MormonFreeThinker Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Answers in Genesis website claims that Neanderthals are modern humans that descended from Adam, but Elder James E. Talmage did not believe that Neanderthals were modern humans. Elder James E Talmage wrote, "I do not regard Adam as related to -- certainly not as descended from -- the Neanderthal, the Cro-Magnon, the Peking or the Piltdown man" http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Evolution/Earth_and_Man Elder Talmage also believed in death before the fall, he wrote, "The oldest, that is to say the earliest, rocks thus far identified in land masses reveal the fossilized remains of once living organisms, plant and animal. The coal strata, upon which the world of industry so largely depends, are essentially but highly compressed and chemically changed vegetable substance. The whole series of chalk deposits and many of our deep-sea limestones contain the skeletal remains of animals. These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation" http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Evolution/Earth_and_Man Hugh Nibley (was admired by President Hinckley) wrote, "Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation — for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared" Elder Talmage wrote Earth and Man before we had irrefutable DNA evidence. Microcondial DNA proves that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. 1
Rob Osborn Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Answers in Genesis website claims that Neanderthals are modern humans that descended from Adam, but Elder James E. Talmage did not believe that Neanderthals were modern humans. Elder James E Talmage wrote, "I do not regard Adam as related to -- certainly not as descended from -- the Neanderthal, the Cro-Magnon, the Peking or the Piltdown man" http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Evolution/Earth_and_Man Elder Talmage also believed in death before the fall, he wrote, "The oldest, that is to say the earliest, rocks thus far identified in land masses reveal the fossilized remains of once living organisms, plant and animal. The coal strata, upon which the world of industry so largely depends, are essentially but highly compressed and chemically changed vegetable substance. The whole series of chalk deposits and many of our deep-sea limestones contain the skeletal remains of animals. These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation" http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Evolution/Earth_and_Man Hugh Nibley (was admired by President Hinckley) wrote, "Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation — for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared" Elder Talmage wrote Earth and Man before we had irrefutable DNA evidence. Microcondial DNA proves that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. Their opinion is no different than you yourself speaking as an individual. Those opinions however do not represent the teachings of the Church. The official position of the Church is that man did not evolve from a lower order of species.
Mudcat Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Elder Talmage wrote Earth and Man before we had irrefutable DNA evidence. Microcondial DNA proves that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. "Prove" is a fairly big word, empirically speaking. Human DNA and chimp DNA sequences have a 95% in common. This seems to prove they are similar. Human DNA and banana DNA sequences have about 50% in common. This seems to prove they similar. The assumption that similarities equal a common ancestor, seems to be jumping to conclusions, I would think. There could be lots of possible permutations, including a common designer. Edited April 25, 2014 by Mudcat 3
cdowis Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Their opinion is no different than you yourself speaking as an individual. Those opinions however do not represent the teachings of the Church. The official position of the Church is that man did not evolve from a lower order of species.If you carefully read the quotes, there is no mention that man descended from a lower order of species. Nibley specifically stated in "Before Adam" that humans descended from Adam. However they did differ from the church teaching whether there was death prior to the fall of Adam.
MormonFreeThinker Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 "Prove" is a fairly big word, empirically speaking. Human DNA and chimp DNA sequences have a 95% in common. This seems to prove they are similar. Human DNA and banana DNA sequences have about 50% in common. This seems to prove they similar. The assumption that similarities equal a common ancestor, seems to be jumping to conclusions, I would think. There could be lots of possible permutations, including a common designer. "an endogenous retroviral element (ERV) is a retrovirus (a parasite) that has become part of the genome. There are several kinds of ERVs, and they can insert themselves at random locations. Humans and chimps have thousands of such ERVs in common -- the same type of ERV at the same location in the genome (D. M. Taylor 2003). " http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI141.html
Rob Osborn Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 "an endogenous retroviral element (ERV) is a retrovirus (a parasite) that has become part of the genome. There are several kinds of ERVs, and they can insert themselves at random locations. Humans and chimps have thousands of such ERVs in common -- the same type of ERV at the same location in the genome (D. M. Taylor 2003). " http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI141.html A detective goes out on a homicide call and finds a body with stab wounds. Does he find the first person with a shank and arrest him for murder?
