Is There Not An Apparent Problem To The Doctrine Of The Trinity?

[Vance]

And we also have this little tidbit.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered, we, also learn obedience by the things we suffer. And we MUST learn obedience to get "eternal salvation".

[danielwoods]

The scripture doesn't say that. You are inserting that "rewards" business. The scripture is clear that suffering is an element of salvation.

 

If Paul was "already saved" why did he say in Rom 13:11 that "now is our salvation nearer than when we believed"? Clearly indicating that he had not yet reached it.

Clever, ignore the part where he says "salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer", and then claim that the scripture doesn't say that. 

Clever, but not convincing.

 

This is another classic case of you disregarding what the scripture clearly and plainly states.

We have both,

"salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer"

and,

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons"

You can't be "a son" without being chastened and you become "a son" when you get "saved" (your definition not ours).

Nothing in there about "rewards", that is something you trying to wedge in. BUT it doesn't fit.

 

I've been around this block with you before. The issue is seeing rewards as a part of salvation. 

 

The concept of salvation is simple (as one LDS poster here put it a while ago, "you are talking about *just* salvation"). He was making the point that the LDS go way beyond salvation (based on revelation). 

 

Romans 10: ^{9 "}If you declare^(L) with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”^(M) and believe^(N) in your heart that God raised him from the dead,^(O) you will be saved.^(P) 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

 

Acts 16:³¹ They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

 

1 John 5:^{13 "}I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

So, it's clear that saved/believers are no longer striving to be saved. They have it. It's done. What happens after that? Spiritual growth. This is where suffering comes in, that is talked about in these passages. I'm not trying to wedge anything in. It simply doesn't state that we suffer in order to be saved. 

 

If you wish to claim that it's an "element" of salvation. Then please post where the scripture states that. And what element it is exactly? 

 

 

 

And we also have this little tidbit.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Christ learned obedience by the things he suffered, we, also learn obedience by the things we suffer. And we MUST learn obedience to get "eternal salvation".

 

 

 

We learn obedience, however we gained eternal salvation based on the work of Christ alone. Anyone who thinks they become more and more saved by more obedience is fooling themselves. 

 

What does learning obedience do? It allows Christ to work through us more. As Paul said, "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

Edited June 3, 2014 by danielwoods

[teddyaware]

I've been around this block with you before. The issue is seeing rewards as a part of salvation. 

 

The concept of salvation is simple (as one LDS poster here put it a while ago, "you are talking about *just* salvation"). He was making the point that the LDS go way beyond salvation (based on revelation). 

 

Romans 10: ^{9 "}If you declare^(L) with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”^(M) and believe^(N) in your heart that God raised him from the dead,^(O) you will be saved.^(P) 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

 

Acts 16:³¹ They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

 

1 John 5:^{13 "}I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

So, it's clear that saved/believers are no longer striving to be saved. They have it. It's done. What happens after that? Spiritual growth. This is where suffering comes in, that is talked about in these passages. I'm not trying to wedge anything in. It simply doesn't state that we suffer in order to be saved. 

 

If you wish to claim that it's an "element" of salvation. Then please post where the scripture states that. And what element it is exactly? 

 

 We learn obedience, however we gained eternal salvation based on the work of Christ alone. Anyone who thinks they become more and more saved by more obedience is fooling themselves. 

 

What does learning obedience do? It allows Christ to work through us more. As Paul said, "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

Hi Daniel, The place where you and I would part company is that I, like Vance, believe there are degrees of salvation in Christ. Latter-day Saints believe the varying degrees of salvation are characterized by the reception or lack of the very rewards for faithfulness we've been discussing. We believe there are real and significant differences in the states of spiritual blessedness between those who receive heavenly rewards for their steadfastness and diligence in Christ and those who believe in Christ but are unmindful, uncaring and slothful in pursuing spiritual growth.

The LDS principle of varying degrees of glory in Christ is a natural outgrowth of "the law of the harvest," the principle that one reaps what one sows. Those who believe in Christ, but are careless and indifferent to the commandment to pursue spiritual growth, will reap lesser degrees of grace and knowledge in Christ than those who are diligent in the pursuit of spiritual growth. We believe it is the unalterable principle of the law of the harvest that caused Paul to counsel Timothy with these words:

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Timothy 4)

 

It is obvious that as a faithful Christian Timothy was saved, but Paul strongly encourages Timothy move forward in the faith by being zealous and fully diligent in the cause of Christ. Why? because there are real and significant differences in the states of saved blessedness between those who are not interested in growing spiritually and those who are interested and follow through. Again, Paul makes this principle very clear...

