Militaristic Hymns: Should We Put Them Aside?

[bluebell]

 

 

I believe the term "Crusaders" is used derisively in some Muslim circles to describe Christians. As we reach out to Muslims, do we want to be associated with the Crusades?

 

No one would want to be associated with the crusades when they realize how horribly the crusaders behaved.

[thesometimesaint]

I've never heard of anyone interpreting 'disarms a foeman' to mean actually cutting off their arm.  

 

Yep, the Crusaders were just trying to convert Muslims, Jews, with the taking of Jerusalem in 1099 CE.

Edited October 27, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[The Nehor]

But then what will we sing while cleaving infidels in twain?

[USU78]

No one would want to be associated with the crusades when they realize how horribly the crusaders behaved.

 

Context, as is to often the case, is missing here:

 

630 Mohammed takes Mecca

635 Muslims conquer Damascus

637 Muslims conquer Jerusalem

641 Muslims conquer Persia and Egypt

694 Dome of the Rock constructed

693 Muslims conquer Armenia

698 Muslims conquer Carthage

711 Muslims conquer Andalusia

732 Muslims turned back at Tours by Charles Martel

809 Muslims conquer Sardinia and Corsica

827 Muslims conquer Sicily

846 Muslims attack Rome

1090 Assassin sect founded

1095 1st Crusade

1099 Jerusalem retaken by Crusaders

1187 Saladin reconquers Jerusalem

1189 3rd Crusade

1228 6th Crusade:  Friedrich II retakes Jerusalem

1244 Muslims reconquer Jerusalem

1252 Muslims pushed back to and confined in Granada

1291 Acre falls to Muslims, Crusades end

1453 Constantinople falls to Muslims

1529 Vienna withstands 1st Muslim siege

1683 Vienna withstands 2nd Muslim siege

 

If anybody believes the Muslims in Turkey, Persia, Egypt, the Mediterranean islands were anything other bloody-handed and cruel, he is kidding himself.

 

If anybody believes the Muslim expansionist agenda ended with but was caused by the Crusades, he is kidding himself.

 

The Crusades lasted only 1095-1291, 196 years.

 

Muslim expansionism, if measured only to 1683's 2nd Siege of Vienna, lasted 1,048 years (635-1683).

 

Are we really supposed to believe that Chivalric Mischief during a less than 200 year period is somehow far worse than the more than 1,000 years of Muslim terror across Asia, Africa and Europe?

[thesometimesaint]

Context, as is to often the case, is missing here:

 

630 Mohammed takes Mecca

635 Muslims conquer Damascus

637 Muslims conquer Jerusalem

641 Muslims conquer Persia and Egypt

694 Dome of the Rock constructed

693 Muslims conquer Armenia

698 Muslims conquer Carthage

711 Muslims conquer Andalusia

732 Muslims turned back at Tours by Charles Martel

809 Muslims conquer Sardinia and Corsica

827 Muslims conquer Sicily

846 Muslims attack Rome

1090 Assassin sect founded

1095 1st Crusade

1099 Jerusalem retaken by Crusaders

1187 Saladin reconquers Jerusalem

1189 3rd Crusade

1228 6th Crusade:  Friedrich II retakes Jerusalem

1244 Muslims reconquer Jerusalem

1252 Muslims pushed back to and confined in Granada

1291 Acre falls to Muslims, Crusades end

1453 Constantinople falls to Muslims

1529 Vienna withstands 1st Muslim siege

1683 Vienna withstands 2nd Muslim siege

 

If anybody believes the Muslims in Turkey, Persia, Egypt, the Mediterranean islands were anything other bloody-handed and cruel, he is kidding himself.

 

If anybody believes the Muslim expansionist agenda ended with but was caused by the Crusades, he is kidding himself.

 

The Crusades lasted only 1095-1291, 196 years.

 

Muslim expansionism, if measured only to 1683's 2nd Siege of Vienna, lasted 1,048 years (635-1683).

 

Are we really supposed to believe that Chivalric Mischief during a less than 200 year period is somehow far worse than the more than 1,000 years of Muslim terror across Asia, Africa and Europe?

