Is The End Near? No! Follow The Money (Church Money)

[Tiki]

According to the other-other thread, monkeys are still evolving into humans to be preached to.

So the end will never happen.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Monkeys would love to hear about the gospel.

[The Nehor]

20-30 years is always the best guess. Any more than that, and you sound like you lack faith. Anything less, and even the other LDS will think you're the village idiot.

 

But I think it is 200-500 years away. Does that make me faithless?

[Nofear]

One of my favorite questions to ask stake patriarchs is whether or not their personal opinion about the timeline of the Second Coming has faced adjustment in the execution of their calling. So far the answer has come back as a consistent "yes" followed by suggestion that it is closer than they used to think.

[Avatar4321]

I think 20-30 years may be too far out. May be too soon as well. It's hard to tell.

 

Mormon lamented that the Nephites brought about their destruction in a relatively short amount of time. I see no reason to think we are somehow immune to the same things happening if we don't repent.

[cinepro]

But I think it is 200-500 years away. Does that make me faithless?

 

Go ahead and mention that in Gospel Doctrine the next time the subject comes up.  I guarantee you'll get protestations from other members in the class.

[cdowis]

But I think it is 200-500 years away. Does that make me faithless?

 

Not at all.  It merely means that you are young, and uninformed.

 

I try to tell my kids how things have changed in the past 50 years, and they are in disbelief.  "Dad, things have always been like that."

 

Elder Groberg observed how much the Christian church itself has changed over the decades.  I have seen the influence of the enemies of the church on the historic Christians, that they even deny that we believe in Christ.

 

Peggy Noonan, a social commentator, was dismayed to see the changes.  She overheard two women casually talking about having an abortion as if it they were going to the beauty parlor.  Having a child would interfere with her career, etc etc.

 

These things are happening at an accelerated rate, just as it did in the Book of Mormon.  In ten years, you will look back and see that we are now living in the "good old days" of relative peace and prosperity. We will see Christ's prophecy in the BOM fulfilled, 3 Ne 20: 15-16 and 21: beginning at verse 12.

Edited August 28, 2014 by cdowis

[cinepro]

One of my favorite questions to ask stake patriarchs is whether or not their personal opinion about the timeline of the Second Coming has faced adjustment in the execution of their calling. So far the answer has come back as a consistent "yes" followed by suggestion that it is closer than they used to think.

 

If the blessings given in the 1800's are indication,* I would suspect patriarchs have always traditionally thought it was closer than it really was.

 

*page 21

[Nofear]

If the blessings given in the 1800's are indication,* I would suspect patriarchs have always traditionally thought it was closer than it really was.

 

*page 21

 

I don't doubt that. What the article doesn't answer was whether or not preconceptions (e.g. about the timing) influenced the blessing or vice versa. My brief anecdotal experiences suggest the latter is true for at least some contemporary patriarchs. But it's anecdotal and should not be used for anything substantive. For that, one ought get their own inspiration on the matter.

[The Nehor]

Go ahead and mention that in Gospel Doctrine the next time the subject comes up.  I guarantee you'll get protestations from other members in the class.

 

I am a ward missionary so I am in Gospel Principles. About a third of the time I am teaching. Yep, they let me teach investigators and recent converts. Scary huh?

 

Not at all.  It merely means that you are young, and uninformed.

 

I try to tell my kids how things have changed in the past 50 years, and they are in disbelief.  "Dad, things have always been like that."

 

Elder Groberg observed how much the Christian church itself has changed over the decades.  I have seen the influence of the enemies of the church on the historic Christians, that they even deny that we believe in Christ.

 

Peggy Noonan, a social commentator, was dismayed to see the changes.  She overheard two women casually talking about having an abortion as if it they were going to the beauty parlor.  Having a child would interfere with her career, etc etc.

 

These things are happening at an accelerated rate, just as it did in the Book of Mormon.  In ten years, you will look back and see that we are now living in the "good old days" of relative peace and prosperity. We will see Christ's prophecy in the BOM fulfilled, 3 Ne 20: 15-16 and 21: beginning at verse 12.

 

Actually when I was "young and uninformed" I thought the Second Coming was imminent. Now I realize it "t'was ever thus". When my grandfather was alive I asked him what they taught him when he was young. He said it was the same. They were told the world was ripening in iniquity at an accelerating pace and that they were a chosen generation needing to be ready to meet their God....just like I was taught. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young talked about the wickedness in the world increasing.

 

Yeah, it's getting worse but so what? We do not know what rock bottom is or how long it will take to get there. The Savior told us that many would begin to despair thinking he would delay His coming until the "end of the world". I take this to mean that people think He will wait until the very last possible time because things are intolerable. I don't think things are intolerable. In fact with the exception of the fallout from California we are treated quite well. We are still being shielded so we can do missionary work. The missionaries haven't even been called home yet and there is no indication they are about to be. No, I think we are still in this for the long haul. I could be wrong and I will be pleasantly surprised if I am but I expect to be dead and buried before the Savior returns. President Packer seems to believe so too with his talk of the recent youth being around to spoil their grandchildren before the world ends.

