katherine the great Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 That is how I think it should be as long as those involved are still alive. Just out of curiosity, why only until their death? Shouldn't their descendants' feeling be considered? I don't think I would want a beloved Aunt Bertha's dirty laundry being made public as a result of a supposedly confidential confession. If she records it in a journal and chooses to pass that down to posterity, that's an entirely different matter.
rongo Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 I don't think it's a common occurrence at all for disciplinary council notes/transcripts to surface. Could it conceivably happen, hypothetically? Sure. But, the men who safeguard them do a very good job of it, and are keenly aware of the potential for disaster if confidences are violated or breached. 1
katherine the great Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 My impression is that in very many -- if not most -- cases, they are all too aware of the pain involved but are willing to endure it because the burden of sin grows unbearable.It could be compared to the suffering attendant to surgery or physical therapy. You endure the pain and discomfort and trust the practitioners as a tradeoff for being rid of the malady. Certainly that is the immediate cause for a confession. But do most members know that their confession can become part of their permanent record? Or do you mean that they would accept that as part of the repentance process without knowing it up front?
Duncan Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Certainly that is the immediate cause for a confession. But do most members know that their confession can become part of their permanent record? Or do you mean that they would accept that as part of the repentance process without knowing it up front? now you've peeked my curiousity, i'm going to check with my bro. about what is on your membership record
katherine the great Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 I don't think it's a common occurrence at all for disciplinary council notes/transcripts to surface. Could it conceivably happen, hypothetically? Sure. But, the men who safeguard them do a very good job of it, and are keenly aware of the potential for disaster if confidences are violated or breached.. For the first generation or two of leaders I think that's a fair statement. I'm not sure if I agree that with time passed they would be so diligent. I don't understand the importance of keeping such records on file at all. I think the risks outweigh any possible benefits. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Certainly that is the immediate cause for a confession. But do most members know that their confession can become part of their permanent record? Or do you mean that they would accept that as part of the repentance process without knowing it up front?Whether or not they know it "up front," I should think one who understood the gravity of his own serious sin would accept that among other necessary conditions in order to receive the cleansing power of forgiveness that is part and parcel of Church disciplinary procedure. In short, if I were seeking forgiveness from the Lord or His authorized servants, I would not be inclined to place conditions upon my repentance. 2
katherine the great Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 now you've peeked my curiousity, i'm going to check with my bro. about what is on your membership record Haha! Knock yourself out! (You will be disappointed. ).
katherine the great Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Whether or not they know it "up front," I should think one who understood the gravity of his own serious sin would accept that among other necessary conditions in order to receive the cleansing power of forgiveness that is part and parcel of Church disciplinary procedure.In short, if I were seeking forgiveness from the Lord or His authorized servants, I would not be inclined to place conditions upon my repentance. I guess there is no way to know for sure. I can only say that from what I know about human nature, if I were to find myself in such a situation I would want my confession to be confidential and certainly not written down and filed away. 1
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) So apparently after one is ex'd and re-baptized their slates aren't wiped clean? Since there is a record of the details etc? Then child sex offenders who are ex'd and re-baptized should in no way be called into positions working with children. Ok, end of skurting the conversation. Edited July 8, 2014 by Tacenda
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) I guess there is no way to know for sure. I can only say that from what I know about human nature, if I were to find myself in such a situation I would want my confession to be confidential and certainly not written down and filed away.I can state with certainty that repentance -- any repentance -- ought to be unconditional where the Lord or His servants are concerned. Edited July 8, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Duncan Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 So apparently after one is ex'd and re-baptized their slates aren't wiped clean? Since there is a record of the details etc? Then child sex offenders who are ex'd are re-baptized should in no way be called into positions working with children. Ok, end of skurting the conversation. if you were involved with kids then no, your record isn't clean. The amount of people who come back to the Church after being excommunicated is low. There is a record of your court in SLC but if you come back then your record is clean, but anything to do with kids then no
thesometimesaint Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Just out of curiosity, why only until their death? Shouldn't their descendants' feeling be considered? I don't think I would want a beloved Aunt Bertha's dirty laundry being made public as a result of a supposedly confidential confession. If she records it in a journal and chooses to pass that down to posterity, that's an entirely different matter. I think all us of have some ancestor that has done something wrong that we'd not like to be made public. But outside of a few history majors few care. If Aunt Bertha was a royal pain in the patoot died, and 100 years later her victims were also dead. I don't care if the particulars are released.