Rob Osborn Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 "an endogenous retroviral element (ERV) is a retrovirus (a parasite) that has become part of the genome. There are several kinds of ERVs, and they can insert themselves at random locations. Humans and chimps have thousands of such ERVs in common -- the same type of ERV at the same location in the genome (D. M. Taylor 2003). " http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI141.html http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/do_shared_ervs_support_common_046751.html
changed Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 ... their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared" That is how I see it - there are worlds without number, many that have already passed away - I think Adam and Eve brought in a new age - started a new world. New worlds get built on the ruins of older worlds (Ether 13:9) 1
strappinglad Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Scientists, after much debate have finally decided that if one were to take a Neanderthal male and dress him in an Armani suit and have him walk down Wall Street, he would look no different than all the other cave men there.
MormonFreeThinker Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Just one argument 1. Elder Talmage believed in death before the fall, so we can conclude the same thing. Elder Talmage was a geologist, he understood the science. 2. Nobody denies that micro-evolution happens. AnswersinGenesis believes in rapid Super Evolution, "It is important to understand that the word kind used in Genesis 1 seems to represent something closer to the “family” level of classification in most instances."http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/11/01/how-many-kinds/ 3. Death before the Fall + micro-evolution + Old Earth = EVOLUTION Edited April 25, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
BCSpace Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Elder Talmage also believed in death before the fall I believe the Book of Mormon may implicitly teach there was death before the Garden state: And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were AFTER they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.2 Nephi 2:22 The state of no death therefore is AFTER all living things were created and so there is room for Evolution to be the creative process since there is nothing to provide details of the creative state itself. Hence, one could have death and evolution prior to the Garden, and when all is ready, Adam and Eve are placed into the Garden into a deathless state to await the Fall. This also allows us to still accept the doctrine of no death before the Fall, either literally as in the whole earth is in a deathless state, or more contextually where only the Garden is in a deathless state, as demonstrated by this timeline: (Creative State) (Creation Complete) | |Death and Evolution ----------------------------->Garden State of no death ---> The Fall --->Death and Evolution resume Edited April 25, 2014 by BCSpace
Rob Osborn Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I believe the Book of Mormon may implicitly teach there was death before the Garden state: And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were AFTER they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 2 Nephi 2:22 The state of no death therefore is AFTER all living things were created and so there is room for Evolution to be the creative process since there is nothing to provide details of the creative state itself. Hence, one could have death and evolution prior to the Garden, and when all is ready, Adam and Eve are placed into the Garden into a deathless state to await the Fall. This also allows us to still accept the doctrine of no death before the Fall, either literally as in the whole earth is in a deathless state, or more contextually where only the Garden is in a deathless state, as demonstrated by this timeline: (Creative State) (Creation Complete) | | Death and Evolution ----------------------------->Garden State of no death ---> The Fall --->Death and Evolution resume Well, if you want to believe such. The church actually teaches there was not yet death of any of the creation before the fall. This includes the creative periods.
