"truth" That Doesn't Matter

[JLHPROF]

I am not convinced that there is a difference between an intelligence and a spirit. perhaps someone can correct me, but I an not aware of any scripture that states we were born as spirits or that we became spirits at some point. I think the point is that we are intelligences filled with light and truth and that we have always been so. We were spirits that were always embodied with light and truth. 

 

The scriptures teach that ALL things were created spiritually before they were created physically.  Why would we be any different?

 

Moses 3

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

 

Compare that to:

D&C 93:29  Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 

Seems pretty clear to me that intelligences are NOT created, but spirit children ARE.

Edited December 10, 2014 by JLHPROF

[omni]

God commanded me to sever an engagement and break two hearts for some good I still do not fully understand. Should I shout that from the rooftops?

I was using a little hyperbole with the "shouting from the rooftops" line - that being said, if your decisions were divinely inspired you should in no way be embarrassed or uncomfortable with sharing the reason for breaking your engagements.

I

once told God I needed money for temple clothes as I had just been called as a temple worker. The next day I was given a winning $200 scratch-off lottery ticket by my boss and paid for them. Should I share that story in sacrament meeting?

Interesting…God may have very well provided you the winning lottery ticket to pay for your temple clothing, but I wonder how many of the brethren would agree with that explanation.

Without context some stories are deceiving even if the facts are reported correctly. I am perfectly okay with everyone knowing the story of Joseph Smith's polygamy IF they sit down and do some serious studying of it and learn the facts surrounding it. Most will not. They want a sound byte or a quick five minute explanation. This is the same reason schools do not teach quantum physics in a side lecture in one day. Students are more likely to get the wrong idea and reach the wrong conclusions if they do not understand the underlying math and concepts.

So.....shout it from the housetops but be prepared to shout for a long time as you give as much of the full story as we have.

The church should have been giving context to these stories a long time ago rather than waiting 150 years until their hand was forced with the internet. I don't see a lot of context given in a number of bizarre Biblical stories, yet there they are right in our holiest scripture.

Edited December 10, 2014 by omni

[The Nehor]

I was using a little hyperbole with the "shouting from the rooftops" line - that being said, if your decisions were divinely inspired you should in no way be embarrassed or uncomfortable with sharing the reason for breaking your engagements.  

 

And even though I am not embarrassed or uncomfortable if someone not close to me had asked about it the answer would have involved "damn", "none of your", and "business".

Interesting…God may have very well provided you the winning lottery ticket to pay for your temple clothing, but I wonder how many members of the brethren would agree that explanation.

I don't really care. The point was that I would not share that story in a sacrament meeting talk. While most would laugh someone might get the idea that one should acquire lottery tickets to see if God wants to bless them with money. I have never bought a lottery ticket and never plan to so I would not want anyone to get that idea. In fact I suspect God used that method to bless me because I got the humor of the whole thing and it amused me at the time and still amuses me now. It is not fit "for the housetops".

The church should have been giving context to these stories a long time ago rather than waiting 150 years until their hand was forced with the internet.  I don't see a lot of context given in a number of bizarre Biblical stories, yet there they are right in our holiest scripture.

People in the church have been doing it for years. Some sought it out. Others did not. Agency is a pain sometimes huh?

[Freedom]

The scriptures teach that ALL things were created spiritually before they were created physically.  Why would we be any different?

 

Compare that to:

 

Seems pretty clear to me that intelligences are NOT created, but spirit children ARE.

He did indeed create the children of men, but if he did create us (it does not refer to our spirits) then we did not exist as intelligence but were created at some point. I think we can distinguish between a spiritual creation and being created as a spirit. We were organized. Our eternal potential was planned out. I think we make the assumption that the spiritual creation and the creation of spirits is the same thing. I am not convinced. I look at the spiritual creation of all things as the planning stage for the creation of the temporal place we now live in. We were involved in the spiritual creation or planning stage. 

[JLHPROF]

He did indeed create the children of men, but if he did create us (it does not refer to our spirits) then we did not exist as intelligence but were created at some point. I think we can distinguish between a spiritual creation and being created as a spirit. We were organized. Our eternal potential was planned out. I think we make the assumption that the spiritual creation and the creation of spirits is the same thing. I am not convinced. I look at the spiritual creation of all things as the planning stage for the creation of the temporal place we now live in. We were involved in the spiritual creation or planning stage. 

 

You have that right, but that is NOT what the scriptures quoted tell us.

[stemelbow]

Elder Packer was clearly instructing the CES educators not to teach history that was non-faith promoting. So why does the method JS used to translate the plates or the fact that he married other men's wives and teenage girls fall into the category of not being faith promoting?

This isn't the airing of dirty laundry, these things were commanded by God. Shouldn't we instead be shouting these truths from the roof tops?