 

Do we sing the praises of violent religions?

[Bernard Gui]

Moral equivalence hardly works here...  My sons unit conservatively helped 1000 Muslims with their schools and businesses, protected them from the Taliban and insured their safe transport.  Meanwhile they never shot anyone in aggression other than the single Afghan Police Officer who shot two of their soldiers in a surprise Blue on Green attack.  The Crusades were a limited number of campaigns to blunt the overrunning of Christian Europe by Islamic states who had been attacking and expanding for 500 years over thousands of battlefields. ISIS is committing more murder against Muslims than any other group.

 

I judge them not by their hymns but by their actions.

 

But if you really like Islamic victory songs here is a catchy little ditty:

 

I'm not trying to make a moral equivalency here, obviously. 

What do you think about singing "Hope of Israel" or any of the other militant LDS hymns (mostly derived from Protestantism, which at times has been quite

militant, literally, not symbolically) in a sacrament service in a Muslim country or with Muslem investigators in the congregation?

 

By the way, my son also served in Afghanistan, but his mission was more deadly.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

One factor that may influence that...  it is illegal to preach Christianity or any other religion in most Muslim countries.

Note that in the OP I stipulated that we may soon have missionaries in Muslim countries. When my son Parcciamonte

was born, if you had told me he would serve a mission in Poland, I would have told you that you were loony.

My father (who is Polish), however, prophesied that he would.

[Bernard Gui]

I was thinking this very same thing last night except we were singing "Carry on" which when singing about Mountains and deserts on the prairies it loses its edge....!

Yes. Quite a few of our hymns are Utah-centric, and, in my opinion, should be retired, unless, of course, we still consider Utah to be Zion. Maybe even then.

[Bernard Gui]

Yes! I was a military brat and served myself. It is long past time to reject the violent imagery of military conquest, let alone the cutting off arms of fellow human beings with swords.

Granted the words of these militant hymns are supposedly symbolic of spiritual battles, but we do use military images in them to promote advancing the kingdom of God. Maybe in these

times of cooperation, reconciliation, and diversity it is time to reconsider, because some people take such things seriously.

[Bernard Gui]

But then what will we sing while cleaving infidels in twain?

Hymn 321 Ye Who Are Called To Labor....

While lifting up your voices like trumpets long and loud,

Say to the slumbering nations, 'Prepare to meet your God.'

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes. Quite a few of our hymns are Utah-centric, and, in my opinion, should be retired, unless, of course, we still consider Utah to be Zion. Maybe even then.

Much of the history of the Church of Jesus Christ is Utah-centric. It's just a fact of, well, history.

 

That doesn't mean the events of the Utah period of Church history are not relevant to every Church member.

 

And it's an important part of our history, as it was in the valleys of Deseret that the Church finally found stability and was able to grow and thrive. And nothing is more important to the worldwide spread of the gospel than that fact.

 

It would be short-sighted indeed to claim, say, that the Nauvoo period of Church history should only have meaning to Illinois Mormons.

[Bernard Gui]

"Disarms a foeman" need not mean that. It could mean that it renders a foeman without weaponry, which is what happens every time the natural man is converted and becomes a saint.

You and I know the symbolism involved, but would that be apparent to a Muslim man or woman investigating the gospel? "Hope of Israel rise in might! With the sword of truth and light.

Sound the war cry, watch, and pray. Vanquish every foe today."

[Bernard Gui]

 

 

If anybody believes the Muslims in Turkey, Persia, Egypt, the Mediterranean islands were anything other bloody-handed and cruel, he is kidding himself.

 

If anybody believes the Muslim expansionist agenda ended with but was caused by the Crusades, he is kidding himself.

 

The Crusades lasted only 1095-1291, 196 years.

 

Muslim expansionism, if measured only to 1683's 2nd Siege of Vienna, lasted 1,048 years (635-1683).

 

Are we really supposed to believe that Chivalric Mischief during a less than 200 year period is somehow far worse than the more than 1,000 years of Muslim terror across Asia, Africa and Europe?