BCSpace Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) The church actually teaches there was not yet death of any of the creation before the fall. This includes the creative periods. Please do feel free to show forth what these teachings are. I would like to reference the 1931 First Presidency statement allowing for the existence of pre Adamite races of man and then the ongoing debate within the Church over the issue up to and including Russel M Nelson being corrected by his junior companion in a public interview and Russell's ongoing Conference remarks meant to attack evolution but missing the mark entirely. Edited April 25, 2014 by BCSpace
MormonFreeThinker Posted April 25, 2014 Author Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Well, if you want to believe such. The church actually teaches there was not yet death of any of the creation before the fall. This includes the creative periods. Not so fast, many church leaders used to believe that "the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."We now have DNA evidence that proves the Lamanites are not the principle ancestors. We also have an essay that is approved by the First Presidency, and the new church manual says, "The Book of Mormon is a sacred record of some of the people who lived on the American continents between about 2000 B.C. and A.D. 400" Gospel Principles, (2011), 44–49 Elder Talmage wrote, "the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church" Edited April 25, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
BCSpace Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) We now have DNA evidence that proves the Lamanites are not the principle ancestors. Have to disagree with this reasoning. Considering the possible definitions of "principle" (greatest, most important, etc.), there need be no DNA connection at all. Therefore, that the Church changed this wording is meaningless relative to the DNA argument. It can still be said truthfully that the Laminates are the principle ancestors. Edited April 25, 2014 by BCSpace 1
ERayR Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 "Prove" is a fairly big word, empirically speaking. Human DNA and chimp DNA sequences have a 95% in common. This seems to prove they are similar. Human DNA and banana DNA sequences have about 50% in common. This seems to prove they similar. The assumption that similarities equal a common ancestor, seems to be jumping to conclusions, I would think. There could be lots of possible permutations, including a common designer. Hello old friend it is good to see you(so to speak) again. Hope all is well with you. I think you are correct but to those who have accepted the macro-evolution premise you have just spoken blasphemy so you better duck. 1
ERayR Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 "an endogenous retroviral element (ERV) is a retrovirus (a parasite) that has become part of the genome. There are several kinds of ERVs, and they can insert themselves at random locations. Humans and chimps have thousands of such ERVs in common -- the same type of ERV at the same location in the genome (D. M. Taylor 2003). " http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CI/CI141.html Just one argument 1. Elder Talmage believed in death before the fall, so we can conclude the same thing. Elder Talmage was a geologist, he understood the science. 2. Nobody denies that micro-evolution happens. AnswersinGenesis believes in rapid Super Evolution, "It is important to understand that the word kind used in Genesis 1 seems to represent something closer to the “family” level of classification in most instances."http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/11/01/how-many-kinds/ 3. Death before the Fall + micro-evolution + Old Earth = EVOLUTION Might large speculative leaps there in # 3
ERayR Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I believe the Book of Mormon may implicitly teach there was death before the Garden state: And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were AFTER they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.2 Nephi 2:22 The state of no death therefore is AFTER all living things were created and so there is room for Evolution to be the creative process since there is nothing to provide details of the creative state itself. Hence, one could have death and evolution prior to the Garden, and when all is ready, Adam and Eve are placed into the Garden into a deathless state to await the Fall. This also allows us to still accept the doctrine of no death before the Fall, either literally as in the whole earth is in a deathless state, or more contextually where only the Garden is in a deathless state, as demonstrated by this timeline: (Creative State) (Creation Complete) | |Death and Evolution ----------------------------->Garden State of no death ---> The Fall --->Death and Evolution resume I think if you will look closely you will find the whole earth was not in the Garden of Eden. 1
mfbukowski Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 And if you look REALLY closely you will find that the bible is not meant to be science. For some reason I think the bible is about God, and his existence cannot be scientifically proven.
mfbukowski Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I have discovered a source for an infinite supply of new energy! They are gloves which capture the energy created by the fingers when one types on a keyboard.My plan is to persuade Mormons to save on their energy bills by wearing them while on the computer, and then I will siphon off some of those huge reserves for myself. Next I will make their computers ask them endless questions about their opinions on evolution! Soon I will be able to take over the world!!!! BWAHHAAHHHAAAAA!!!! 1
thesometimesaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 A detective goes out on a homicide call and finds a body with stab wounds. Does he find the first person with a shank and arrest him for murder? He sure does. Now whether that arrest holds up is another question.
thesometimesaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Hello old friend it is good to see you(so to speak) again. Hope all is well with you. I think you are correct but to those who have accepted the macro-evolution premise you have just spoken blasphemy so you better duck. Macro-evolution=micro-evolution over time.
The Nehor Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 A detective goes out on a homicide call and finds a body with stab wounds. Does he find the first person with a shank and arrest him for murder?If the guy is standing over the victim with the victim's blood on the knife and he is kicking the corpse screaming about how glad he is that he killed the *******.....then probably. This scenario best fits the analogy too.
thesometimesaint Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 I have discovered a source for an infinite supply of new energy! They are gloves which capture the energy created by the fingers when one types on a keyboard.My plan is to persuade Mormons to save on their energy bills by wearing them while on the computer, and then I will siphon off some of those huge reserves for myself. Next I will make their computers ask them endless questions about their opinions on evolution! Soon I will be able to take over the world!!!! BWAHHAAHHHAAAAA!!!! http://www.televisiontunes.com/Pinky_and_the_Brain.html
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