Maybe not shouting from the rooftops, but at least acknowledging that these things pertained to faith for those who have since left this world. The main point of teaching and using history is for us to learn from those who came before. If we fail to tell the stories of the past as they happened, we fail to trust God's grand interactions with those who came before.

My sneaking suspicion has been, at various times in my life, that the correlated material that we have to learn from is evidence that the regular member is not to be trusted--that the pearls before swine idea describes the average member as the swine.

[The Nehor]

My sneaking suspicion has been, at various times in my life, that the correlated material that we have to learn from is evidence that the regular member is not to be trusted--that the pearls before swine idea describes the average member as the swine.

Why is it just a suspicion? Our scriptures talk all the time about things being held back from us. Joseph Smith outright said that the reason we do not have more of the mysteries of God revealed to us is that we cannot be trusted with them.

When God calls us little children he means it. The idea that we are mature enough and intelligent enough to handle all truth rationally is a conceit. Of course we should get as far as we can.

[stemelbow]

Why is it just a suspicion? Our scriptures talk all the time about things being held back from us. Joseph Smith outright said that the reason we do not have more of the mysteries of God revealed to us is that we cannot be trusted with them.

When God calls us little children he means it. The idea that we are mature enough and intelligent enough to handle all truth rationally is a conceit. Of course we should get as far as we can.

ohh...I'm sure there's plenty left to be revealed and in the realm of eternity we know very little. But I'm talking about not telling us stuff that happened in this world because they don't trust us, thinking if we are told it we will run for the hills--which happens for some when they learn it anyway.

[The Nehor]

ohh...I'm sure there's plenty left to be revealed and in the realm of eternity we know very little. But I'm talking about not telling us stuff that happened in this world because they don't trust us, thinking if we are told it we will run for the hills--which happens for some when they learn it anyway.

That is a big part of what I was talking about too. Many of the words of the Savior were held back from us. The brother of Jared's vision. Jesus told many people to say nothing of their being healed. The book of Moses was told to be withheld from non-believers. I have been to more then one priesthood meeting where we are told to say nothing of what is being taught. I have what I believe to be a very true but controversial insight into a series of events in church history. Even if I am right (and I am convinced I am) I should not share. Some historical truths are withheld as well.

[stemelbow]

That is a big part of what I was talking about too. Many of the words of the Savior were held back from us. The brother of Jared's vision. Jesus told many people to say nothing of their being healed. The book of Moses was told to be withheld from non-believers. I have been to more then one priesthood meeting where we are told to say nothing of what is being taught. I have what I believe to be a very true but controversial insight into a series of events in church history. Even if I am right (and I am convinced I am) I should not share. Some historical truths are withheld as well.

It's silly to withhold historical truths when anyone can research subjects and uncover these truths. By all means withhold visions, or personal experiences with the Divine, even the nonsense you share with your priesthood body, but no need to pretend that MMM was something it was not. It's not like that event was some pearl that no one can understand.

[ERayR]

Elder Packer was clearly instructing the CES educators not to teach history that was non-faith promoting. So why does the method JS used to translate the plates or the fact that he married other men's wives and teenage girls fall into the category of not being faith promoting?

This isn't the airing of dirty laundry, these things were commanded by God. Shouldn't we instead be shouting these truths from the roof tops?

 

Find a roof top and start shouting.

[The Nehor]

It's silly to withhold historical truths when anyone can research subjects and uncover these truths. By all means withhold visions, or personal experiences with the Divine, even the nonsense you share with your priesthood body, but no need to pretend that MMM was something it was not. It's not like that event was some pearl that no one can understand.

I have met swine that seemed incapable of understanding the events surrounding the MMM. They even tried to rend me.

Edited December 10, 2014 by The Nehor

[Thinking]

From a critic's perspective:

If something is true and it could hurt the LDS Church, then it matters.

If something is true and it could help the LDS Church, then it doesn't matter.

 

From an apologist's perspective:

If something is true and it could help the LDS Church, then it matters.

If something is true and it could hurt the LDS Church, then it doesn't matter.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Thinking

[The Nehor]

From a critic's perspective:

If something is true and it could hurt the LDS Church, then it matters.

If something is true and it could help the LDS Church, then it doesn't matter.

 

From an apologist's perspective:

If something is true and it could help the LDS Church, then it matters.

If something is true and it could hurt the LDS Church, then it doesn't matter.

 

If something is false and could hurt the LDS church, then some anonymous critic will say it or hint at it.

If something is false and could help the LDS church, someone will talk at length about it in a Fast and Testimony meeting.

[Freedom]

You have that right, but that is NOT what the scriptures quoted tell us.

Nor does it say that spirits are created or that at some point we did not exist as spirits. It is simply not clear enough to draw a definitive conclusion on the matter.