Ann Taves: The "materialization" Of The Golden Plates

[Mike Reed]

I appreciate Taves' contribution, and will certainly keep it in mind as I continue researching the "problem" of the metalic artifact. I have a couple insights that i think would contribute to her theory. But based on my research thus far, I favor a different theory: Joseph Smith obtained/discovered masonic props (which could include the sword, u&t, breastplate, and compass). Similar to Joseph's misunderstanding of other artifacts that we have today (kinderhook plates and papyrus) he believed them to be what they were not. My proposal removes the fraud from the pious fraud theory, and interestingly even opens way for a catalyst view of his "translation" process.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Mike Reed

[why me]

I appreciate Taves' contribution, and will certainly keep it in mind as I continue researching the "problem" of the metalic artifact. I have a couple insights that i think would contribute to her theory. But based on my research thus far, I favor a different theory: Joseph Smith obtained/discovered masonic props (which could include the sword, u&t, breastplate, and compass). Similar to Joseph's misunderstanding of other artifacts that we have today (kinderhook plates and papyrus) he believed them to be what they were not. My proposal removes the fraud from the pious fraud theory, and interestingly even opens way for a catalyst view of his "translation" process.

However, it does not explain the claims of the witnesses, especially the three witnesses who saw a vision. Plus we have people present to the translation process who were amazed by the process itself. Then of course we have the visitations to oliver and joseph when they were being ordained. Something is missing in your theory. Not to mention the deathbed confessions of the witnesses. Whatever they experienced they experienced a life changing experience.

[Robert F. Smith]

I had the pleasure of attending the "Positioning Mormonism" Conference in Oct 2004, and Ann Taves was a prime mover in bringing it to Claremont Graduate University (where she was then Dean of the School of Religion).  She not only made the introductory remarks, but she also presented a paper on the final day (Oct 26, 2004) on "“New Directions for Mormon Studies in the Secular University,” in which she entertained several questions:

 

Is Mormonism a new form (denomination) of Christianity?  Or, in the approach of the early Jan Shipps, i.e., as a new world religion.

How do we categorize Mormons?  And then, how do we incorporate/integrate the study of them/it?  Mormonism is the elephant in the room in the West.  She concluded that, In Christian Studies and Religious Studies, we can examine Mormonism as being formed in real time, making it very exciting and interesting.

 

She then presented a very well thought-out chart on "Mormonism and the Book of Mormon," in which she considered a multidisciplinary approach, suggesting that the vertical axis involves religion, while the horizontal is the humanities (sans religion), the left focusing on history, the right on literature/culture.  Race, gender & class the dominant motifs at the intersection.  She has clearly thought a lot about this for a long time, and her research interests and publications indicate that she is well-qualified to study Mormonism:

 

Her research interests: Parapsychology, Anthropology, Mediumship, Phenomenology, Spiritualism, Paranormal, Supernatural, Folklore, Religion, Sociology, New Age spirituality, Religious Experience, Mormonism, Psychology of Religion, Culture and Cognition, Cognitive Science of Religion, Psychology, Spiritualism, Spirit Possession (Anthropology), Dissociation, and Hypnosis.

 

Also author of “The Power of the Paranormal (and Extraordinary): Review Essay,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5063743/The_Power_of_the_Paranormal_and_Extraordinary_Review_Essay .

“Non-Ordinary Powers: Charisma, Special Affordances and the Study of Religion,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5063747/Non-Ordinary_Powers_Charisma_Special_Affordances_and_the_Study_of_Religion .

“A Tale of Two Congresses: The Psychology Study of Psychic, Occult, and Religious Phenomena, 1900-1909,” not yet available.

“Where (Fragmented) Selves Meet Cultures: Theorising Spirit Possession,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5063963/Where_Fragmented_Selves_Meet_Cultures_Theorising_Spirit_Possession .

“Fits, Trances, and Visions: Experiencing Religion and Explaining Experience from Wesley to James,” not yet available.

“Religious Experience,” online at https://www.academia.edu/5064004/Religious_Experience .

 

Taves, Ann, Religious Experience Reconsidered, A Building-Block Approach to the Study of Religion and Other Special Things (Princeton University Press, 2009).

