thesometimesaint Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 There is no edge of the universe. Even in cosmologies that are closed, it simply wraps around (kind of like walking around the globe East... what happens when you get to the "edge"... well, you don't). As far as we know, however, the universe is infinitely expansive. Anyway, cosmological horizons require a bit more care as to specifically what one is talking about. For example, our current particle horizon approaches some 50 Gly. But how does that work when the observable universe is only some 13.8 Gyr old? It does work, but one needs to know what is being talked about. My experience is most lay people really don't understand it. All ready said that. I was making the point the discussion is very old. I don't pretend to know all the math involved. So tend to go with the latest advance I read about.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 So this is how I understood the question...If progression is eternal (never stops) are we in reality progressing? it seems there would be a never reachable goal always out in the distance. Isn't it great to have something to work at?
thesometimesaint Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Into the abyss? Space is not finite as far as we know. I hesitate to say there is anywhere for it to go to.SEE Multiversehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2698010/Are-living-multiverse-Researchers-claim-universe-one-bubble-frothy-sea-bubbles.html
Nofear Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 That still doesn't answer the question: What surrounds the globe? The correct answer is "no". The question is not well posed. All ready said that. I was making the point the discussion is very old. I don't pretend to know all the math involved. So tend to go with the latest advance I read about. You're much, much better than most. I was mostly speaking about others. For whatever reason cosmology just doesn't come to people naturally, not at all.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Space is not finite as far as we know. I hesitate to say there is anywhere for it to go to.SEE Multiversehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2698010/Are-living-multiverse-Researchers-claim-universe-one-bubble-frothy-sea-bubbles.html That is the trouble. When one attempts to describe infinity one soon finds that the only terms we have are for finite concepts and are wholly inadequate.
thesometimesaint Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 That is the trouble. When one attempts to describe infinity one soon finds that the only terms we have are for finite concepts and are wholly inadequate. Someday I do hope to understand it. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Isn't it great to have something to work at?OK
MormonFreeThinker Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I have taught a number of math classes on the university level, including calculus and differential equations. So you should know more Calculus than me, you are a professor. Please tell me, how do you reach infinity? When will you reach infinity? If you add 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 ... to infinity, the series converges to 1, but you need to add an infinite number of fractions for the series to converge to 1, when will you reach an infinite amount of fractions? Please explain professor, I will be extremely glad if you have an explanation, I really do want an answer. ..
ksfisher Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) When we are given the HG at our confirmation, doesn't the prayer say the HG to be with you? Or does it say within you? I was always told the HG will leave if I'm doing wrong. It can't leave if it's within you right?Refresh my memory PH holders, what is the prayer you give to confirm a new member? Maybe the answer lies in there. But whatever you think, my gut tells me the HG is the Holy Spirit, Jesus. Edit: Oops, wrong topic, sorry I'll move it!! 20.3.10Instructions for Performing a ConfirmationUnder the direction of the bishopric, one or more Melchizedek Priesthood holders may participate in a confirmation. They place their hands lightly on the person’s head. Then the person who performs the ordinance: States the person’s full name. States that the ordinance is performed by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood.. Confirms the person a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Uses the words “Receive the Holy Ghost” (not “receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”). Gives words of blessing as the Spirit directs. Closes in the name of Jesus Christ. Edited July 21, 2014 by ksfisher 1
thesometimesaint Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) When we are given the HG at our confirmation, doesn't the prayer say the HG to be with you? Or does it say within you? I was always told the HG will leave if I'm doing wrong. It can't leave if it's within you right?Refresh my memory PH holders, what is the prayer you give to confirm a new member? Maybe the answer lies in there. But whatever you think, my gut tells me the HG is the Holy Spirit, Jesus. Edit: Oops, wrong topic, sorry I'll move it!! The admonition in the Confirmation Prayer is to "receive the Holy Ghost". The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead. Edited July 21, 2014 by thesometimesaint
ERayR Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 When we are given the HG at our confirmation, doesn't the prayer say the HG to be with you? Or does it say within you? I was always told the HG will leave if I'm doing wrong. It can't leave if it's within you right?Refresh my memory PH holders, what is the prayer you give to confirm a new member? Maybe the answer lies in there. But whatever you think, my gut tells me the HG is the Holy Spirit, Jesus..The wording is "Receive Ye the Ho;y Ghost". Then your gut would be wrong. There are three members of the Godhead, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. The Church's first article of faith states, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” These three beings make up the Godhead. They preside over this world and all other creations of our Father in Heaven. https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/topics/holy-ghost?lang=eng
Ahab Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 That is the trouble. When one attempts to describe infinity one soon finds that the only terms we have are for finite concepts and are wholly inadequate.I think it's easier to understand than most people realize. We just can't see any examples of it if we're looking for a beginning or end because anything infinite doesn't have one of those, although we can see a beginning or end to certain stages of an infinite object. 1
ERayR Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 I think it's easier to understand than most people realize. We just can't see any examples of it if we're looking for a beginning or end because anything infinite doesn't have one of those, although we can see a beginning or end to certain stages of an infinite object. Understanding is one thing but comprehension of its vastness becomes a problem for some.
