Dale]

Sounds like a soap opera. Info like this that shook me to the core.

 

I sadly must admit that Brigham was probably right. I spoke with Valeen

years ago and she was prone to soft-pedal the Emma poisoning stories.

Maybe Brigham was exaggerating for effect -- maybe he was trying to

pre-empt David Hyrum's claims to LDS royalty -- maybe this; maybe that.

 

So, I don't think Brigham would have told us Emma was the Eklektē Kyria

of the latter days. No -- Eliza really does sound like a better candidate.

 

If the stories about Fannie are true (and Saints more worthy than I have

professed them without criticism from The Brethren), then the Stowell

ladies would hardly present a different case -- What God has joined

together, let no nay-sayer attempt to put asunder, etc. etc.

 

It's my heritage. And, in some ways at least, it's a pretty darn good heritage.

Soap opera or not, I cannot let it shake me. -- Are Jews shaken because Moses

secretly slew an Egyptian (and hid the incriminating evidence)? Or, are they

shaken because David sent Bathsheba's lawful husband off to a certain death?

As my wife tells me -- "Dale, when your heritage goes back a thousand generations,

as does that of my people, you'll not complain about a murder here, a rape there."

 

Perhaps she's right. Had it not been for those problematic ancestors (and their

strange, mixed-up religions) I myself would never have been born.

 

Oh well, ...

 

UD

[Tacenda]

I sadly must admit that Brigham was probably right. I spoke with Valeen

years ago and she was prone to soft-pedal the Emma poisoning stories.

Maybe Brigham was exaggerating for effect -- maybe he was trying to

pre-empt David Hyrum's claims to LDS royalty -- maybe this; maybe that.

So, I don't think Brigham would have told us Emma was the Eklektē Kyria

of the latter days. No -- Eliza really does sound like a better candidate.

If the stories about Fannie are true (and Saints more worthy than I have

professed them without criticism from The Brethren), then the Stowell

ladies would hardly present a different case -- What God has joined

together, let no nay-sayer attempt to put asunder, etc. etc.

It's my heritage. And, in some ways at least, it's a pretty darn good heritage.

Soap opera or not, I cannot let it shake me. -- Are Jews shaken because Moses

secretly slew an Egyptian (and hid the incriminating evidence)? Or, are they

shaken because David sent Bathsheba's lawful husband off to a certain death?

As my wife tells me -- "Dale, when your heritage goes back a thousand generations,

as does that of my people, you'll not complain about a murder here, a rape there."

Perhaps she's right. Had it not been for those problematic ancestors (and their

strange, mixed-up religions) I myself would never have been born.

Oh well, ...

UD

UD, I respect you so much for the volume of work in church history, that is still ongoing, of mine and your faiths!! I can't believe I'm conversing with THE Uncle Dale!

All my life I've taken for granted my religion and the people that's faith was so strong, I'm not one of them. But yours was, and once again I'm ashamed, this time for being flippant.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Tacenda

[Uncle Dale]

...All my life I've taken for granted my religion and the people that's faith was so strong, I'm not one of them....

 

 

I suppose that "faith" can be viewed in many ways. One way would be as

optimism -- that, no matter the troubles of today, the Universe is a good

place -- that the good in all things will ultimately triumph.

 

If I were to speak of faith, it would be in those terms -- of an underlying

trust, that may not be expressible in terms of belief. Beliefs change --

the recipients of my trust have mostly changed over the years -- but

the nature of that trust remains constant.

 

I nolonger call myself a Latter Day Saint (though I'll accept the title

from friends and would-be friends) -- and I haven't called myself a

Christian in ages (though I'm most comfortable in the company of

Jesus-followers).

 

What faith remains?

Something different than what I would have told you 60 years ago.

And yet -- very much the same now as then.

 

Uncle Dale

[Tacenda]

Uncle Dale, I heard DBMormon's latest podcast on Mormon Discussions early this morning, sleep troubles, he mentioned Fowler's Stages of Faith. He put the majority of people in the 3 or 4 range, with very few higher, around stage 6. And mentioned that he thought Pres. Uchtdorf would be in the higher range. I'd say what you just described above would put you there also.

Edit to add: I visited Church history sites in Nauvoo and went to the CoC Sunday service in that town, and on the end of the trip we went on the Church of Christ's temple tour. It was so interesting to say the least. Loved the peaceful feeling in both places!