[Robert F. Smith]

I appreciate Taves' contribution, and will certainly keep it in mind as I continue researching the "problem" of the metalic artifact. I have a couple insights that i think would contribute to her theory. But based on my research thus far, I favor a different theory: Joseph Smith obtained/discovered masonic props (which could include the sword, u&t, breastplate, and compass). Similar to Joseph's misunderstanding of other artifacts that we have today (kinderhook plates and papyrus) he believed them to be what they were not. My proposal removes the fraud from the pious fraud theory, and interestingly even opens way for a catalyst view of his "translation" process.

Many years ago a colleague of mine jocularly suggested that the Sword of Laban and the Liahona are ringers for Excalibur and the Holy Grail (Sangreal) or orbis terrarum from the Arthurian romance of Mallory and von Eschenbach -- which predate ritual Masonry and the legends of Rosicrucianism.

 

After all, the Welsh King Henry VIII has himself painted as King Arthur redivivus holding the orbis terrarum and Excalibur, and Wolfram von Eschenbach portrayed the Grail as a green stone or “super jewel” upon which writing could appear, in his medieval Parzival   The Liahona Ball likewise had writing appear upon it (I Ne 16:27-29).  This takes us back to Medieval times, and probably back to even earlier Hermeticism.  Joseph Smith looks more and more like a Renaissance Magus.

[Hillel2]

I appreciate Taves' contribution, and will certainly keep it in mind as I continue researching the "problem" of the metalic artifact. I have a couple insights that i think would contribute to her theory. But based on my research thus far, I favor a different theory: Joseph Smith obtained/discovered masonic props (which could include the sword, u&t, breastplate, and compass). Similar to Joseph's misunderstanding of other artifacts that we have today (kinderhook plates and papyrus) he believed them to be what they were not. My proposal removes the fraud from the pious fraud theory, and interestingly even opens way for a catalyst view of his "translation" process.

Hello.

 

There was a book some years ago on Amazon that posited that the artifacts were indeed masonic and interpreted as "other" by Joseph Smith. I don't recall the name, just the subject matter. Is there some aspect of Joseph Smith's account that would have You favor a discovery of Masonic items? My own "secular" theory would favor (a) native american artifact/s first since these seemed to be all around, particulary in the large mounds that were built by some of the NA cultures in the region.

[Mike Reed]

Many years ago a colleague of mine jocularly suggested that the Sword of Laban and the Liahona are ringers for Excalibur and the Holy Grail (Sangreal) or orbis terrarum from the Arthurian romance of Mallory and von Eschenbach -- which predate ritual Masonry and the legends of Rosicrucianism.

After all, the Welsh King Henry VIII has himself painted as King Arthur redivivus holding the orbis terrarum and Excalibur, and Wolfram von Eschenbach portrayed the Grail as a green stone or “super jewel” upon which writing could appear, in his medieval Parzival The Liahona Ball likewise had writing appear upon it (I Ne 16:27-29). This takes us back to Medieval times, and probably back to even earlier Hermeticism. Joseph Smith looks more and more like a Renaissance Magus.

Great points. Masonic fraternities reached back to such traditions, so I dont think it is necessary to choose one over the other. Thus far, I think the liahona was more likely an actual compass, and that Joseph Smith associated its powers with the mineral compass used by treasure seekers. There is much more to this, but I should save it for publication. Besides, I shouldnt get ahead of myself. I still have much work to do, and I need to keep my conclusions fluid.

[Mike Reed]

Hello.

There was a book some years ago on Amazon that posited that the artifacts were indeed masonic and interpreted as "other" by Joseph Smith. I don't recall the name, just the subject matter. Is there some aspect of Joseph Smith's account that would have You favor a discovery of Masonic items? My own "secular" theory would favor (a) native american artifact/s first since these seemed to be all around, particulary in the large mounds that were built by some of the NA cultures in the region.

There are several reasons... but one good reason may be that Joseph Smith Sr reportedly described the plates as having masonic images on them.