MormonFreeThinker Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Understanding is one thing but comprehension of its vastness becomes a problem for some. I know think he knows the paradoxes
Rob Osborn Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Discussions on infinity are pretty much useless. For example- there is no possible way to comprehend or view something infinite. If we were to look back into eternity counting all of the events that have occurred we would always find that no matter how far we traced back the history of the past, those points would always only be of a finite value in relation to the present. The same thing goes for events that lay in our future. From this point in the present, no point in the future would ever reach an infinite value, all events in the future could be measured to a finite exact value from right now no matter how far into the future we went. This tells us that it is impossible to ever reach an infinite value in the future even though we continue on forever. Thus said, the past also remains the same with countability. It is not possible to ever reach a point in the past that is of infinite value away from the present. We can apply this to a multitude of things like memories- We will never have an infinite amount of memories. It will always be of a finite value even though that finite value grows larger everyday and will so forever and ever. What really bothers me is when we start comparing infinities. This philosophy is useless. There is no such thing as an infinite set of something. The word "set" is only of a finite value. It is thus a contradiction to couple the two words together. Something having an infinite value cannot be larger or samller than another thing also having infinite value. You cannot measure infinities. You can only measure finite things. Measurements in infinite things have no meaning because you never approach nor leave the point of absolute zero in relationship to its endless potential.
MormonFreeThinker Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Discussions on infinity are pretty much useless. No they are not, we are exploring mysteries. We are trying to understand the problem, and trying to find a good answer. Measurements in infinite things have no meaning because you never approach nor leave the point of absolute zero in relationship to its endless potential. We are also talking about Calculus, it is useful and fun. Calculus deals with infinities. In my opinion, pointless discussions are about Dehlin or Sandra Tanner, and speculations that are not useful. Seriously, why do people care about what Dehlin thinks, and why do people want to know if Sandra joined mormonstories. Scientist are also trying to find answers, see 22:00 Edited July 21, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
wenglund Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 So we know from the scriptures that matter and intelligence had no beginning. We've always existed albeit in a different form than we do now. So the question is how did we ever arrive here? If we've "always" existed then that means we've "always" been traveling toward where we are now. If you are always traveling toward something then you are never arriving. It's like that problem of moving toward the wall half way each time. If you are always moving toward the wall but you only go half the distance each time will you ever hit the wall? The answer is no...you won't. You can't ever hit it if you only go half way each time. Likewise, an entity with no beginning cannot say that "someday" he'll be organized into something different because someday cannot exist if you are always only heading toward that. Thoughts? One way to address the philosophical problems of eternity/infinity like what you suggest is to first recognize that it is purely a philosophical problem which has little or no bearing on or meaning within the non-philosophical world. After all, while philosopher's may be rendered immobile at the thought of the infinite divisible space between him or herself and the wall, infants can easily, and without much thought, crawl across the short distance and actually reach the wall. To the babes, the philosophical infinite divisibility of space has no bearing on whether they can reach reach the wall. They can and do regardless whether philosophers think it possible or not. Who, then, is the wiser? Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
Zeta-Flux Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) What really bothers me is when we start comparing infinities. This philosophy is useless. There is no such thing as an infinite set of something. The word "set" is only of a finite value. It is thus a contradiction to couple the two words together. Something having an infinite value cannot be larger or samller than another thing also having infinite value. You cannot measure infinities. You can only measure finite things. Measurements in infinite things have no meaning because you never approach nor leave the point of absolute zero in relationship to its endless potential.Rob, you may not be aware of this, but comparing infinities is not philosophy, it is a central part of mathematics. There are those who, apparently like you, only believe in a finitary universe. They believe there is no such thing as an infinite set like {1,2,3,4,...}. But such people are VERY few. I personally find infinity not that confusing, once you've taken a few college math classes. Edited July 21, 2014 by Zeta-Flux 1
Ahab Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Measurements in infinite things have no meaning because you never approach nor leave the point of absolute zero in relationship to its endless potential.Not sure what you mean by that, and I see some value and meaning in measuring infinite things. Like time, for example. There will always be some value in taking and using measurements of time even though time itself never began or will end. There is always be an event both before and after another event but I can still set a timer when I'm baking or cooking something to remind me to check it to see if it's done.
