Book Of Mormon Criticism: Lack Of Evidence Of Large Armies. A Find In Egypt Of A Persian Army Lost 2500 Years Is Intriguing

[canard78]

Mormon 6:15 states that the bodies of the slain Nephites were left upon the ground to moulder and return to their mother earth.

Or maybe we are to believe that Mormon and the surviving 24 Nephites took the time to bury them all so that you can have a more accurate record than that found on the gold plates?

 

 

But I suppose no one finds this intriguing:

"One, the "Great Mound on the Rouge" in Delray at the junction of the Rouge and Detroit rivers, captured the fancy of early historians. It was 400 feet long, 200 feet wide and 40 feet high. It was so packed with bones that they were easily exposed by wandering cattle."

http://www.detroittechnomilitia.com/main/index.php/techno-history/detroit-history/120-detroits-curse-indian-burial-mounds

Nope. No ancient bones found in North America.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Given you're new it's difficult to catch your 'sub-text'

[Pinecone]

Well, bones left out in the open rot and fall apart, crumble - or moulder- eventually leaving no trace.

Thus an explanation for no "bones" of the remaining Nephites slain near the Hill Cumorah, which seems to be an issue for some here.

But since there were bones found in a mound located in what is now downtown Detroit, and elsewhwere, there is evidence of ancient bones in North America - obviously of some battles - long before the last - which had survivors who buried them which burying preserved them.

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, bones left out in the open rot and fall apart, crumble - or moulder- eventually leaving no trace.

Thus an explanation for no "bones" of the remaining Nephites slain near the Hill Cumorah, which seems to be an issue for some here.

But since there were bones found in a mound located in what is now downtown Detroit, and elsewhwere, there is evidence of ancient bones in North America - obviously of some battles - long before the last - which had survivors who buried them which burying preserved them.

You might want to consult an archeologist on the purpose served by common  burial mounds over a long period of time, which are not indicative of battle or mass executions.  Moreover, all battles which take place in the open and in which a large number of bodies remain on the field do not simple moulder without leaving a trace.  Nature slowly covers them with dirt and they remain to be excavated at some later time -- as has been true of the battlefield at Little Bighorn, Montana, where Custer made his last stand against Sioux and Cheyenne warriors.  Archeologists are still making discoveries there, and local guides can show you the artefacts which have been found,

[Robert F. Smith]

That is a popular online anti-mormon straw man. That has happened many times in the past, for example some of the Maya called the European horses and donkeys "tapirs". ....................................

And the Aztecs called the Spanish horses "deer."

 

But non-mormon historians do not have the history of Book of Mormon cities. "We do not find Book of Mormon names in Maya inscriptions for two reasons. First, few inscriptions are contemporary with the Book of Mormon. Second, they come from cities that are not considered by Latter-day Saint scholars to have been Nephite" 

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/behind-the-mask-behind-the-curtain-uncovering-the-illusion-a-review-of-the-bible-vs-the-book-of-mormon .

Yes, but ridicule is so much more fun than a factual discussion.  Why use reason when you can throw out a canard?

 

The critics redefine their arguments. 

The Book of Mormon geography of Arabia was defined before the evidence was found. 

Sorenson predicted 2,000 year old ruins in Lake Atitlan.

The critics strangely scurry away into obscurity and anonymity when confronted by fact.  But they'll be back later with more volleys of ridicule in order to assuage their confrontation with cognitive dissonance.  As though this discussion never took place . . .

[Robert F. Smith]

Oh yes, I forgot. These days with the Book of Mormon horse means llama, barley means cocoa bean and 100s of 1000s means "about 213-ish." The stone in the hat thought it would be a funny game to say one thing and mean the other.

The latest new one I'm seeing emerging on some discussions here is that black skin in the scriptures (Book of Mormon/Moses 7:22) doesn't refer to pigmentation... Oh no, silly reader, they simply meant that their souls were metaphorically darkened by sin. What's next?

This is a response made in a fit of pique, and filled with straw men.  We could have a rational, fact-based discussion, but you choose to ridicule.  Why?