 

I'm not concerned about the righteousness of either side of those conflicts, just that today as we may be on the brink of expanding missionary work into Muslim countries, maybe we should

consider the wording of some of our hymns that may prove to be unhelpful, much like "where the red untutored Indian seeketh here his rude delights" might be an impediment to spreading

the gospel among our Native American (north, central, and south) brothers and sisters.

[Bernard Gui]

I've never heard of anyone interpreting 'disarms a foeman' to mean actually cutting off their arm.

 

Well, it served Ammon quite well in his missionary efforts. In fact, a very good friend of mine joined

the church when we were in high school because of the story of Ammon smiting off the arms of

the pranksters who scattered the king's flock. He thought that was the coolest story, and spurred

him to read the rest of the Book of Mormon.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

You and I know the symbolism involved, but would that be apparent to a Muslim man or woman investigating the gospel? "Hope of Israel rise in might! With the sword of truth and light.

Sound the war cry, watch, and pray. Vanquish every foe today."

Well, David McCulloch is quoted as saying that the great American experience is "only one generation deep," meaning it would take only one generation to lose sight of our great national heritage.

 

I'm afraid the same could be said of the historical legacy we have as members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Would that we will remember -- and preserve -- it, including among the newest of converts, wherever they might live.

 

(I'm starting to sound like the 60-year-old that I have recently become.)

 

Edited to add:

 

Sorry, I guess I was thinking of your prior post when I wrote this.

 

Like I said, I just turned 60; perhaps I'm seeing the effects.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

Context, as is to often the case, is missing here:

 

630 Mohammed takes Mecca

635 Muslims conquer Damascus

637 Muslims conquer Jerusalem

641 Muslims conquer Persia and Egypt

694 Dome of the Rock constructed

693 Muslims conquer Armenia

698 Muslims conquer Carthage

711 Muslims conquer Andalusia

732 Muslims turned back at Tours by Charles Martel

809 Muslims conquer Sardinia and Corsica

827 Muslims conquer Sicily

846 Muslims attack Rome

1090 Assassin sect founded

1095 1st Crusade

1099 Jerusalem retaken by Crusaders

1187 Saladin reconquers Jerusalem

1189 3rd Crusade

1228 6th Crusade:  Friedrich II retakes Jerusalem

1244 Muslims reconquer Jerusalem

1252 Muslims pushed back to and confined in Granada

1291 Acre falls to Muslims, Crusades end

1453 Constantinople falls to Muslims

1529 Vienna withstands 1st Muslim siege

1683 Vienna withstands 2nd Muslim siege

 

If anybody believes the Muslims in Turkey, Persia, Egypt, the Mediterranean islands were anything other bloody-handed and cruel, he is kidding himself.

 

If anybody believes the Muslim expansionist agenda ended with but was caused by the Crusades, he is kidding himself.

 

The Crusades lasted only 1095-1291, 196 years.

 

Muslim expansionism, if measured only to 1683's 2nd Siege of Vienna, lasted 1,048 years (635-1683).

 

Are we really supposed to believe that Chivalric Mischief during a less than 200 year period is somehow far worse than the more than 1,000 years of Muslim terror across Asia, Africa and Europe?

I do. The Muslims were the tolerant ones. Other then a tax on non-believers there was no concerted persecution of Christians or Jews living in Islamic lands (unless they rose up of course). Look at what Christians did to Jews in their domains.

Of course there is really only a difference of degree. The Christians and the Muslims deserved each other. They probably still do.

[Bernard Gui]

Much of the history of the Church of Jesus Christ is Utah-centric. It's just a fact of, well, history.

 

That doesn't mean the events of the Utah period of Church history are not relevant to every Church member.

 

And it's an important part of our history, as it was in the valleys of Deseret that the Church finally found stability and was able to grow and thrive. And nothing is more important to the worldwide spread of the gospel than that fact.

 

It would be short-sighted indeed to claim, say, that the Nauvoo period of Church history should only have meaning to Illinois Mormons.

I totally understand and agree and our pioneer heritage is not just for the Sons and Daughters of Utah, but for the worldwide church.

That does not preclude me from wondering why we still sing "O Ye Mountains High" here in Washington where the mountains are indeed

higher than those in Utah.    "Thy deliverance is nigh, thy oppressors shall die....."