Edited February 2, 2015 by Tacenda

[why me]

Sounds like a soap opera. Info like this that shook me to the core.

We need to remember that Dale is an expert at making what is hypothetical sound like fact. Much is hypothetical illustrations with him. I suppose that if rumor mongering was fact, we would all be in trouble. And this is the problem when one reads church history  We need to distinguish documented facts and data, expert testimony, hypothetical illustrations and analogies of any kind. The first three are important, but the rest are inadequate for getting at the truth. Then, when we do have the documented facts, we need to question the interpretation on offer. There can be more than one interpretation for a fact or for data. This is where questioning and crtiical thinking comes in handy. Dale did not present any evidence at all. Just innuendos.

 

My opinion is simple: maybe you should give podcasts a break and see life anew. Too many people are messing with your head. Also, read the biography of hyrum smith by O'Driscoll. You can pick it up at dessert. Much about polygamy in that book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hyrum-Smith-A-Life-Integrity/dp/1570088578

 

But you can pick it up at dessert. This book was published in 2003 and in it there is joseph's polygamy etc. But who reads books these days outside of reading what grant as to say and the other critics?

Edited February 2, 2015 by why me

[Uncle Dale]

...Loved the peaceful feeling in both places!

 

An historical oddity -- Joseph Smith once drew up plans

for a multitude of temples, positioned west of the courthouse

in Independence.

 

We seldom hear of this, and thus know little about it. But the

single temple so often spoken of by the Church of Christ,

Temple Lot elders may be something of a mistake -- or, at

least an over-simplification.

 

There was once a Cutlerite church a stone's throw from the

Independence Temple Lot. Perhaps it is still there, somewhere.

And the CoC have their temple and their Auditorium; and the Mormons

their Stake Center and Visitors' Center; and there's Joseph III's old

Stone Church; and the fundamentalist RLDS have revamped and

occupied an old building, not far from the Hedrickite church, as well.

 

Viewed from the air, this assemblage of holy shrines may

not exactly duplicate Joseph's 1830s map -- but the outward

resemblance (pure coincidence?) is a notable one.

 

UD

Edited February 2, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[bphaedrus]

.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I assume you just wanted to bump this thread, so I'll play along. We know polygamy will exist in the afterlife because a couple of the current apostles have been sealed to 2 wives. So have 2 of my uncles.

[why me]

One place to learn about polygamy is in seminary. In the student manual it lays the case of polygamy very well and states in a very direct way that joseph was a polygamist. Also, it mentions the conflict with emma over polygamy. The manual also states why it was practiced. It can't get anymore clear than what is in the manual when the students discuss section 132. Here is the section of the manual where it is discussed:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-132-138/section-132-marriage-an-eternal-covenant?lang=eng

 

I have a copy of the student manual from 1981 and it also discusses polygamy. In fact the manual hasn't changed in 40 years.So, is the church hiding its history when it comes to polygamy? No. But maybe some of the membes missed seminary. But whose fault is that? I think that we need to be careful when it comes to what the critics are saying. We shouldn't be too quick to buy into their argument.

 

D&C 132:51–56. What Was Emma Commanded Not to Partake of?

No indication is given here or elsewhere of what the Lord had commanded the Prophet Joseph to offer to his wife, but the context seems to suggest that it was a special test of faith similar to the test of Abraham’s faith when the Lord commanded him to sacrifice Isaac. Beyond that, it is useless to speculate. However, Emma was given additional counsel from the Lord, including commandments to “receive all those that have been given to her husband” (D&C 132:52) to obey the voice of the Lord (see v. 53), to “abide and cleave unto” the Prophet (v. 54), and to forgive him of his trespasses (see v. 56). The Lord also gave her warnings against rejecting these commandments and promises for keeping them.

 

President Wilford Woodruff, who was closely associated with the Prophet Joseph Smith, said: “Emma Smith, the widow of the Prophet, is said to have maintained to her dying moments that her husband had nothing to do with the patriarchal order of marriage, but that it was Brigham Young that got that up. I bear record before God, angels and men that Joseph Smith received that revelation, and I bear record that Emma Smith gave her husband in marriage to several women while he was living, some of whom are to-day living in this city, and some may be present in this congregation, and who, if called upon, would confirm my words. But lo and behold, we hear of publication after publication now-a-days, declaring that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with these things. Joseph Smith himself organized every endowment in our Church and revealed the same to the Church, and he lived to receive every key of the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods from the hands of the men who held them while in the flesh, and who hold them in eternity.” (In Journal of Discourses, 23:131.)