[The Nehor]

Given the title if this thread is: "Book Of Mormon Criticism: Lack Of Evidence Of Large Armies. A Find In Egypt Of A Persian Army Lost 2500 Years Is Intriguing" would it not be fair to assume that the OP was more focused on the Book of Mormon's current paucity of evidence and suggesting we don't worry about it in light of this new find.

I disagree that we have a paucity of evidence but that may be what the OP was saying. It may also be the OP saying that said paucity in this one area is completely understandable or even calling critics morons for suggesting this is evidence.

Imagine that we find a text from 1000 BCE talking about a battle. It specifies only that it happened somewhere in Europe. Suppose we decide to argue that this battle did or did not take place based on not finding anything yet to substantiate the account. Would this be reasonable?

[Kaleb Webb]

Ether 15:1-2 says that two million Jaredites died in the last battles at the hill Ramah, which Moroni identifies as the Hill Cumorah. That's a lot of bones/arrows/swords to be absent in upstate New York...

[MormonFreeThinker]

Ether 15:1-2 says that two million Jaredites died in the last battles at the hill Ramah, which Moroni identifies as the Hill Cumorah.

 

Webster's Dictionary 1828

Million 1. The number of ten hundred thousand, or a thousand thousand. It is used as a noun or an adjective; as a million of men, or a million men. As a noun, it has a regular plural, millions. 2. In common usage, a very great number, indefinitely.

 

Thousand 1. Denoting the number of ten hundred. 2. Proverbially, denoting a great number indefinitely.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/

 

I think they exaggerated with the numbers, the Book of Mormon does not have to be infallible with the numbers or estimates.  

 

 

That's a lot of bones/arrows/swords to be absent in upstate New York...

 

Mesoamerica, 

[sunstoned]

Webster's Dictionary 1828

Million 1. The number of ten hundred thousand, or a thousand thousand. It is used as a noun or an adjective; as a million of men, or a million men. As a noun, it has a regular plural, millions. 2. In common usage, a very great number, indefinitely.

 

Thousand 1. Denoting the number of ten hundred. 2. Proverbially, denoting a great number indefinitely.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/

 

I think they exaggerated with the numbers, the Book of Mormon does not have to be infallible with the numbers or estimates.  

 

 

 

Mesoamerica, 

According to many latter day prophets it was in New York.

[LinuxGal]

But since there were bones found in a mound located in what is now downtown Detroit, and elsewhwere, there is evidence of ancient bones in North America - obviously of some battles - long before the last - which had survivors who buried them which burying preserved them.

 

They found the bones of Kennewick Man some 9,000 years after he died alone in the wilderness without the benefit of being buried in a mound.

[Thinking]

Webster's Dictionary 1828

Million 1. The number of ten hundred thousand, or a thousand thousand. It is used as a noun or an adjective; as a million of men, or a million men. As a noun, it has a regular plural, millions. 2. In common usage, a very great number, indefinitely.

 

Thousand 1. Denoting the number of ten hundred. 2. Proverbially, denoting a great number indefinitely.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/

 

I think they exaggerated with the numbers, the Book of Mormon does not have to be infallible with the numbers or estimates.

 

Nice try.

 

The description in Ether 15:2 is clear that the number is more than 1 million.

He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart;

 

If millions is supposed to just represent a large number

• what is the purpose of including the number two before it?
• why use the adverb nearly?

Also, in the previous chapter it was reported that in one battle many thousands fell by the sword (Ether 14:4). Why would the author change from thousands to millions if he didn't intend for the reader to believe that it was now millions?

[ERayR]

Nice try.

 

The description in Ether 15:2 is clear that the number is more than 1 million.

 

If millions is supposed to just represent a large number

• what is the purpose of including the number two before it?
• why use the adverb nearly?

Also, in the previous chapter it was reported that in one battle many thousands fell by the sword (Ether 14:4). Why would the author change from thousands to millions if he didn't intend for the reader to believe that it was now millions?

 

What are you trying to say?

[Thinking]

What are you trying to say?