[DonBradley]

Thanks, Mike--your work definitely relates, in fascinating ways, to that of Taves. And I think pursuing your hypothesis is and will be fruitful even if its specifics are not correct, because you hypothesis helps us to look at a different angle of the Nephite relics--how they parallel the relics discussed and used by the Masons.

[DonBradley]

Bob,

 

Oh, I think I need to have you read my manuscript on the lost 116 pages... =)

 

Don

[DonBradley]

While Taves's theory has its challenges (e.g., whether it can reconcile to the details of Joseph's claims that he pried open the stone box, etc.), I would argue that it takes a poor reading of even my summary here, much less of Taves's actual paper, to assert that her theory can't account for people saying they saw and handled the plates. Since she posits the existence of both an actual object and of visionary plates, and that these two are brought together through a process of sacralization, her theory can, in fact, account for such reports, as Steve Harper acknowledged in his response to her paper.

 

While I'm hoping people will point out further actual anomalies in Taves's model, I can't see the existence of witness testimonies as such an anomaly. If you think you do see an anomaly there, please help me understand precisely where the problem lies, in its details, since that's the kind of thing I'm looking for.

 

Thanks,

 

Don 

Edited September 17, 2014 by DonBradley

[Robert F. Smith]

Great points. Masonic fraternities reached back to such traditions, so I dont think it is necessary to choose one over the other. Thus far, I think the liahona was more likely an actual compass, and that Joseph Smith associated its powers with the mineral compass used by treasure seekers. There is much more to this, but I should save it for publication. Besides, I shouldnt get ahead of myself. I still have much work to do, and I need to keep my conclusions fluid.

I imagine that Don will be interested in that mineral compass used by treasure seekers, since he has queried people about the nature of the Liahona prevously.  The likeliest etymology of Liahona is also indicative in that it uses a Hebrew verb hana, hone "pitch tent, encamp," which describes each movement of the Israelites from one encampment to another in the book of Exodus (cf. Egyptian cognate hn "tent").  As you know the Exodus motif is paramount in I Nephi.

[Robert F. Smith]

Bernard, you-know-who has already posited that JSJr, jack-of-all-trades that he was, saved up his money, bought scrap tin, melted the tin down at the local forge/foundry, and hammered out paper-thin plates, which he then, somehow, made to look like gold.

 

............................................

According to the late Mircea Eliade, it goes much further than that:

 

The smith becomes the principal agent in this spread of myths, rites and metallurgical mysteries.

* * * *

The smith plays an important part in religious and social life--he is the master-instructor in initiation ceremonies, he is prophet and divine, etc., . . .

* * * *

The Smith-Counsellor continues and completes the work of God by making man capable of understanding mysteries.  Hence the role of the smith in the initiations at puberty and in secret societies, and his importance in the religious life of the community.  Even his relations with the chiefs and sovereigns, whom, in certain regions, he overlaps, are of a religious character.

 

--Eliade, The Forge and the Crucible: The Origins and Structures of Alchemy, 25, 94, 96.

 

Joseph Smith even had the limp of Hephaestos (Vulcan/Ptah) due to a childhood bout of pyogenic osteomyelitis, for which he had a sequestrectomy operation at about age 7.  Clifton Jolley even concluded (in his BYU doctoral dissertation) that Joseph Smith fit the themes one expects of an entirely archetypal, imaginary person.

[USU78]

 

According to the late Mircea Eliade, it goes much further than that:

 

The smith becomes the principal agent in this spread of myths, rites and metallurgical mysteries.

* * * *

The smith plays an important part in religious and social life--he is the master-instructor in initiation ceremonies, he is prophet and divine, etc., . . .

* * * *

The Smith-Counsellor continues and completes the work of God by making man capable of understanding mysteries.  Hence the role of the smith in the initiations at puberty and in secret societies, and his importance in the religious life of the community.  Even his relations with the chiefs and sovereigns, whom, in certain regions, he overlaps, are of a religious character.

 

--Eliade, The Forge and the Crucible: The Origins and Structures of Alchemy, 25, 94, 96.

