No Beginning? How Did We Ever Arrive Here Then?

[Ahab]

Rob, I think everyone agrees with you, you can't count infinity because it never ends, you will never reach it.

I think you are missing the point, you can use infinities to do math.

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8+ 1/ 16 ... to infinity = 1, that is Calculus.

The limit of 1/x as x approaches infinity, the answer is 0.

You can use an infinite amount of rectangles to find the exact area under a curve.

Calculus is science, and Elder Oaks said, "Latter-day Saints believe in applying the best available scientific knowledge and techniques"

Astronomers use Calculus to study the universe, Elder Richard Scott said, "We can see the scientific method has brought about an extraordinary expansion of our understanding as the Lord has inspired gifted men"

No, it's not 1. The sum will get very, very close to 1 and when rounding up you can call it 1 but the total will never be 1.

[Ahab]

Do you believe in the Big Bang Theory?

No. I believe there may have been a big bang but even if there was that wouldn't mean what some people think there was and is as a result of the big bang.

[thesometimesaint]

No. I believe there may have been a big bang but even if there was that wouldn't mean what some people think there was and is as a result of the big bang.

 

All the Big Bang theory says is that our universe is bigger now than it was in the past.

[Rob Osborn]

Okay now you're just not thinking clearly, or at least not when you said that.

Consider how there are an infinite number of persons who are the kind of being our Father is, and also an infinite number of chickens.

At full maturity, our Father is bigger in size than a chicken.

What?

[ERayR]

Okay now you're just not thinking clearly, or at least not when you said that.

Consider how there are an infinite number of persons who are the kind of being our Father is, and also an infinite number of chickens.

At full maturity, our Father is bigger in size than a chicken.

 

You might also want to consider that your belt size is infinite.  I have seen some really big people but . . .   It gets ridiculous when you start messing with definitions.

[Rob Osborn]

Imagine if you will that you came to a road on a planet of infinite size and there were two paths running parallel to each other and God said "each path leads to many great places and there is no end to either path, they are infinite in length- they go on forever, but, one pathg is still longer than the other". This obviously is a false statement if it is true that there is no end to either path. In order for one to be a smaller path it would have to be finite.

[MormonFreeThinker]

No, it's not 1. The sum will get very, very close to 1 and when rounding up you can call it 1 but the total will never be 1.

 

It is 1, the sum will get very close to 1 when you add a finite number of fractions, but if you add an infinite number of fractions the sum is equal to 1, that is Calculus. 

 

 

No. I believe there may have been a big bang but even if there was that wouldn't mean what some people think there was and is as a result of the big bang.

 

The Big Bang did happen, the scientific evidence is strong. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Ahab]

You might also want to consider that your belt size is infinite. I have seen some really big people but . . . It gets ridiculous when you start messing with definitions.

Why would I ever want to consider having a belt of infinite size? It would be a waste of my time to think anyone could make such a belt and a waste of their time to try.

[Ahab]

What?

What what? What part did you not understand?

[Ahab]

It is 1, the sum will get very close to 1 when you add a finite number of fractions, but if you add an infinite number of fractions the sum is equal to 1, that is Calculus.

If that is calculus then calculus is wrong but I think it's more likely that that is not calculus.

The Big Bang did happen, the scientific evidence is strong.

I think you may need to re-read what I said.

[Rob Osborn]

What what? What part did you not understand?

the whole thing- the children, the chickens, etc.

[ERayR]

Why would I ever want to consider having a belt of infinite size? It would be a waste of my time to think anyone could make such a belt and a waste of their time to try.

 

I agree.  Mine is close enough as it is.  I was just using some of that math logic.  Circle you know.

[Ahab]

Just making clear that there is no such a thing as one infinity being dmaller or larger than another infinity.

People are usually referring to infinite objects rather than trying to redefine the word infinite.

Consider the idea that there are various things that are infinite, meaning there is no beginning or end to the number of those things that are infinite, with some of those infinite things being bigger than some other infinite things.

Like some infinite things that are composed of a finite number of material elements, each, say for example 1000 basic material elements in each one of those things, while some other infinite things are composed of 100,000,000 basic material elements, each. You could go on making more and more of each infinite thing, if you knew what it took and could make at least 1 and you had an infinite amount of time to do it, but the infinite things with more basic elements would always be bigger in size than the infinite number of things with less parts.

[MormonFreeThinker]

If that is calculus then calculus is wrong but I think it's more likely that that is not calculus.

I think you may need to re-read what I said.

 

You said "The sum will get very, very close to 1 and when rounding up you can call it 1"

That is true when you add a finite number of fractions, for example

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 =  35/40 or 0.875, that is very close to 1, but it is not 1.  

 

But if you add an infinite number of fractions

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 ... to INFINITY = 1

 

That is Calculus, you need to study Calculus

http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Ron-Larson/dp/1285057090

Edited July 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Ahab]

You said "The sum will get very, very close to 1 and when rounding up you can call it 1"

That is true when you add a finite number of fractions, for example

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 = 35/40 or 0.875, that is very close to 1, but it is not 1.

But if you add an infinite number of fractions

1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 ... to INFINITY = 1

That is Calculus, you need to study Calculus

http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Ron-Larson/dp/1285057090

Whether it's something called calculus or not it's still wrong. Common sense will tell you that much because the amount you would need to add to make it 1 would never come by just doubling the denominator.

