"i See Dead People"

[juliann]

Winner!

 

This is exactly right. In fact now that you mention it, I remember her talking about the book a while back and me cautioning her about it. I have not read the book, just some of the reviews on Amazon and I think a FAIR review on it, if I remember correctly.

 

The influence of Visions of Glory is insidious....and I believe it is close to the top selling Mormon book of all time. I consider this a much more serious problem than OW.  Everyone should be reading this book (if you can find a way to not buy it) just to be prepared.  After the second person in our ward talked about it in F&T meeting, I broke down and read it. I then recognized where some of the more extreme comments in church were coming from.  It promotes the idea that we are surrounded by angels and departed family members all the time.  The subject of the book is led around by them like Scrooge in Christmas Carol to prepare him to ultimately have an office right next to Jesus in the new Missouri temple.  If you are as righteous and speshul as Spencer you get your own "portal" and do all your time and space travel through that.

 

This bleeds into church classes in comments from its devout followers.  One commented as the teacher was expressing the pain of her children not having a relationship with her parents (killed in a car accident).  So the teacher was told that if we are righteous enough, we can all have conversations with deceased family in the living room and she knew somebody whose kids talked to their grandparents all the time...so they weren't missing a thing, you see.  She is constantly talking about the HG telling us what to do in every conceivable circumstance.  The measure of perfection for Spencer is never having a thought of his own again, he only thinks what the HG does. A couple of weeks ago she commented how exciting all the temple building was because that was Christ's "portal" to the world.

 

I never would have picked up of this stuff had I not familiarized myself with that dreadful book.  It would be best read in a group because it is hilarious and so badly written that you will need support to get through it.  It continually contradicts itself.  It has an uncomfortable racially tinged jingoism.  Women and children are almost nonexistent, Spencer dispenses with his wife in a couple of sentences when she dies and we never hear of her again, or any sadness whatsoever. It uses the same few words so frequently that I started circling them just to alleviate the boredom as Spencer humbly opines about his speshulness.

[ERayR]

Now my mother, throughout her life, has related similar experiences, though on a much more infrequent basis and usually occurring during a temple session. I expect that such experiences are not unusual for others also, especially in the temple. Why should we accept similar experiences from some because they happen in the temple and not from others because they are more frequent and not necessarily inside the temple?

 

 

Because our modern civilized world has programed us to disbelieve in such things.

[CA Steve]

The influence of Visions of Glory is insidious....and I believe it is close to the top selling Mormon book of all time. I consider this a much more serious problem than OW.  Everyone should be reading this book (if you can find a way to not buy it) just to be prepared.  After the second person in our ward talked about it in F&T meeting, I broke down and read it. I then recognized where some of the more extreme comments in church were coming from.  It promotes the idea that we are surrounded by angels and departed family members all the time.  The subject of the book is led around by them like Scrooge in Christmas Carol to prepare him to ultimately have an office right next to Jesus in the new Missouri temple.  If you are as righteous and speshul as Spencer you get your own "portal" and do all your time and space travel through that.

 

This bleeds into church classes in comments from its devout followers.  One commented as the teacher was expressing the pain of her children not having a relationship with her parents (killed in a car accident).  So the teacher was told that if we are righteous enough, we can all have conversations with deceased family in the living room and she knew somebody whose kids talked to their grandparents all the time...so they weren't missing a thing, you see.  She is constantly talking about the HG telling us what to do in every conceivable circumstance.  The measure of perfection for Spencer is never having a thought of his own again, he only thinks what the HG does. A couple of weeks ago she commented how exciting all the temple building was because that was Christ's "portal" to the world.

 

I never would have picked up of this stuff had I not familiarized myself with that dreadful book.  It would be best read in a group because it is hilarious and so badly written that you will need support to get through it.  It continually contradicts itself.  It has an uncomfortable racially tinged jingoism.  Women and children are almost nonexistent, Spencer dispenses with his wife in a couple of sentences when she dies and we never hear of her again, or any sadness whatsoever. It uses the same few words so frequently that I started circling them just to alleviate the boredom as Spencer humbly opines about his speshulness.

Thanks for your insights. Your descriptions are spot on. I would prefer to not read the book, mostly because of all the other books I have that I want to read.

I would appreciate any feedback you might have on how to approach the subject without offending her, or for that matter my wife, who accepts what her friend says as authentic. How does one tactfully tell someone they are probably imagining all this? By the way I believe she has also been influenced by another book, Home and Back Again: My Journey Through The Valley of the Shadow of Death. by Imelda Fowler. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1490445978/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1, another book of which I am highly skeptical.

 

I need to dig up that review on the Visions of Glory book. Anyone know where it can be found?

 

Link to review added on edit.

