Struggling To Understand Suffering

[Kenngo1969]

Thinking of all the suffering in the world makes me sympathize with the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven.

I see what you're saying to a certain extent, but, often, in seeking to avoid pain, we also deny ourselves growth.  One may wonder at the case of someone whose plight seems to encompass a great deal of suffering, on the one hand, yet little, if any, growth, on the other hand.  However, we should also remember that the results of the growing one does in mortality often will not be readily apparent until the life after this one.  My $0.02.  I wish you well.

[Calm]

Thinking of all the suffering in the world makes me sympathize with the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven.

According to many, the third is now heavily into causing a good portion of that misery and weren't exactly hesitant in moving in that direction when they didn't get their way....if so, I have no sympathy whatsoever because their concern was purely about avoiding it themselves, not for anyone else if their actions speak for their heart.

[Uncle Dale]

Thinking of all the suffering in the world makes me sympathize with the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven.

 

 

Well, there are a good many people on this planet who would conclude

that the "war in heaven" is merely a mythological, symbolic parable...

 

However, if we take John Milton's literal version of that story as something like

"an inspired fiction," then I'm left to wonder why the "dark angels" followed

Satan in the first place. They seem to have known (or at least guessed)

that their rebellion would lead to defeat -- with little more to show for their

effort than a rather miserable period of independence, before the inevitable

unhappy conclusion of the celestial revolt.

 

Milton's story begins with the fallen angels taking stock of their new, infernal

home in exile -- and, with some fortitude they at least attempt to build up

Hades into something like a furnished residence, complete with massy gates.

 

Gates that (somehow or another) would not prevail against the righteous,

sometime or another in the vaguely predicted future.

 

So, the demonized celestials begin by trying to alleviate their own suffering.

 

I'm not sure that I could sympathize with that. Better to repent, hope for some

measure of eventual forgiveness, and face Justice...

 

Then again, I was never much of a romantic. I suppose I would have ended

both Milton's epic and Dante's on page one, respectively.

 

UD

[SteveO]

I have always been under the belief that in some way, every one of us--no matter the circumstance we are born into--will face trials and hardships that in the end, when it is all tallied up, will be equal across the board.  ie, the pain of starvation in a war zone equal to the pain of cancer in the United States...something along those lines.  Any thoughts on this?   

[SteveO]

If not, do you think this may be why "unto much is given, much is required"?  Should we work harder than say, the saints in Latin America and Africa?

Edited December 18, 2014 by SteveO

[ERayR]

Thinking of all the suffering in the world makes me sympathize with the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven.

 

I gave you a rep point on first reading but when I read Calmoriah's post it was like getting a glass of cold water in my face.  It woke me right up..

[The Nehor]

I have always been under the belief that in some way, every one of us--no matter the circumstance we are born into--will face trials and hardships that in the end, when it is all tallied up, will be equal across the board.  ie, the pain of starvation in a war zone equal to the pain of cancer in the United States...something along those lines.  Any thoughts on this?

I do not believe it. Some will suffer much more then me; some will suffer much less.

[Uncle Dale]

I do not believe it. Some will suffer much more then me; some will suffer much less.

I'll share with you a small memory from my years in South Asia.

One of the places I visited was Lumbini, and while there I had an

interesting conversation with a Mahayana monk, who spoke some

broken English.

On the subject of suffering, he reminded me that Prince Siddhartha

was so coddled and spoiled in the royal compound there, that he

never knew suffering .... Until he stepped out of the palace grounds

and saw the great suffering of many of his poor subjects.

The monk told me, "to witness the suffering of others becomes our

own suffering... If we are truly sentient beings. The longer we live

the more accute that empathy becomes, until their suffering and

our own compassion become one in the same."

Wish I could recite that in the original Tibetan -- but the message

stuck with me, through the years.

UD

[The Nehor]

I'll share with you a small memory from my years in South Asia.

One of the places I visited was Lumbini, and while there I had an

interesting conversation with a Mahayana monk, who spoke some

broken English.

On the subject of suffering, he reminded me that Prince Siddhartha

was so coddled and spoiled in the royal compound there, that he

never knew suffering .... Until he stepped out of the palace grounds

and saw the great suffering of many of his poor subjects.

The monk told me, "to witness the suffering of others becomes our

own suffering... If we are truly sentient beings. The longer we live

the more accute that empathy becomes, until their suffering and

our own compassion become one in the same."

Wish I could recite that in the original Tibetan -- but the message

stuck with me, through the years.

UD

While I like the sentiment I do not believe the story. No human can be so coddled and spoiled that they do not suffer at all. Unchecked human desire and ego cannot be satiated by the richest most doting parents. According to LDS theology even agod who could give all and still have much to spare cannot win the affections of many of His children.

[saemo]

While I like the sentiment I do not believe the story. No human can be so coddled and spoiled that they do not suffer at all. Unchecked human desire and ego cannot be satiated by the richest most doting parents. According to LDS theology even agod who could give all and still have much to spare cannot win the affections of many of His children.

It is the foundational story of the Buddha, which, all Buddhists believe. There's even a movie that portrays this story pretty well, with Keanu Reaves as Prince Siddhartha.

[The Nehor]

It is the foundational story of the Buddha, which, all Buddhists believe. There's even a movie that portrays this story pretty well, with Keanu Reaves as Prince Siddhartha.

I know it is. He may have been spoiled and coddled but I do not believe he was removed from all suffering. You cannot pull it off in this world.

[Calm]

I know it is. He may have been spoiled and coddled but I do not believe he was removed from all suffering. You cannot pull it off in this world.

At the very least he must have suffered from boredom on occasion.

It seems highly unlikely in that day and age he never got sick once or stubbed his toe or tripped and bruise something or got bit by an insect.

