The Fanny Alger Puzzle

[JLHPROF]

Thanks for the added clarity. I appreciate it. Could you kindly point me to them. Thanks.

 

Note I said -at least 1, maybe 2- neither were canon or guaranteed, but to blindly assume that neither existed is just closed-minded.

You want absolute proof of a religious matter, well, you're on your own.

But three indications of a pre-Fanny Alger revelation on Plural marriage follow, whether you can accept them or not:

 

1.

 

Translation of the Bible in 1831 led to the question that brought about the first revelation as indicated in D&C 132's eventual canonized form:

 

D&C 132

Header

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831. See Official Declaration 1

 

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

 

This section of the Bible was translated near the end of 1830 leading to the mention inquiry and first response.  D&C 132 with its mention of sealing keys was a continuation of that revelation AFTER the sealing keys were restored in 1836.

 

2.

 

 REVELATION RECEIVED WEST OF JACKSON COUNTY, MISSOURI, ON 17 JULY 1831

 

    Part — of a revelation by Joseph Smith Jun. given over the boundary, west of Jackson Co. Missouri, on Sunday morning, July 17, 1831, when Seven Elders, viz: Joseph Smith Jun. Oliver Cowdery, W.W. Phelps, Martin Harris, Joseph Coe, Ziba Peterson and Joshua Lewis united their hearts in prayer, in a private place, to inquire of the Lord who should preach the first sermon to the remnants of the Lamanites and Nephites, and the people of that Section, that should assemble that day in the Indian country, to hear the gospel, and the revelations according to the Book of Mormon.

    Among the company, there being neither pen, ink or paper, Joseph [smith, Jr.] remarked that the Lord could preserve his words as he had ever done, till the time appointed, and proceeded:

    Verily, verily, saith the Lord your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, the light and the life of the world, ye can not discerne [discern] with your natural eyes, the design and the purpose of your Lord and your God, in bringing you thus far into the wilderness for a trial of your faith, and to be especial witnesses, to bear testimony of this land, upon which the zion of God shall be built up in the last days, when it is redeemed.

    Verily, inasmuch as ye are united in calling upon my name to know my will concerning who shall preach to the inhabitants that shall assemble this day to learn what new doctrine you have to teach them, you have done wisely, for so did the prophets anciently, even Enoch, and Abraham, and others: and therefore, it is my will that my servant Oliver Cowdery should open the meeting with prayer; that my servant W. W. Phelps should preach the discourse; and that my servants Joseph Coe and Ziba Peterson should bear testimony as they shall be moved by the Holy Spirit. This will be pleasing in the sight of your Lord.

    Verily I say unto you, ye are laying the foundation of a great work for the salvation of as many as will believe and repent, and obey the ordinances of the gospel, and continue faithful to the end: For, as I live, saith the Lord, so shall they live.

    Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.

    Gird up your loins and be prepared for the mighty work of the Lord to prepare the world for my second coming to meet the tribes of Israel according to the predictions of all the holy prophets since the beginning; For the final desolation, and decrees upon Babylon: For, as the everlasting gospel is carried from this land, in love for peace, to gather mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, for Zion,— even so shall rebellion follow after speedily, with hatred for war until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all the kingdoms and nations that strive to govern themselves by the laws and precepts, and force and powers of men under the curse of sin, in all the world.

    Verily I say unto you, that the day of vexation and vengeance is nigh at the doors of this nation, when wicked, ungodly and daring men will rise up in wrath and might, and go forth in anger, like as the dust is driven by [a] terrible wind; and they will be the means of the destruction of the government, and cause the death and misery of man[y] souls, but the faithful among my people shall be preserved in holy places, during all these tribulations.

    Be patient, therefore, possessing your souls in peace and love, and keep the faith that is now delivered unto you for the gathering of scattered Israel, and lo, I am with you, though ye cannot see me, till I come: even so. Amen.

    Reported by W.W.P. [William W. Phelps]

    About three years after this was given, I asked brother Joseph [smith, Jr.] privately, how "we," that were mentioned in the revelation could take wives from the "natives"—as we were all married men? He replied instantly "In th[e] same manner that Abraham took Hagar and Katurah [Keturah]; and Jacob took Rachel Bilhah and Zilpah: by revelation—the saints of the Lord are always directed by revelation.

 

3.

 

[At age 12 in 1831], [smith] told me about his great vision concerning me. He said I was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife. ... In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a Wife ... [in 1842 age 23] I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing ... for time, and all Eternity. I did just as Joseph told me to do[.]

 

 

Nothing canonical, but I never said their was.  Just that there were revelations that led to the Fanny Alger incident in my opinion.

[canard78]

Joseph received revelation on plural marriage when translating the Bible in the early 1830's.

Let's see some evidence for that please. Preferably before the 1860s letter by Phelps which is the best you have. Your statement is conjecture.

Fanny Alger was most likely an attempt on his part to start practicing a doctrine he had studied and received revelation on without fully understanding it.

D&C 132 as it is canonized is the clarified, full deal version.