Rob Osborn Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 No they are not, we are exploring mysteries. We are trying to understand the problem, and trying to find a good answer. We are also talking about Calculus, it is useful and fun. Calculus deals with infinities. In my opinion, pointless discussions are about Dehlin, and speculations that are not useful. Scientist are also trying to find answers, see 22:00 It is of interest to know the size of things like the universe. The problem is however that if it is possible that the universe does go on forever we will nor cannot ever know it. We could continue to measure space and count things within that space and even do this task endlessly into the future but we will never approach the point of knowing it in its entirety because that does not exist. What we can only ever know is that we are a part of something that appears to be never ending. I like to give the analogy of memories because its something we can relate to. We will go on forever but at no point will we have an infinite amount of memories. If we were to thus then apply individual memories to places we know in the universe we would find out the stark reality of the problem- there never comes a point at anytime in the future where we would have a memory or place in our minds for an infinite number of places (an infinite knowable universe). Thus we can see that all we can ever know (stored as knowledge/memories) is only of that which is of finite value. This is why in the scriptures God speaks of have an inumerable amount of things from our perspective but from his he knows all of them and he can count them. The valued lesson here is that even for God all that he knows is numbered and continue to increase in number all the time but never is there a point where he knows an infinite number of things. They are inumerable to us because we have not the technology to see and count them. Our telescopes are not powerful enough neither are our microscopes powerful enough to see even the tiniest of subatomic particles. Thus, in our mortal frames they must be inumerable but for God they are all countable. Infinity is a way of just saying something is endless. The moment we try to place value or measurements within that paradigm it all becomes rather useless.
Rob Osborn Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Rob, you may not be aware of this, but comparing infinities is not philosophy, it is a central part of mathematics. There are those who, apparently like you, only believe in a finitary universe. They believe there is no such thing as an infinite set like {1,2,3,4,...}. But such people are VERY few. I personally find infinity not that confusing, once you've taken a few college math classes. Its not hard to prove even with mathematics that you cannot compare the size or numerical value of two different sets of infinities. It doesnt exist. There is no such thing as an infinte set of something smaller or larger than another infinte set of somethings.
Rob Osborn Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 Not sure what you mean by that, and I see some value and meaning in measuring infinite things. Like time, for example. There will always be some value in taking and using measurements of time even though time itself never began or will end. There is always be an event both before and after another event but I can still set a timer when I'm baking or cooking something to remind me to check it to see if it's done. Everything we measure or place numerical value on is always done within a finite set of value. Thats my point. When you try to apply this same measurement against anything infinite in theory it becomes useless because a finite value means nothing if comparing it to something that is neverending. It reminds me of the stupid Dilbert Hotel Paradox where you have a hotel with an infinite set of rooms but all become full and then someone else shows up and so you just switch occupant #1 to room #2 to make room and so on forever. The stupid thing here is that it breaks its own principle of logic because there is no such thing as something of infinite space being made full. Thats like saying a finite number of things can fill an endless amount of space. The stupid paradox is only a paradox to the dumb and blind for not understanding basic logic.
Ahab Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 It is of interest to know the size of things like the universe. The problem is however that if it is possible that the universe does go on forever we will nor cannot ever know it. We could continue to measure space and count things within that space and even do this task endlessly into the future but we will never approach the point of knowing it in its entirety because that does not exist. What we can only ever know is that we are a part of something that appears to be never ending. I like to give the analogy of memories because its something we can relate to. We will go on forever but at no point will we have an infinite amount of memories. If we were to thus then apply individual memories to places we know in the universe we would find out the stark reality of the problem- there never comes a point at anytime in the future where we would have a memory or place in our minds for an infinite number of places (an infinite knowable universe). Thus we can see that all we can ever know (stored as knowledge/memories) is only of that which is of finite value. This is why in the scriptures God speaks of have an inumerable amount of things from our perspective but from his he knows all of them and he can count them. The valued lesson here is that even for God all that he knows is numbered and continue to increase in number all the time but never is there a point where he knows an infinite number of things. They are inumerable to us because we have not the technology to see and count them. Our telescopes are not powerful enough neither are our microscopes powerful enough to see even the tiniest of subatomic particles. Thus, in our mortal frames they must be inumerable but for God they are all countable.Infinity is a way of just saying something is endless. The moment we try to place value or measurements within that paradigm it all becomes rather useless.Consider having some way to know and keep track of everything you have ever done since the moment you were born as a child of our Father in heaven, along with everything you will do from the present into the future, and then you will have some idea of how our Father can know how many planets he has created and how many children he has and everything else that he knows, while also knowing that he never had an ultimate beginning because he was a part of his parents and what they did before he was born.
ERayR Posted July 21, 2014 Posted July 21, 2014 No they are not, we are exploring mysteries. We are trying to understand the problem, and trying to find a good answer. Seriously, why do people care about what Dehlin thinks, and why do people want to know if Sandra joined mormonstories. One might rephrase the question like this: "Seriously, why do people care about what Dehlin MormonFreeThinker thinks, and why do people want to know if Sandra joined mormonstories".
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