 

I interpreted MFT's post to focus on definition #2 (In common usage, a very great number, indefinitely). If millions was just being used as a very great number, there would be no need to include nearly two before it.

[ERayR]

I interpreted MFT's post to focus on definition #2 (In common usage, a very great number, indefinitely). If millions was just being used as a very great number, there would be no need to include nearly two before it.

 

 

Got it.  Thanks

[thesometimesaint]

According to many latter day prophets it was in New York.

 

So? We don't believe prophets are infallible. What we do know is that the plates were buried in upstate New York. On a small hill nowhere big enough to be the one described in the Book of Mormon.

Edited November 28, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Sleeper Cell]

Oh yes, I forgot. These days with the Book of Mormon horse means llama, barley means cocoa bean and 100s of 1000s means "about 213-ish." The stone in the hat thought it would be a funny game to say one thing and mean the other.

The latest new one I'm seeing emerging on some discussions here is that black skin in the scriptures (Book of Mormon/Moses 7:22) doesn't refer to pigmentation... Oh no, silly reader, they simply meant that their souls were metaphorically darkened by sin. What's next?

The latest argument?  Re: the Book of Mormon, Hugh  Nibley made that argument nearly 50 years ago (Since Cumorah), and probably in other publications even earlier.  IIRC, other LDS scholars made this same argument a generation earlier than Nibley, but I don’t have a reference handy.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Sleeper Cell

[morgan.deane]

Ether 15:1-2 says that two million Jaredites died in the last battles at the hill Ramah, which Moroni identifies as the Hill Cumorah. That's a lot of bones/arrows/swords to be absent in upstate New York...

 

 

The idea that millions refers to an exact number of a battle in front of the Hill Cumorah is a common misconception. The "millions" that some site is actually "nearly" that number (as somebody else has already mentioned). So critics take a figure explicitly inexact and turn it into a precise number. There is internal evidence for doubting BoM numbers elsewhere as well. At one point Mormon says that the Nephites “numbered as it were, the sands of the sea”. Yet this innumerable nation only mustered 30,000 soldiers for their war of survival against the Lamanites. (Mormon 1:7; 2:25) And again, notice the phrase "as it were.'"

 

But back to the millions at hand, this number (of millions) is assumed to be from one battle in one area. This is demonstrably false. Ether 15:2 states that these casualties are in the past tense. So you have to look at chapter 14:

v 1-2 social order breaks down

v 3 civil war faction "gave battle" unto Coriantumur

v 4 more battles, travel

v 5 a long siege more deaths

v 6-10 more civil war and intrigue

v 11 two factions "give battle" across the land

v 13 another battle

v 14 army "smited"

v 16 a series of battles across the land

v 17 "many" cities overthrown and inhabitants killed

v 18-26 "swift" and "speedy" destruction across the land

v 27 more battle

 

So Chapter 15:2 is the result of the previous sanguine conflicts that ranged across the land. Not one battle in front of Ramah. I have much more detailed material coming out in my next book about numbers, but you can see some of the material at this post and elsewhere on my blog: 

http://mormonwar.blogspot.com/2009/12/millions-in-book-of-mormon.htm  

[Sleeper Cell]

If only Joseph had some divine help while translating to add clarification. Apparently the 15th century translation committee weren't great editors.

Maybe the “divine help” didn’t think that the actual numbers were all that important.  Say, compared to the reasons they died. And the lessons we should learn from their mistakes.     

[Sleeper Cell]

They found the bones of Kennewick Man some 9,000 years after he died alone in the wilderness without the benefit of being buried in a mound.

IIRC, a few years ago, a group of descendants of Parley P. Pratt made an effort to have his body exhumed from a small Arkansas cemetery  and reburied in Utah.  They found that his body had completely decomposed over a comparatively short 150 years. 

[Robert F. Smith]

IIRC, a few years ago, a group of descendants of Parley P. Pratt made an effort to have his body exhumed from a small Arkansas cemetery  and reburied in Utah.  They found that his body had completely decomposed over a comparatively short 150 years. 

CFR that it had "completely decomposed."  Of course there would be decomp, but there would also still be remains detectable by scientific forensic means.  Naturally one would want to know what level the water table was at during that 150 years, and whether the actual burial site could even be found.  Details.