Kinda like how pi can never be 4, but will always be between 3 and 4.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Whether it's something called calculus or not it's still wrong. Common sense will tell you that much because the amount you would need to add to make it 1 would never come by just doubling the denominator.

Kinda like how pi can never be 4, but will always be between 3 and 4.

 

You cannot reach infinity, but I am not trying to reach infinity, I a simply using infinity. You use infinities in Calculus to get answers. 

 

See the video 18:45 to 22:00, it's an MIT course 

He uses a similar example

1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 ... to INFINITY = 2 

 

 

"Kinda like how pi can never be 4, but will always be between 3 and 4."

But you are not adding anything in PI, PI is an irrational number. 

 

"Common sense will tell you"

You cannot always use common sense when you are searching for answers. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[MDalby]

I don't think this is a concept that we can fully understand in mortality.  Due to our limited vision, we think there has to be a beginning somewhere, but why does that need to be the case?  Why does there need to be a beginning.  I have a better ability to understand there is no end.  If I can believe that there is no end, why does there have to be a beginning?  Why isn't it possible that this plan of salvation is the same plan of salvation that has been in existence, ALWAYS.  Why isn't it possible that that there is no end in sight, in either direction of the Gods and their creations?

 

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:25)

[ERayR]

You cannot always use common sense when you are searching for answers. 

 

No thanks I have seen and can see what suspending common sense leads to.

[MormonFreeThinker]

No thanks I have seen and can see what suspending common sense leads to.

 

In ancient times when people used their "common sense" about the Earth, they concluded that the Earth was flat.  

 

You said you took Calculus courses, so you should agree with me,

but Ahab doesn't believe that 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 ... to infinity = 1, because his common sense doesn't tell him that.

Do you agree with me on the Calculus? 

Edited July 23, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Rob Osborn]

People are usually referring to infinite objects rather than trying to redefine the word infinite.

Consider the idea that there are various things that are infinite, meaning there is no beginning or end to the number of those things that are infinite, with some of those infinite things being bigger than some other infinite things.

Like some infinite things that are composed of a finite number of material elements, each, say for example 1000 basic material elements in each one of those things, while some other infinite things are composed of 100,000,000 basic material elements, each. You could go on making more and more of each infinite thing, if you knew what it took and could make at least 1 and you had an infinite amount of time to do it, but the infinite things with more basic elements would always be bigger in size than the infinite number of things with less parts.

It depends though on what you are counting. With counting something infinite you cannot have an end to its count therefore there is nothing else also infinite whichis bigger. As I brought up before, you could take two circles on paper one twice as big as the other and show that each surface cotain the same exact infinite amount of points within it

[mfbukowski]

Rob,

 

Here is a question to start getting us on the same page (and please, if you want to have a conversation, drop the "stupids", etc...).

 

Is the decimal expansion of the number pi=3.1415926535... infinite?

 

Cheers,

Pace

The meaning of words relies on their context.

 

The religious context and meaning of words is different than your usage.  It is as if you are speaking Chinese and they are speaking Andalusian Spanish.

 

You could debate this point til doomsday and never agree on the answer, for these reasons.

[Nofear]

[wenglund]

For the same reason the cardinality of odd integers is the same as the cardinality of all integers (both even and odd). The Ted ed video that I linked may help.

 

Why are you assuming that my meaning of "bigger" is in terms of the quantity of cardinal numbers rather than in terms of the dimension(s) of space over which certain "infinities" may be arrayed?

 

Even in terms of cardnality, logic would suggests that if 2 is "bigger" than 1, then the combined total of 2 infinite lines is bigger than 1.

 

The point being, there are various ways, besides calculus, to rationally conceptualize "bigger" infinities.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Nofear]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality
 
I've made no appeal to calculus as did MormonFreeThinker. While he was correct, it is also not necessary.
 

Even in terms of cardnality, logic would suggests that if 2 is "bigger" than 1, then the combined total of 2 infinite lines is bigger than 1.

 

Incorrect. ∞ + 1 = ∞, ∞ + ∞ = ∞. The size/cardinality of all the sets are the same (be it ℵ₀ or ℵ₁ or ℵ₈₇ or whatever). Part of the reason that infinite sets was so problematic and late coming to mathematicians is that the arithmetic of infinite sets is not the same as the arithmetic of finite sets.

[Ahab]

It depends though on what you are counting. With counting something infinite you cannot have an end to its count therefore there is nothing else also infinite whichis bigger. As I brought up before, you could take two circles on paper one twice as big as the other and show that each surface cotain the same exact infinite amount of points within it

And as I was saying, infinite things aren't necessarily the same size as other infinite things. The things are what I am talking about measuring, and I am talking about different kinds of infinite things.

Say, for example, that chickens are infinite, with no beginning or end to the number of chickens there are and have been. There have always been fully grown chickens and there also always have been chicken eggs and every other thing related to chickens.

Now think about how those infinite things are and always have been different sizes, with fully grown chickens being bigger than their own chicken eggs. And while you're comparing sizes, also think about how we are bigger, at full size, than fully grown chickens, even though all of us and those things are eternal.