 

And if I am dead it does mean I get a better seat for the Second Coming.

[DJBrown]

They say if you want to find answers you need to follow the money. I like to study about the last days and oftentimes when I do, I get a little scared. Yes it would be exciting to be alive when the Savior returns but nobody wants to go through the events leading up to that.

 

Reading different LDS blogs and message boards, it seems like a lot of people believe that some BIG event is right around the corner (economic collapse, WW3, TEOTWAWKI, etc. etc.) Although I do believe those things will happen eventually I don't think it will be anytime soon. Here's why:

 

We know that nobody knows the hour of the Saviors return. But if ANYONE knows the general time frame it would be the first presidency and the Q12. So let's assume that they did know that TEOTWAWKI was right around the corner. Would they have spent 2 billion dollars on giving SLC a facelift and rehabbing he Ogden temple, and other such projects, etc? I think not. If the end was that near they certainly wouldn't be wasting all that money on those things. It would be far better spent on other things. I do believe we are ramping up for the church to experience some big growth though (hastening the work) but I think we still have probably 20-30 years of general prosperity and it will be a time of building the kingdom, weeding out the weak hands, apostasy, and growing persecution and wickedness most likely. The world is wicked but not ripe for destruction...yet.

 

The economic indicators all point to a crash at some point but it's all relative. Yes 17 trillion in debt and 100% debt-to-GDP sounds ludicrous. But we all thought that when it was $5 trillion in debt. Who's to say we won't go to 100 trillion before it all implodes? I think the Fed and PTB have a lot more tricks up their sleeves to keep the house of cards propped up for many more years and it will provide a final window of opportunity for the work to hasten. If people are starving and killing each other and the world is too dangerous for missionaries then the work won't hasten very effectively.

 

Just my 2 cents. Opinions?

 

 

Three points:

 

1.  President Benson said (when he was the prophet) that the events of the 30 years preceding the coming of Christ to the Nephites was a model for the events that will occur prior to His second coming.  If you study that set of events in the BOM, you can recognize many things that are currently occurring now.

 

2.  President Hinckley stated in 2004 or so that the moral conditions of our day mirror those of Sodom and Gomorrah.  To me, that is a profound statement from a prophet of God.  How long do we think God allows a people to exist in that state of morality?  If the scriptures are any standard to go by- not very long.

 

3.  If we look at the last 40 years, we see an extremely clear and rapid decline in the state of the family in our society.  If we extrapolate into the future from this past 40 years, it doesn't look pretty.  It is not difficult to see how a state similar to that in which Mormon and Moroni lived could result from a generation or two of boys raised on pornography, MMA fighting, violent video games, and no fathers.

 

That being said, I am an optimist and believe President Hinckley, President Packer, and others who have stated that we have every reason to be hopeful and enthusiastic if we are keeping our covenants.  

Edited August 29, 2014 by DJBrown

[smac97]

They say if you want to find answers you need to follow the money. I like to study about the last days and oftentimes when I do, I get a little scared. Yes it would be exciting to be alive when the Savior returns but nobody wants to go through the events leading up to that.

 

Reading different LDS blogs and message boards, it seems like a lot of people believe that some BIG event is right around the corner (economic collapse, WW3, TEOTWAWKI, etc. etc.) Although I do believe those things will happen eventually I don't think it will be anytime soon. Here's why:

 

We know that nobody knows the hour of the Saviors return. But if ANYONE knows the general time frame it would be the first presidency and the Q12. So let's assume that they did know that TEOTWAWKI was right around the corner. Would they have spent 2 billion dollars on giving SLC a facelift and rehabbing he Ogden temple, and other such projects, etc? I think not.

The Nauvoo Temple was dedicated on May 1, 1846. Most of the Saints had left or were leaving Nauvoo by this point for Winter Quarters. That winter Brigham Young and other LDS leaders began planning the exodus to the West, and by April 1847, the first wagon train was leaving Winter Quarters. An arsonist set fire to the building on October 8, 1848, and on May 27, 1850 a tornado struck the building and toppled one of the four remaining walls.

The temple was used for sacred rites even while it was being constructed. Nevertheless, here we have God asking the Saints to put in years of labor, money, and sacrifice to construct the Nauvoo Temple, only to have it used for a very brief period of time, followed by its destruction via arson and natural calamity.

I believe that the Saints were inspired by God to build the Nauvoo Temple, even though the temple would not exist for long. This requires me to suspend expectations about the Lord's timing of events, about how He runs the show.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Avatar4321]

I am a ward missionary so I am in Gospel Principles. About a third of the time I am teaching. Yep, they let me teach investigators and recent converts. Scary huh?