[Scott Lloyd]

I totally understand and agree and our pioneer heritage is not just for the Sons and Daughters of Utah, but for the worldwide church.

That does not preclude me from wondering why we still sing "O Ye Mountains High" here in Washington where the mountains are indeed

higher than those in Utah.    "Thy deliverance is nigh, thy oppressors shall die....."

If I lived there, it would cause me to reflect on the pioneer period of Utah.

 

Of course, if I did live there, I would, in fact, be a transplanted Utahn.

[Bernard Gui]

Well, David McCulloch is quoted as saying that the great American experience is "only one generation deep," meaning it would take only one generation to lose sight of our great national heritage.

 

I'm afraid the same could be said of the historical legacy we have as members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Would that we will remember -- and preserve -- it, including among the newest of converts, wherever they might live.

 

(I'm starting to sound like the 60-year-old that I have recently become.)

 

Edited to add:

 

Sorry, I guess I was thinking of your prior post when I wrote this.

 

Like I said, I just turned 60; perhaps I'm seeing the effects.

 

I've got you by several years! I agree totally with your sentiments. It is critical that we remember and honor our pioneer roots. 

A number of hymns do that very well, but a few, such as "In Our Lovely Deseret" seem a bit dated. At any rate, we drift from

the topic of militant texts, militant hymns, and their perception in non-Christian lands that we may soon be visiting.

[Bernard Gui]

If I lived there, it would cause me to reflect on the pioneer period of Utah.

 

Of course, if I did live there, I would, in fact, be a transplanted Utahn.

Aye, there's the rub. Nostalgia runs deep. We would love to introduce you

to the wonders of the Washington mountains. You could hold them dear, too!

Edited October 27, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I do. The Muslims were the tolerant ones. Other then a tax on non-believers there was no concerted persecution of Christians or Jews living in Islamic lands (unless they rose up of course). Look at what Christians did to Jews in their domains.

Of course there is really only a difference of degree. The Christians and the Muslims deserved each other. They probably still do.

Our "militant" hymns derive from that same Christian culture that often included warfare in its efforts to spread itself abroad.

Our efforts have thankfully followed a different path....

 

 

1. 1. Know this, that ev'ry soul is free
   To choose his life and what he'll be;
   For this eternal truth is giv'n:
   That God will force no man to heav'n.
2. 2. He'll call, persuade, direct aright,
   And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
   In nameless ways be good and kind,
   But never force the human mind.
3. 3. Freedom and reason make us men;
   Take these away, what are we then?
   Mere animals, and just as well
   The beasts may think of heav'n or hell.
4. 4. May we no more our pow'rs abuse,
   But ways of truth and goodness choose;
   Our God is pleased when we improve
   His grace and seek his perfect love.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

Our "militant" hymns derive from that same Christian culture that often included warfare in its efforts to spread itself abroad.

The Crusades were defensive at least as often as they were offensive.

[Scott Lloyd]

Aye, there's the rub. Nostalgia runs deep. We would love to introduce you

to the wonders of the Washington mountains. You could hold them dear, too!

I would love it. Sounds wonderful just to hear you mention them.

 

A couple of years ago, I was introduced to the mountains of southwestern Canada. A memorable experience. I suppose the ones in Washington are not so very far removed, in grandeur or distance.

[Bernard Gui]

I would love it. Sounds wonderful just to hear you mention them.

 

A couple of years ago, I was introduced to the mountains of southwestern Canada. A memorable experience. I suppose the ones in Washington are not so very far removed, in grandeur or distance.

Last summer Sister Gui and I drove from Tacoma up through Penticton, Banff, Waterton, and Glacier. It was mile after mile after mile of spectacular mountains. One of the most beautiful trips

we have ever taken. If you are ever in the Seattle area, do not hesitate to let us know....we would love to take you up to Mt Rainier and Mt St Helens.

 

Edited October 27, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

The Crusades were defensive at least as often as they were offensive.

Indeed. But now we are knocking on the Muslim door with different intent and methods.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Bernard Gui