 

Joseph Smith even had the limp of Hephaestos (Vulcan/Ptah) due to a childhood bout of pyogenic osteomyelitis, for which he had a sequestrectomy operation at about age 7.  Clifton Jolley even concluded (in his BYU doctoral dissertation) that Joseph Smith fit the themes one expects of an entirely archetypal, imaginary person.

 

 

Interesting:  Since Hephaestos is the Fire/Geburah Prototype, ironically 9(?) paired in his own person with the invalid archetype, and I have read of the connection made between Hephaestos in this aspect and Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrian worship, if JSJr can be tied successfully to Hephaestos and thence to Ahura Mazda, where does that lead us?

 

JSJr as husband of Venus [with his strong association with the marriage bed/eternal marriage/plural marriage];

JSJr as the burning fire that fuels all life;

JSJr as the maker and giver of useful gifts to man;

JSJr as the "One Mighty and Strong";

JSJr as the . . . you name it.

 

So easy to see how an actual person gets made, over centuries, into a g-d or demi-g-d.

 

He really does fit the pattern, doesn't he?

[Robert F. Smith]

Interesting:  Since Hephaestos is the Fire/Geburah Prototype, ironically 9(?) paired in his own person with the invalid archetype, and I have read of the connection made between Hephaestos in this aspect and Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrian worship, if JSJr can be tied successfully to Hephaestos and thence to Ahura Mazda, where does that lead us?

 

JSJr as husband of Venus [with his strong association with the marriage bed/eternal marriage/plural marriage];

JSJr as the burning fire that fuels all life;

JSJr as the maker and giver of useful gifts to man;

JSJr as the "One Mighty and Strong";

JSJr as the . . . you name it.

 

So easy to see how an actual person gets made, over centuries, into a g-d or demi-g-d.

 

He really does fit the pattern, doesn't he?

H. I. Bell and Cyrus Gordon said that the Stoics and other ancient sages saw Zeus, Jupiter, Amun, Re, Ahura (Mazda), Marduk, 'El, and Baal as one entity.  --H. I. Bell, Cults and Creeds in Graeco-Roman Egypt, 15,19,33; C. H. Gordon in Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th ed., Macropaedia, 12:917-920.

 

Syncretism can often blur the nuances, but what is truly extraordinary is that Joseph is born in a Jewish Sabbatical year, nearly dies of osteomyelitis and typhoid fever in his second Sabatical, had his First Vision in the third such Sabbatical, and his annual, equinoctial return to that particular hill "convenient to the village of Manchester" culminated on Saturday, September 22, 1827, by coinciding with the close of yet another (the fourth) Sabbatical Year on 1 Tishri of the floating Jewish calendar.  Not only was this Sabbath the regular Jewish (and ancient Canaanite) New Year, day of coronation (cf. Alma 51:34 - 52:1, 62:36-39), temple dedication (I Ki 8:2-66, II Chron 7:8-10; cf. Ex 40:2-38), and covenant renewal beginning the High Holy Days (Neh 8:1-18; Alma 28:4 - 30:2, 44:24 - 45:1,20), but it was also an anniversary of cosmic proportion: 1 Tishri was the traditional day of Creation of the World, the day of birth of Adam (and Jesus, the Second Adam), and the day of the accession of God to His Throne. 

 

And it doesn't end there:  The Mormon Exodus west takes place under Brigham in a Jewish Jubilee year (Sabbatical of Sabbaticals), who frankly places it in an Israelite Exodus context (D&C 136).  As Jan Shipps has noted, this was during an era of "sacred time."

[cinepro]

I think Taves model is the best secular theory, and it challenges anti-mormon thinking, but it is not the best theory.

Taves model assumes that Joseph Smith and the Witnesses imagined the golden plates and Moroni. Imagination happens all the time, imagination theory predicts that individuals see visions (imagination) many times, but Joseph Smith did not find other golden plates, the Book of Abraham Papyri did not become golden, and the Book of Mormon witnesses probably did not see angels and golden plates after they left the church. 

 

but it is still the best secular theory 

 

Well, her theory might also explain how the Kinderhook Plates became the writings of a descendant of Ham.  Until they changed back and weren't.