 

 

Actually when I was "young and uninformed" I thought the Second Coming was imminent. Now I realize it "t'was ever thus". When my grandfather was alive I asked him what they taught him when he was young. He said it was the same. They were told the world was ripening in iniquity at an accelerating pace and that they were a chosen generation needing to be ready to meet their God....just like I was taught. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young talked about the wickedness in the world increasing.

 

Yeah, it's getting worse but so what? We do not know what rock bottom is or how long it will take to get there. The Savior told us that many would begin to despair thinking he would delay His coming until the "end of the world". I take this to mean that people think He will wait until the very last possible time because things are intolerable. I don't think things are intolerable. In fact with the exception of the fallout from California we are treated quite well. We are still being shielded so we can do missionary work. The missionaries haven't even been called home yet and there is no indication they are about to be. No, I think we are still in this for the long haul. I could be wrong and I will be pleasantly surprised if I am but I expect to be dead and buried before the Savior returns. President Packer seems to believe so too with his talk of the recent youth being around to spoil their grandchildren before the world ends.

 

And if I am dead it does mean I get a better seat for the Second Coming.

 

So you're the reason for the low retention rate?

 

I agree. the fact that missionaries havent been called home and more have been sent out is a good reason to suspect we have alittle time.

[ERayR]

So you're the reason for the low retention rate?

 

I agree. the fact that missionaries havent been called home and more have been sent out is a good reason to suspect we have alittle time.

 

What makes you think the missionaries will not be preaching the gospel to the very end?

[The Nehor]

What makes you think the missionaries will not be preaching the gospel to the very end?

 

Statements by Brigham Young that one day God will recall the missionaries and have them stop preaching sermons and that God would then preach his own sermons. God's sermons are less pleasant according to what Brigham said.

 

 

2.  President Hinckley stated in 2004 or so that the moral conditions of our day mirror those of Sodom and Gomorrah.  To me, that is a profound statement from a prophet of God.  How long do we think God allows a people to exist in that state of morality?  If the scriptures are any standard to go by- not very long.

 

He allows them to exist like that until the Saints are either withdrawn from their midst or (as is more often the case) they are driven out. Sodom would have been saved for 10. I can count over 50 in the city I live in and that is only counting members I know.

[cinepro]

Three points:

 

1.  President Benson said (when he was the prophet) that the events of the 30 years preceding the coming of Christ to the Nephites was a model for the events that will occur prior to His second coming.  If you study that set of events in the BOM, you can recognize many things that are currently occurring now.

 

2.  President Hinckley stated in 2004 or so that the moral conditions of our day mirror those of Sodom and Gomorrah.  To me, that is a profound statement from a prophet of God.  How long do we think God allows a people to exist in that state of morality?  If the scriptures are any standard to go by- not very long.

 

3.  If we look at the last 40 years, we see an extremely clear and rapid decline in the state of the family in our society.  If we extrapolate into the future from this past 40 years, it doesn't look pretty.  It is not difficult to see how a state similar to that in which Mormon and Moroni lived could result from a generation or two of boys raised on pornography, MMA fighting, violent video games, and no fathers.

 

That being said, I am an optimist and believe President Hinckley, President Packer, and others who have stated that we have every reason to be hopeful and enthusiastic if we are keeping our covenants.  

 

 

I'm sorry, but I think your (and possibly President Hinckley's) view on the "morality" of the world is totally messed up.  If you pick a few specific indicators (men looking at pictures of naked women, homosexuals getting married), then the world looks terrible. 

 

But if you look at the broader picture and factor in (what I would consider more substantive) factors such as social ns and attitudes towards women, children and minorities, a decrease in violence, the world as a whole is getting much much better. 

 

Obviously there are still individuals, cultures and countries that have a long way to go and do unspeakably evil things, but looking at the planet as a whole, I would say we are closer than we've ever been to "zion" in all of recorded human history.

[Guest]

They say if you want to find answers you need to follow the money. I like to study about the last days and oftentimes when I do, I get a little scared. Yes it would be exciting to be alive when the Savior returns but nobody wants to go through the events leading up to that.

 

Reading different LDS blogs and message boards, it seems like a lot of people believe that some BIG event is right around the corner (economic collapse, WW3, TEOTWAWKI, etc. etc.) Although I do believe those things will happen eventually I don't think it will be anytime soon. Here's why:

 

We know that nobody knows the hour of the Saviors return. But if ANYONE knows the general time frame it would be the first presidency and the Q12. So let's assume that they did know that TEOTWAWKI was right around the corner. Would they have spent 2 billion dollars on giving SLC a facelift and rehabbing he Ogden temple, and other such projects, etc? I think not. If the end was that near they certainly wouldn't be wasting all that money on those things. It would be far better spent on other things. I do believe we are ramping up for the church to experience some big growth though (hastening the work) but I think we still have probably 20-30 years of general prosperity and it will be a time of building the kingdom, weeding out the weak hands, apostasy, and growing persecution and wickedness most likely. The world is wicked but not ripe for destruction...yet.