 

Found it here http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/spencers-visions-of-glory

Edited June 21, 2014 by CA Steve

[juliann]

The only thing I can suggest is....ask to borrow the book and read it if so if anything is coming from that you can carefully make the point.  My experience with VOG groupies is that they can't be reasoned with.  The one I talked with refused to even read a review from another perspective, they do seem to look at it almost as scripture, so disputing it means you are disputing scripture. It seems like people are for it or against it right off the bat. The guy weaves scripture (without attribution) throughout.  Some of his own dialogue is cribbed from Paul.  (Amazing how Spencer can remember the exact dialogue of everyone in all those visions....) Just guessing, but it gives me the impression that those who have turned this into gospel aren't too familiar with scripture beyond the last days proof texting we are so familiar with from the Saturday's Warrior era.

[mfbukowski]

 

By the way, I am a cynic, and I believe that both of these people's experiences are probably self induced and do not involve any other people, alive or dead.

How could we tell the difference?  I suppose we could ask a dead person what they really said and look into the thoughts of the live person to see if what they thought the dead person said was the same?

[CA Steve]

How could we tell the difference?  I suppose we could ask a dead person what they really said and look into the thoughts of the live person to see if what they thought the dead person said was the same?

I agree with the difficulty in assessing the difference and more so it may not make any difference. Is the experience invalidated because it was self contained? Is it possible to gain valuable insights from them either way? The cynic in me says there is nothing there outside the consciousness of the person experiencing the 'vision' (again for lack of a better word). But I also believe it is possible to gain insights from these type of experiences.

 

I think what bothers me in the case of my wife's friend is the frequency with which she thinks they happen. And frankly I cannot say why that should be a troublesome issue, though it is to me. I guess it just does not fit with my own view of how such things should happen if they really did.

[juliann]

I agree with the difficulty in assessing the difference and more so it may not make any difference. Is the experience invalidated because it was self contained? Is it possible to gain valuable insights from them either way? The cynic in me says there is nothing there outside the consciousness of the person experiencing the 'vision' (again for lack of a better word). But I also believe it is possible to gain insights from these type of experiences.

 

I think what bothers me in the case of my wife's friend is the frequency with which she thinks they happen. And frankly I cannot say why that should be a troublesome issue, though it is to me. I guess it just does not fit with my own view of how such things should happen if they really did.

I certainly do not intend to discount spiritual experiences, and I do believe some have greater gifts to sense such things. But when it goes beyond the pale, and is finding my keys type stuff, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like testimonies (I call them speshulmonies) that are to tell everyone how the spirit stepped in to save us from an accident and such....this was actually said months after we had lost a teen in one.   We just don't have a culture of talking about truly meaningful experiences other than rare occasions when it might be a teaching tool or help to another.  So I think we feel uncomfortable with the trivialization of such experiences.

[ERayR]

I certainly do not intend to discount spiritual experiences, and I do believe some have greater gifts to sense such things. But when it goes beyond the pale, and is finding my keys type stuff, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like testimonies (I call them speshulmonies) that are to tell everyone how the spirit stepped in to save us from an accident and such....this was actually said months after we had lost a teen in one.   We just don't have a culture of talking about truly meaningful experiences other than rare occasions when it might be a teaching tool or help to another.  So I think we feel uncomfortable with the trivialization of such experiences.

 

I don't know if I have been saved from an accident but suspect that I have but I do know I have been blessed with having the right people in the right place more than once to mitigate the consequences of more than one accident. 

 

I do not see or talk to dead people but sometimes think I feel their presence. 

[Ahab]

We are not to be commanded in all things nor to be a slothful servant. The HG does not need to guide us in what to wear on a daily basis.

That said, it is possible to speak with dead people. OTOH, it is also possible that those dead people are really demons in disguise, seeking to deceive and gain control over the woman's decision making. Spend a few years giving her good advice, and then with her full trust you can convince her to do other things, as well.

Good counsel comes from good people and evil counsel comes from evil people, whether those people are living or dead (which really is just another way of living).

Nothing wrong with living in such a way that you can get good counsel from God at any time and for any situation, and I like talking with God about everything rather than trying to figure it all out by myself as if I really don't need or want his counsel. And I also appreciate it when I get the same counsel from other like minded people.

[bjw]

I think Julianne brings up some interesting points here. I think this is one of the reasons we are told when getting our temple recommend not to share temple experiences outside the temple. I believe these things are possible, and I have had my share of spiritual experiences in the LDS temples as well as other esoteric based organizations I've been in, but I have tried to make it a point to keep these things sacred to me and be very selective about who I share them with and where. I don't think a fast and testimony meeting is the appropriate place.

These things are definitely possible, and our church does work for the dead in temples and has a teaching about the veil between this life and the next, but these things should be "sacred, not secret" and should only be shared rarely.