 

The above is just one part that is in that section of the manual. It seems that the manual is very clear about emma's reaction. More is in the manual.

Edited February 11, 2015 by why me

[Uncle Dale]

 

...

Also, it mentions the conflict with emma over polygamy.

...

 

Any mention of Eliza Snow-Smith-Young, and her place in this epic?

I assume that she is now with Brigham, organizing worlds and populating

them with their spirit-children.

 

Then again, perhaps she is seated at the head of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s

dinner table, in the place Emma might have once coveted -- and, with

the holder of the keys to the seventh dispensation, there mingling with

gods and planning for her brethren.

 

Enquiring minds wish to know...

 

UD

[why me]

Any mention of Eliza Snow-Smith-Young, and her place in this epic?

I assume that she is now with Brigham, organizing worlds and populating

them with their spirit-children.

 

Then again, perhaps she is seated at the head of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s

dinner table, in the place Emma might have once coveted -- and, with

the holder of the keys to the seventh dispensation, there mingling with

gods and planning for her brethren.

 

Enquiring minds wish to know...

 

UD

Ah, you see dale, you kinda made an illogical leap. The d and c section is based on what the scripture says and joseph's place in it. So, not too dramatic historical details need to be in the student manual. It is based on the interpretation of the scripture and why it was practiced and the main participants in the episode: emma and joseph. However, I am sure that Eliza is mentioned in scholarly history interpretations of lds history or in biographies by historians and scholars of Young. Unless of course this section was addressed to Young.

Edited February 12, 2015 by why me

[JLHPROF]

Any mention of Eliza Snow-Smith-Young, and her place in this epic?

I assume that she is now with Brigham, organizing worlds and populating

them with their spirit-children.

 

Then again, perhaps she is seated at the head of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s

dinner table, in the place Emma might have once coveted -- and, with

the holder of the keys to the seventh dispensation, there mingling with

gods and planning for her brethren.

 

Enquiring minds wish to know...

 

UD

 

Eliza would be populating worlds with Joseph, not Brigham.  And I would expect Emma to be with them, along with all his other eternal companions (of which there may be hundreds at this point).

[Uncle Dale]

Eliza would be populating worlds with Joseph, not Brigham.  And I would expect Emma to be with them, along with all his other eternal companions (of which there may be hundreds at this point).

 

My elderly second-grade teacher had even more elderly sister (cousin?)

who, it was said, was sealed to Joseph Smith, Jr., in the Idaho Falls Temple.

If anybody knows the Stevenson family of that place, perhaps they can

confirm that single ladies were being married to the long-deceased Smith

as late as 1950, at least.

 

If Eliza was only sealed to Brigham for "time" and not for CK entrance, then

I suppose it must have been Joseph who conducted her through the veil.

What her rank is in the seating order at his supper table, nobody seems

prepared to tell us -- but it must be fairly high on the list of wives' names.

 

After all, Eliza did not attempt to murder Joseph at Nauvoo -- and Brigham

never singled her out, as the world's worst liar.

 

 

What Eliza might have been able to tell us (had she been so inclined)

was who gave the more valued wedding anniversary presents (I'd guess

Joseph) and who was the better kisser (I'd guess Brigham).

 

UD

[ERayR]

Any mention of Eliza Snow-Smith-Young, and her place in this epic?

I assume that she is now with Brigham, organizing worlds and populating

them with their spirit-children.

 

Then again, perhaps she is seated at the head of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s

dinner table, in the place Emma might have once coveted -- and, with

the holder of the keys to the seventh dispensation, there mingling with

gods and planning for her brethren.

 

Enquiring minds wish to know...

 

UD

 

Or perhaps she is sitting with Joseph AND Emma.  All seated in their proper positions.

[Uncle Dale]

Or perhaps she is sitting with Joseph AND Emma.  All seated in their proper positions.

 

 

Imaginary conversation at said dinner table:

 

Eliza: "So, Sister Emma, do you keep track of any of your earthly offspring?"

 

Emma: "No, not so much any more. Most of them joined that apostate

Reorganized Church and have ended up in Perdition or Outer Darkness.

I've lost track of their kids..."

 

Mother Lucy: "Oh, Emma -- certainly you stay in touch with Young Joseph!