Edited December 18, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

I know it is. He may have been spoiled and coddled but I do not believe he was removed from all suffering. You cannot pull it off in this world.

 

 

In 6th century BC Nepal, I don't see that it would have been impossible that a father, who was royalty, could pull it off.

 

The story doesn't have to be taken literally. It can be seen as a sacred myth, that is conveying an important truth to the followers of the Buddha. In the story of the Buddha, it indicates the beginning of his awakening from a deep sleep, the first towards enlightenment.

Edited December 18, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

No runny nose ever on the kid? No 'I've played with all these toys, seen all these entertainments, tasted all this food....I'm bored'?

Just don't see it.

[The Nehor]

In 6th century BC Nepal, I don't see that it would have been impossible that a father, who was royalty, could pull it off.

 

The story doesn't have to be taken literally. It can be seen as a sacred myth, that is conveying an important truth to the followers of the Buddha. In the story of the Buddha, it indicates the beginning of his awakening from a deep sleep, the first towards enlightenment.

I see it as impossible. Spoiled and coddled children suffer the most due to insane expectations no one can meet.

As a mythical story it makes some sense. In some ways it is analogous to the fruit of knowledge of good and evil as the Buddha falls from a protected state into the lone and dreary world. Of course the story goes the other way when the path of redemption/escape is located.

[saemo]

I see it as impossible. Spoiled and coddled children suffer the most due to insane expectations no one can meet.

As a mythical story it makes some sense. In some ways it is analogous to the fruit of knowledge of good and evil as the Buddha falls from a protected state into the lone and dreary world. Of course the story goes the other way when the path of redemption/escape is located.

Exactly! 

 

I studied for a while both Hinduism and Buddhism, and practiced somewhat in a Western/New Age fashion. The similarities to Christianity are striking, but also, have stark differences.

[saemo]

No runny nose ever on the kid? No 'I've played with all these toys, seen all these entertainments, tasted all this food....I'm bored'?

Just don't see it.

It was the suffering of others that he was unaware. Pointedly, old age, disease and death. The story goes, at age 29 he left his childhood sanctuary and saw for the first time, an old man, a person with disease who was in pain and suffering, a corpse and then a man who devoted himself to finding the cause of human suffering. (This event is called the Four Sights.) It was then that the Prince realized the condition of his own life, because aging, disease, pain, suffering and death are conditions of human existence. The fourth site, of the ascetic, inspired the Prince to leave behind his sheltered life of luxury and become an ascetic.

 

I think it would be possible to shield someone from old people, diseased people and death.

Edited December 18, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

But if he knew what illness was from being ill himself or pain from injuring himself, then how would that not be as significant as seeing someone else suffer?

[saemo]

But if he knew what illness was from being ill himself or pain from injuring himself, then how would that not be as significant as seeing someone else suffer?

Difference of degree maybe? A stubbed toe is not the same as chronic pain and a runny nose is not the same as a debilitating disease? Both are short lived and not really suffering. Only us modern people of the west would think they are.

 

This was a time when pain and suffering had no relief of modern medications and remedies. Serious illness most usually meant death was near. Even a runny nose could be the harbinger of death from flu, pneumonia or other illness. Chronic pain had no relief but herbal remedies that may have some effect but would not relieve as we know today with narcotics. All the issues that come with aging, such as arthritis, dental problems, loss of eyesight and hearing, etc….all just happened with nothing to do about it but suffer through. In the caste system of the time and era, lower castes than the Prince would be suffering in the street with no homes or no one caring for them. (In modern times, this occurs still in India, where lower castes can die in the street with no one paying attention or caring. That was the first ministry of Mother Theresa, to bring the dying off the streets to a sheltered place with care, for the short time remaining of their lives.)

 

Honestly, I think most of the western world is shielded like Prince Siddharta from the suffering of humanity. This was not so for anyone, even 200 years ago.

Edited December 19, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

"Only us modern people of the west would think they are."

Because we are spoiled and coddled.

[saemo]

"Only us modern people of the west would think they are."

Because we are spoiled and coddled.

Buddha would say, because we are asleep as he was asleep.

[Uncle Dale]

No runny nose ever on the kid? No 'I've played with all these toys, seen all these entertainments, tasted all this food....I'm bored'?

Just don't see it.

 

 

There is no way I can go back in time and renew my off-handed conversation

with that fellow. And, even if I could somehow put myself back in Lumbini, that

day, I would not know how to ask the "proper" questions, in order to get any

useful answers.

 

I have encountered fundamentalist Christians who profess that Jesus the son

of Mary was perfect -- could absolutely do no wrong -- did not suffer, ever,

(prior to the atonement) as a consequence of anything he said or did as a child.

I'm fairly sure that those folks would tell me that Jesus never had a runny nose

and never woke his mother up in the middle of the night with hunger cries...

 

Oh well... human perfection is a topic I'll leave for more worthy minds to

instruct us -- if any such counsel is even possible.

 

As I see it, the story was meant to convey the fact that the young prince

really did not comprehend the situtuation of human beings in this world,

until he witnessed terrible suffering -- that such a realization was the

beginning of a spiritual progression in his own understanding (whether

or not he ever had a runny nose as a kid).

 

I've heard folks tell me that such spiritual progression can make the 

truly humble more "Christ-like." If that means eventually taking the sins

of the world upon the shoulders of each and every one of us, then

such a concept would probably echo what the guy in Nepal was trying

to tell me -- that all the suffering that ever was, is, and will be, amounts

of an infinite quantity, and that an "ultimate realization" somehow manages

to transcend that incalculable suffering -- through personal responsibility --

that is, by our "response" to what we encounter.

 

Don't ask me to explain it. The philosophy was more than a little

foreign to my way of thinking, when I first heard it -- and still is.

 

UD