Duncan Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 I guess there is no way to know for sure. I can only say that from what I know about human nature, if I were to find myself in such a situation I would want my confession to be confidential and certainly not written down and filed away. this is the email I got from my. bro-about any record of any confession to the Bishop that doesn't merit discipline or even not taking the sacrament "Not that I know of. If something is just between you and the Bishop, it wouldn’t show up. Someone told me once years ago that if you came home early from your mission (without good reason), it got noted, but I have never seen that or even looked for it. That might not be done any more."
katherine the great Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 I can state with certainty that repentance -- any repentance -- ought to be unconditional where the Lord or His servants are concerned. That is one way of looking at it.
rongo Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Tacenda: Not only are church records annotated (which means there is a prominent note on the bottom of the record that instructs priesthood leaders to call Lake concerning this member) for people who commit sexual abuse, but new bishops receive a list of all people in the ward who are excommunicated, disfellowshipped, or have annotated records. Any new records that move into a ward with disciplinary history also trigger a letter from Salt Lake, and leaders can then order the minutes/transcripts. We had a brother in our ward that I knew had been excommunicated and re-baptized, but did not realize had an annotated record until I became his bishop. It was a simple matter to make sure he was never called into Primary or Young Men's, without saying anything to anybody. There is no reason for a bishop to have anyone with a bad past with children serve in callings that put them in contact with children.
rongo Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Interestingly, those who receive mission calls but never serve (like girls who get married before going or people who are disciplined and end up not going) still show that they served a mission, and where, on their records. This has led to some interesting discussions with people, when asked about their missions (we have had activities where RMs in the ward did displays of their missions, with food, and we contacted all of the RMs to invite them to participate).
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 Interestingly, those who receive mission calls but never serve (like girls who get married before going or people who are disciplined and end up not going) still show that they served a mission, and where, on their records. This has led to some interesting discussions with people, when asked about their missions (we have had activities where RMs in the ward did displays of their missions, with food, and we contacted all of the RMs to invite them to participate).Sounds like an oversight -- perhaps on the part of the ward clerk.
rongo Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 It isn't. The ward clerk plays no role in recording one's mission assignment. It is simply a part of one's membership record. When we moved into a new ward 12 years ago, the first thing the bishop said to me was, "So, you served in Germany, huh?" I think it's neat that that is one of the items in the membership record.
Guest Posted July 8, 2014 Posted July 8, 2014 All I can say about....having had to sit through a few of the actions in my callings. It is gut wrenching and painful for all involved, and never in my whole life were my prayers for inspiration more sincere!
name Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Should they be done away with? -Allen Hi Allen, Yes, without question, they should be done away with! Under no circumstance - ever - should a group of human beings sit in judgement of, and/or presume to decide the eternal fate/salvation of another human being. Ever! Period! Just my take!
thesometimesaint Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Hi Allen,Yes, without question, they should be done away with!Under no circumstance - ever - should a group of human beings sit in judgement of, and/or presume to decide the eternal fate/salvation of another human being.Ever!Period!Just my take! The Church can't/doesn't decide the eternal salvation of anyone. At most we disassociate ourselves from them in hopes they will repent. 1
name Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 At most we disassociate ourselves from them in hopes they will repent. Hi Sometime! You would "disassociate" (detach/separate) from them? What if they don't "repent?" Are they forever removed from the receiving the love, friendship and support that they once enjoyed/valued from their very own LDS brothers and sisters?
Sleeper Cell Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Hi Allen,Yes, without question, they should be done away with!Under no circumstance - ever - should a group of human beings sit in judgement of, and/or presume to decide the eternal fate/salvation of another human being.Ever!Period!Just my take! You would "disassociate" (detach/separate) from them? What if they don't "repent?" Are they forever removed from the receiving the love, friendship and support that they once enjoyed/valued from their very own LDS brothers and sisters? And what is wrong with “a group of human beings ... [sitting] in judgment of and/or presuming to decide the eternal fate/salvation of another human being?” The two most obvious reasons are that we don’t have the right to do so, and even if we did, we certainly do not have enough knowledge and understanding to render such a judgment. It is somewhat analogous to someone sitting in judgment on the internal religious practices of a church to which he/she does not belong and which he/she obviously does not understand. And which he/she insists on interpreting in the worst possible light. Edited July 9, 2014 by Sleeper Cell 2
thesometimesaint Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Hi Sometime!You would "disassociate" (detach/separate) from them?What if they don't "repent?"Are they forever removed from the receiving the love, friendship and support that they once enjoyed/valued from their very own LDS brothers and sisters? Yes we as a Church do. Though now-a-days it takes a pretty serious sin to be ex'd. IE; Murder, rape, incest, embezzlement of Church funds, willful continued teaching of false doctrine, that type of stuff. Me personally? I continue to love them no matter what the sin, but sometimes distance is the best option available. If they don't repent they suffer the consequences of not repenting. Just like every other person in or out of the Church. We are supposed to show an increase in love towards those who we reprove regardless of church affiliation or lack there of.
Yirgacheffe Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 . For the first generation or two of leaders I think that's a fair statement. I'm not sure if I agree that with time passed they would be so diligent. I don't understand the importance of keeping such records on file at all. I think the risks outweigh any possible benefits.Why don't they destroy the disciplinary records when a person dies?
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