 

Ultimately I think the biggest problem for her theory is that the "challenge" wasn't a real one.  As long as alternate theories come from easily marginalized "anti-Mormons", there is little danger to a bifurcated approach to Book of Mormon origins.  If Taves presents the first in a series of successively more believable "natural" theories, it could be absolutely devastating to the Church's already shaky insistence on "faith" in everything The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith said.

Edited September 20, 2014 by cinepro

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, her theory might also explain how the Kinderhook Plates became the writings of a descendant of Ham.  Until they changed back and weren't.

 

Ultimately I think the biggest problem for her theory is that the "challenge" wasn't a real one.  As long as alternate theories come from easily marginalized "anti-Mormons", there is little danger to a bifurcated approach to Book of Mormon origins.  If Taves presents the first in a series of successively more believable "natural" theories, it could be absolutely devastating to the Church's already shaky insistence on "faith" in everything The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith said.

Vigorous assertion is no substitute for facts and evidence, cinepro.  Whether  we are considering DNA studies, or archeology, or some other potentially "devastating" natural theory of origin of Mormonism (which I consider to have arisen naturally anyhow), the actual arguments are thus far inadequate to silly claims of being "shaky" or only faith-based.

 

Mormonism is a way of life based on a monistic theology/philosophy which posits only natural sources and means for everything.  Literally.  The usual bifurcation of reality into natural and supernatural thus does not apply.  This is not something which is discussed in LDS Sunday School, but it remains true.  Mormonism and Humanism could be twins.

[MormonFreeThinker]

If Taves presents the first in a series of successively more believable "natural" theories, it could be absolutely devastating to the Church's already shaky insistence on "faith" in everything The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith said.

 

They are just theories, or explanations. Taves cannot prove her theory, we cannot prove that Joseph Smith did see Moroni. 

Taves theory only presents a danger to Fawn Brodie's con man theories.

[cinepro]

They are just theories, or explanations. Taves cannot prove her theory, we cannot prove that Joseph Smith did see Moroni. 

Taves theory only presents a danger to Fawn Brodie's con man theories.

 

A huge part of the argument for Joseph Smith is that he just couldn't have done it on his own.  Therefore, if he couldn't have done it on his own, it is logically proven that he had to have the help he said he did (including finding the ancient artifacts with divine help).  Anything that reduces this argument is a huge liability for defenders of the Church. 

 

Certainly, it won't cause the Church to lose all its members and close up shop, but there are no doubt many members who would be very disturbed if presented with a cogent argument that Joseph Smith might have been telling the "truth", while at the same time his stories aren't literally "true" in the way we've always been told they are.  It is very important to maintain the Prophet/Fraud dichotomy at all costs.

 

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

[Robert F. Smith]

........................................................

 It is very important to maintain the Prophet/Fraud dichotomy at all costs.

Would you say the same of the frequently maintained Messiah/Fraud dichotomy for Jesus?

See C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (Macmillan, 1960), 40-41.

[mfbukowski]

Vigorous assertion is no substitute for facts and evidence, cinepro.  Whether  we are considering DNA studies, or archeology, or some other potentially "devastating" natural theory of origin of Mormonism (which I consider to have arisen naturally anyhow), the actual arguments are thus far inadequate to silly claims of being "shaky" or only faith-based.

 

Mormonism is a way of life based on a monistic theology/philosophy which posits only natural sources and means for everything.  Literally.  The usual bifurcation of reality into natural and supernatural thus does not apply.  This is not something which is discussed in LDS Sunday School, but it remains true.  Mormonism and Humanism could be twins.

Bravissimo! 

 

I just discovered this thread. Vedddy intedesting...

[mfbukowski]

Interesting theory. I recall (somewhere, i'm sorry, i don't remember the page) in Rough Stone Rolling that the initial discovery of the plates or artifact was not considered especially astounding by many of those who had heard of it. It seems it was quite common for people in that time and place to come across all sorts of mysterious buried objects...one person even assumed that Joseph Smith had probably just come across a copper kettle or something similar.

 

That being the case, why would it be necessary for Joseph Smith to manufacture anything at all? Using Ann Taves' theory as a starting point, one could conjecture that Joseph Smith came across an object that, for all intents and purposes, suggested some kind of plate and then, through the medium of "skilled seeing" (revelation, if you will) perceived them to be the nephite plates of which he spoke.