But there was absolutely revelation on plural marriage (at least 1, maybe 2) before the Fanny Alger incident.

As to his lying, just plain old pearls before swine rules again.

And either way, Fanny was sealed to Joseph posthumously. If we believe in sealing and if Fanny chooses, she will be one of his eternal companions.

Given how quickly she moved on from the non-marriage it would suggest a polite "no" might be expected.

[canard78]

Note I said -at least 1, maybe 2- neither were canon or guaranteed, but to blindly assume that neither existed is just closed-minded.

You want absolute proof of a religious matter, well, you're on your own.

But three indications of a pre-Fanny Alger revelation on Plural marriage follow, whether you can accept them or not:

1.

2.

3.

Nothing canonical, but I never said their was. Just that there were revelations that led to the Fanny Alger incident in my opinion.

1 is more conjecture on your part

2 is unreliable given the context and the time gap

3... Source please

[JLHPROF]

Let's see some evidence for that please. Preferably before the 1860s letter by Phelps which is the best you have. Your statement is conjecture.

Given how quickly she moved on from the non-marriage it would suggest a polite "no" might be expected.

 

1 is more conjecture on your part

2 is unreliable given the context and the time gap

3... Source please

 

You miss the point -

I specifically said:

"at least 1, maybe 2- neither were canon or guaranteed, but to blindly assume that neither existed is just closed-minded.

You want absolute proof of a religious matter, well, you're on your own.

But three indications of a pre-Fanny Alger revelation on Plural marriage follow, whether you can accept them or not:"

 

 

These are all absolute conjecture.  But these conjectures provide 3 pieces of possible evidence of a pre-Fanny revelation.  None of them were ever used by anyone to justify the Alger relationship.  So you've got three hints at Joseph receiving revelation on plural marriage.  That's all they are.  Hints.  Choose not to believe them if you want.  But there's no smoke without fire and no reason for all three to be summarily dismissed.

 

Not trying to prove anything.  But nor am I standing here stating falsely that there is ZERO evidence for an earlier revelation.  There may be no PROOF (irrefutable), but there is some EVIDENCE (indication).

[canard78]

You miss the point -

I specifically said:

These are all absolute conjecture. But these conjectures provide 3 pieces of possible evidence of a pre-Fanny revelation. None of them were ever used by anyone to justify the Alger relationship. So you've got three hints at Joseph receiving revelation on plural marriage. That's all they are. Hints. Choose not to believe them if you want. But there's no smoke without fire and no reason for all three to be summarily dismissed.

Not trying to prove anything. But nor am I standing here stating falsely that there is ZERO evidence for an earlier revelation. There may be no PROOF (irrefutable), but there is some EVIDENCE (indication).

I'm more than happy to discuss evidences. I had initially responded and objected to you saying:

Joseph received revelation on plural marriage when translating the Bible in the early 1830's.

It was a pretty absolute statement.

[Glenn101]

So, the bottom line is that we have some anecdotal evidences that Joseph had some type of relationship with Fanny that went beyond friendship. It could have been a sealing because we do not know what authority that Joseph was given at the time. It could have involved a sexual relationship, or it could not have. It could have been with Emma's consent, or it may  not have. People "strongly suspect" one thing or another.

 

Oliver's statement about the Fanny Alger affair does not seem to indicate first hand knowledge, i.e. that he actually saw any sexual activity. 

 

 

We do not know when the actual revelation to Joseph was given.  We have his words that he was reluctant to follow the dictates of that commandment, and delayed until he was threatened by an angel with a drawn sword.

 

This is a point I have made before, to no avail. We have a lot of stories, but few solid facts on which to base useless theories. Those who actually know or knew what happened or in another realm at this point time and have not bothered to come back and enlighten any of us. We are in no position to make any informed, righteous judgments.

 

God will handle all of it, and all of us. He is one of those who actually knows what He commanded and what went down.

 

Glenn

[cursor]

Yeah, what fancy [redacted]. Talk about dancin' .. Are you happy/satisfied with that?

 

Read the forum rules before posting, otherwise you would know that profanity will not be tolerated. ~Mods

 

Since redacted ... and I can't see exactly what I might have said that might have been offensive, I guess I should now have to review the forum rules. Might the sum of all restricted rules be listed there? Perhaps I can "damn" when I can't otherwise say "darn." Rest assured that what I posted that my father might well have said to me. Hey, could be that I have no clue. "Profanity," what exactly is that? 

[cursor]

It might be a positive rule (by policy) to issue a constructive PM (by perceiving Mods) to any perceived violator, identifying any perceived violations of code. I'll look forward to my upcoming PM. Hey thanks.

Edited January 14, 2015 by cursor

[Thinking]

We have his words that he was reluctant to follow the dictates of that commandment, and delayed until he was threatened by an angel with a drawn sword.

 

Is there any record of anybody besides Joseph actually seeing the angel with the drawn sword?

[cinepro]

Is there any record of anybody besides Joseph actually seeing the angel with the drawn sword?

 

Just this.  And this.

[canard78]

Just this.  And this.

 

6000 years and only 3 jobs. That's a cushy number.