Why, he and Major Bidamon used to pick me wild flowers and bring me tea,

before I passed away at Nauvoo..."

 

Joseph: "There will be no such talk at this table -- henceforth and forever! And,

Emma, if you do not wish to end up in the Lake of Fire, along with that apostate

son of ours, you'll never mention the name of Joseph Smith III ever again!"

 

Eliza: "Er... Uh... Oh! I simply must tell you about the Celestial Mall that

Neiman Marcus just opened up on Kolob -- why they have the prettiest

calicoes and crinolines..."

 

(fade to black)

 

UD

Edited February 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[ERayR]

Imaginary conversation at said dinner table:

 

Eliza: "So, Sister Emma, do you keep track of any of your earthly offspring?"

 

Emma: "No, not so much any more. Most of them joined that apostate

Reorganized Church and have ended up in Perdition or Outer Darkness.

I've lost track of their kids..."

 

Mother Lucy: "Oh, Emma -- certainly you stay in touch with Young Joseph!

Why, he and Major Bidamon used to pick me wild flowers and bring me tea,

before I passed away at Nauvoo..."

 

Joseph: "There will be no such talk at this table -- henceforth and forever! And,

Emma, if you do not wish to end up in the Lake of Fire, along with that apostate

son of ours, you'll never mention the name of Joseph Smith III ever again!"

 

Eliza: "Er... Uh... Oh! I simply must tell you about the Celestial Mall that

Neiman Marcus just opened up on Kolob -- why they have the prettiest

calicoes and crinolines..."

 

(fade to black)

 

UD

 

The operative word in your post being "imaginary".

[Uncle Dale]

The operative word in your post being "imaginary".

 

The next day (assuming there are days and nights in the CK)

 

Joseph: "OK! OK! I've given in to your nagging! Young Joseph has a

one-time pass up from the telestial kingdom. I moved him out of the

lake of fire -- that sulfur smell was just too much. Any way, he's here 

with his wives, for dinner."

 

Chatter among the dinner guests: "Did he say wives?" "Impossible!"

"Young Joseph was the monogamy champion, wasn't he?" "Maybe

Porter Rockwell really did blood atone him..." "When did he get

those extra sealings, anyway?" ...

 

Young Joseph: "Hello Ma, Hello, Pa. Good to see you after all these

centuries. Say, that's a nice table you have laid out there!"

 

Emma: "Please introduce the ladies with you, son."

 

Young Joseph: "Well, this is Emmeline; and here's Bertha; and, last

but not least, my Ada..."

 

Eliza: "But... but..."

 

Young Joseph: "Oh, we know what you're all thinking. But no. The marriages

were serial ones -- not concurrent..."

 

Mother Lucy: "And you once said you'd forever be a bachelor! Silly boy!"

 

Joseph: "Well, then -- that's enough talk about marriages and sealings. That's

all I ever hear around this dining room any more. Let's resume our discussion

of why the Whig Party was bad for the Land of Promise..."

 

(fade to black)

 

UD

[JLHPROF]

My elderly second-grade teacher had even more elderly sister (cousin?)

who, it was said, was sealed to Joseph Smith, Jr., in the Idaho Falls Temple.

If anybody knows the Stevenson family of that place, perhaps they can

confirm that single ladies were being married to the long-deceased Smith

as late as 1950, at least.

 

Joseph had many women sealed to him after his death - including Josephine Bonaparte, Empress Matilda of Germany, and Madame Victor Hugo...

 

 

If Eliza was only sealed to Brigham for "time" and not for CK entrance, then

I suppose it must have been Joseph who conducted her through the veil.

What her rank is in the seating order at his supper table, nobody seems

prepared to tell us -- but it must be fairly high on the list of wives' names.

 

 

 

Well, one urban legend (with virtually no corroborating information) concerns this Necklace  with photographs in the Church archives and the real thing (Box 3 Item 11) probably at BYU.  It says that Joseph gave it to Emma and the hieroglyph translation names her a member of the First Presidency of the Women of the Universe and official recorder.

 

However, since the necklace isn't available for review of the hieroglyphs who knows...but imagine if that title was actually real!

Edited February 12, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

However, since the necklace isn't available for review of the hieroglyphs who knows...but imagine if that title was actually real!

 

Sounds like a good plot-line for a Christopher Kimball Bigelow "faith-promoting" novel.

 

UD