 

The economic indicators all point to a crash at some point but it's all relative. Yes 17 trillion in debt and 100% debt-to-GDP sounds ludicrous. But we all thought that when it was $5 trillion in debt. Who's to say we won't go to 100 trillion before it all implodes? I think the Fed and PTB have a lot more tricks up their sleeves to keep the house of cards propped up for many more years and it will provide a final window of opportunity for the work to hasten. If people are starving and killing each other and the world is too dangerous for missionaries then the work won't hasten very effectively.

 

Just my 2 cents. Opinions?

There is a reason no one knows the day nor the hour (which btw includes even Jesus Christ himself) it is because with that information would mean ruin. It would lead to the very thing which scriptures warn against...procrastination. Great wisdom that the Father reserves this information to himself.

[Avatar4321]

What makes you think the missionaries will not be preaching the gospel to the very end?

 

The scriptures that say that at some point the Lord will call the missionaries home and preaching His own sermon.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'll probably be sleeping when it happens.

[Avatar4321]

I'll probably be sleeping when it happens.

 

Well wake the heck up. Break off the chains that bind you and sing praises to the Great King Immanuel who has redeemed the world.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'll try to wake up. I like to sleep in and I assume the 2nd coming will happen in the morning.

[Avatar4321]

I'll try to wake up. I like to sleep in and I assume the 2nd coming will happen in the morning.

 

It will. The Morning of the First Resurrection;)

[VideoGameJunkie]

Haha but is it morning American time since we all live in different time zones in the world.

[DJBrown]

I'm sorry, but I think your (and possibly President Hinckley's) view on the "morality" of the world is totally messed up.  If you pick a few specific indicators (men looking at pictures of naked women, homosexuals getting married), then the world looks terrible. 

 

But if you look at the broader picture and factor in (what I would consider more substantive) factors such as social ns and attitudes towards women, children and minorities, a decrease in violence, the world as a whole is getting much much better. 

 

Obviously there are still individuals, cultures and countries that have a long way to go and do unspeakably evil things, but looking at the planet as a whole, I would say we are closer than we've ever been to "zion" in all of recorded human history.

 

 

Really?  I suppose whether my (and Pres. Hinckley's) morality is messed up or not depends upon which direction one's moral compass is pointing.  After all, one could argue that it is perfectly moral for consenting adults to engage in whatever sexual activity they desire as long as they are "consenting."  That includes prostitution.  And we see in society that our moral compass (speaking of society at large) is changing over time significantly.  

 

If we accept the moral compass that is taught by the church as the context in which we define morality, then the world's moral environment is "messed up."  

 

The majority of children born to women 30 and under are born out of wedlock.  Over 70% of African American children are born out of wedlock.  That is a big change from the past.  Unless you believe it is not necessary for children to born in wedlock, this is extremely alarming.  

 

How does society today view women?  You suggest that our view of women has improved significantly.  I suggest you take a look at the half-time show of the Super Bowl or the performances at the VMAs to see how society views women.  It is really not a pretty picture when you see how women are viewed by all too many people in today's world.

 

Are women really treated better today?  Are husbands more loyal to their wives today than 50 years ago?  

 

What is "zion?"  Is it not "the pure in heart?"  Do you really think the world is closer to being "pure in heart" than in the recent past (200-300 years)?  

 

Do you have teenagers in high school?  I do.  And I can tell you that where we live, the moral environment they live in is exponentially more polluted than the one I grew up in.  

[cinepro]

 

Do you have teenagers in high school?  I do.  And I can tell you that where we live, the moral environment they live in is exponentially more polluted than the one I grew up in.  

 

"Morality" is about more than sex.  And it's about more than the lives of white, middle class Americans.

 

I know my daughters have more opportunity and choices and freedoms in their lives than any other women in the history of the world.  I know the minorities (whether a minority by race, religion or sexual preference) at their high school also have more choices and freedoms than "minorities" have had than any other time in the history of the world.  I know that all the kids in the high school are much less likely to be victims of violence, hunger or disease, or die from violence, hunger or disease, than children in any other society in the history of the world.

 

Yes, the kids at school use bad language and have too much sex.  If that's the yardstick by which you measure "morality", then so be it.  And I too wish those aspects of their environment were better.  But there are far more important things to consider, and at no other time in the history of the world have so many different cultures done so well in so many different ways.

Edited August 29, 2014 by cinepro