[Robert F. Smith]

Ether 15:1-2 says that two million Jaredites died in the last battles at the hill Ramah, which Moroni identifies as the Hill Cumorah. That's a lot of bones/arrows/swords to be absent in upstate New York...

Exactly.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Nice try.

 

The description in Ether 15:2 is clear that the number is more than 1 million.

 

It doesn't matter if it is talking about the number, it is an exaggeration, the Book of Mormon doesn't have to be perfect with numbers and estimates. 

 

It is possible that the word "million" in the Book of Mormon means "military unit", read  the book published by Oxford University Press. 

It is a possibility, if it is wrong, it doesn't matter because the Book of Mormon is not required to be perfect about the numbers. 

 

So nice try. 

[LinuxGal]

Maybe the “divine help” didn’t think that the actual numbers were all that important.  Say, compared to the reasons they died. And the lessons we should learn from their mistakes.     

 

Mormon 1:7 The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.

 

Not anything near the whole face of the land has become covered with buildings in 2014 America.  When our civilization goes, the concrete foundations of our buildings will persist for thousands of years, with their tell-tale right angles.  We've found nothing like this from studying pre-Columbian America.

[Thinking]

It doesn't matter if it is talking about the number, it is an exaggeration, the Book of Mormon doesn't have to be perfect with numbers and estimates.

 

How do you know it's an exaggeration?

 

It is possible that the word "million" in the Book of Mormon means "military unit", read  the book published by Oxford University Press. 

It is a possibility, if it is wrong, it doesn't matter because the Book of Mormon is not required to be perfect about the numbers.

 

If million really meant military unit, would not the spirit have conveyed that to Joseph Smith, or are we back to the literal translation of a language that the Nephites allegedly created and there is no example of anywhere?

Edited November 29, 2014 by Thinking

[Kaleb Webb]

 

The idea that millions refers to an exact number of a battle in front of the Hill Cumorah is a common misconception. The "millions" that some site is actually "nearly" that number (as somebody else has already mentioned). So critics take a figure explicitly inexact and turn it into a precise number. There is internal evidence for doubting BoM numbers elsewhere as well. At one point Mormon says that the Nephites “numbered as it were, the sands of the sea”. Yet this innumerable nation only mustered 30,000 soldiers for their war of survival against the Lamanites. (Mormon 1:7; 2:25) And again, notice the phrase "as it were.'"

 

But back to the millions at hand, this number (of millions) is assumed to be from one battle in one area. This is demonstrably false. Ether 15:2 states that these casualties are in the past tense. So you have to look at chapter 14:

v 1-2 social order breaks down

v 3 civil war faction "gave battle" unto Coriantumur

v 4 more battles, travel

v 5 a long siege more deaths

v 6-10 more civil war and intrigue

v 11 two factions "give battle" across the land

v 13 another battle

v 14 army "smited"

v 16 a series of battles across the land

v 17 "many" cities overthrown and inhabitants killed

v 18-26 "swift" and "speedy" destruction across the land

v 27 more battle

 

So Chapter 15:2 is the result of the previous sanguine conflicts that ranged across the land. Not one battle in front of Ramah. I have much more detailed material coming out in my next book about numbers, but you can see some of the material at this post and elsewhere on my blog: 

http://mormonwar.blo...k-of-mormon.htm  

 

Whether it was two million or not, there were at least a million Jaredites who died in the space of twenty or thirty years, and the Book of Ether doesn't say exactly how many were in the very last battle, but Ether 15:14 says that it took four years to gather all the people for the final battle, down to every last woman and child. The site where the battle took place was later "covered with bones" as mentioned in Mosiah 25:26-27:

 

 26 Nevertheless, they did find a land which had been peopled; yea, a land which was covered with dry bones; yea, a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed; and they, having supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla, returned to the land of Nephi, having arrived in the borders of the land not many days before the coming of Ammon.

 27 And they brought a record with them, even a record of the people whose bones they had found; and it was engraven on plates of ore.