 

For the record, I am not LDS. Nevertheless after much reading it does seem to me that Joseph Smith was quite sincere in what he claimed. Dr. Taves' theory provides an explanation which partially allows for that while at the same time explaining the whole matter in a naturalistic fashion. However, the idea of manufacturing plates which were later invested with a "numinous" quality runs counter to the narrative Joseph Smith provided and does suggest that, at some level, he fabricated part of the story. Were I LDS, i would be disturbed by such an assertion coming from someone seeking a middle ground.

 

If, as some believe, the Book of Abraham was "triggered" by the Egyptian papyrus (as opposed to being translated from it). Why couldn't some artifact, e.g. an indian artifact, trigger a revelation which was then written down as the Book of Mormon?

I haven't yet read the article, but indeed this was the first thing I thought as well. Joseph's "translations" were transformations of texts certainly in the inspired version of the bible, and I believe as well as the Book of Abraham. I am certain that he thought those were what he said they were, and I see in that process a parallel here for the transformation of the plates as well.

[mfbukowski]

I appreciate Taves' contribution, and will certainly keep it in mind as I continue researching the "problem" of the metalic artifact. I have a couple insights that i think would contribute to her theory. But based on my research thus far, I favor a different theory: Joseph Smith obtained/discovered masonic props (which could include the sword, u&t, breastplate, and compass). Similar to Joseph's misunderstanding of other artifacts that we have today (kinderhook plates and papyrus) he believed them to be what they were not. My proposal removes the fraud from the pious fraud theory, and interestingly even opens way for a catalyst view of his "translation" process.

Agree.

[mfbukowski]

Interesting:  Since Hephaestos is the Fire/Geburah Prototype, ironically 9(?) paired in his own person with the invalid archetype, and I have read of the connection made between Hephaestos in this aspect and Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrian worship, if JSJr can be tied successfully to Hephaestos and thence to Ahura Mazda, where does that lead us?

 

JSJr as husband of Venus [with his strong association with the marriage bed/eternal marriage/plural marriage];

JSJr as the burning fire that fuels all life;

JSJr as the maker and giver of useful gifts to man;

JSJr as the "One Mighty and Strong";

JSJr as the . . . you name it.

 

So easy to see how an actual person gets made, over centuries, into a g-d or demi-g-d.

 

He really does fit the pattern, doesn't he?

Amazing!

[Vance]

Joseph's "translations" were transformations of texts certainly in the inspired version of the bible, and I believe as well as the Book of Abraham. I am certain that he thought those were what he said they were, and I see in that process a parallel here for the transformation of the plates as well.

The problem is that the word "translate" means something slightly different today than it meant in the early 1800's. From the 1828 dictionary.

TRANSLA'TE, v. t. [L. translatus, from transfero; trans, over, and fero, to bear. ]1. To bear, carry or remove from one place to another. It is applied to the removal of a bishop from one see to another.

The bishop of Rochester, when the king would have translated him to a better bishoprick, refused.

2. To remove or convey to heaven, as a human being, without death.

By faith Enoch was translated, that he should not see death. Heb. 16.

3. To transfer; to convey from one to another. 2 Sam. 3.

4. To cause to remove from one part of the body to another; as, to translate a disease.

5. To change.

Happy is your grace,

That can translate the stubbornness of fortune

Into so quiet and so sweet a style.

translated TRANSLA'TED, pp. Conveyed from one place to another; removed to heaven without dying; rendered into another language.

Transformation is a reasonable replacement.

[mfbukowski]

The problem is that the word "translate" means something slightly different today than it meant in the early 1800's. From the 1828 dictionary.Transformation is a reasonable replacement.

Yes I think you are right, and this helps to illustrate the mental process happening here, which is not a common way of thinking today, at least here in the west. There are also examples in the authorship of ancient manuscripts, where a scribe might write something under the name of, and in the personna of another without a second thought that such an activity was unacceptable. We know of biblical examples of precisely this process.

I think to really understand Taves here an understanding of phenomenology and constructivist thought is essential.