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2 Corinthians 9)

 

So the question is what precisely is it that one reaps when he sows sparingly or sows sow bountifully? Is it not true that the thing that one reaps are the heavenly rewards God bestows upon men and women in direct proportion to the degree of faithfulness and diligence put forth? Of course it is. Those who are fully faithful and diligent will reap greater degrees of spirituality and development of godly character than will those who are slothful in the faith, It all makes perfect sense.

 

In light of so many scriptures, like the one above, I'm sorry to tell you that your attempts to somehow prove there will ultimately be no real and meaningful differences between those who are saved but slothful and those who are saved and fully diligent in Christ will only continue to fail to persuade. For it only stands to reason -- and the Bible bears this out -- that by the law of the harvest God will reward those who are fully diligent in the faith of Christ with greater degrees of spiritual refinement, glory and power; while the spiritually lazy, who rest only on the laurels of their first salvation experience, will possess less spiritual refinement, glory and power. This has to be true, otherwise the rewards of God are as empty, meaningless and insignificant as a child's membership in the Mickey Mouse Club.

Edited June 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[Vance]

I've been around this block with you before. The issue is seeing rewards as a part of salvation.

The real problem is the definition of salvation that is being used. An understandable problem as the usage of the word in the New Testament (specifically Paul's usage) is very inconsistent. 

 

The concept of salvation is simple (as one LDS poster here put it a while ago, "you are talking about *just* salvation"). He was making the point that the LDS go way beyond salvation (based on revelation).

And so there is a communication issue. Perhaps we need to be more specific as to what we mean when we use the word. I, for the most part, have been using YOUR (the modern American Protestant Evangelical) definition and not the LDS definition.

 

Acts 16:³¹ They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

Notice the future tense.

 

1 John 5:^{13 "}I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Can you really "believe in the name of the Son of God" if you do not obey him? No, not really.

 

So, it's clear that saved/believers are no longer striving to be saved. They have it. It's done.

Again, what is meant by "saved" in that passage? Does it mean "saved" from eternal physical death? Or does it mean "saved" from eternal spiritual death? Or does it mean "saved" from drowning? Or does it mean "saved" from starvation?

You like to quote Paul, I prefer to quote Jesus.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Also see Mark 13:13)

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Enduring to the end is a requirement for salvation. So the question is salvation from what?

Oh, and by the way, Paul agreed with Jesus on this, for he wrote,

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

If you wish to claim that it's an "element" of salvation. Then please post where the scripture states that. And what element it is exactly?

Already did that. It doesn't seem to matter to you what the scriptures say.

 

. . . however we gained eternal salvation based on the work of Christ alone.

NO WHERE is scripture can that be found. What Christ did for us, we could not do for ourselves. His work is indispensable to our salvation. BUT we must do our part, or else it doesn't happen. The verses I quote above are clear.

 

Anyone who thinks they become more and more saved by more obedience is fooling themselves.

Any one who thinks that they can do nothing and still have eternal life are the ones fooling themselves.

 

What does learning obedience do?

According to the scriptures I have quoted, it puts us into a position to receive eternal life.

 

It allows Christ to work through us more. As Paul said, "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

And he was speaking of the obedient. Edited June 4, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

Hi Daniel, The place where you and I would part company is that I, like Vance, believe there are degrees of salvation in Christ. Latter-day Saints believe the varying degrees of salvation are characterized by the reception or lack of the very rewards for faithfulness we've been discussing. We believe there are real and significant differences in the states of spiritual blessedness between those who receive heavenly rewards for their steadfastness and diligence in Christ and those who believe in Christ but are unmindful, uncaring and slothful in pursuing spiritual growth.

The LDS principle of varying degrees of glory in Christ is a natural outgrowth of "the law of the harvest," the principle that one reaps what one sows. Those who believe in Christ, but are careless and indifferent to the commandment to pursue spiritual growth, will reap lesser degrees of grace and knowledge in Christ than those who are diligent in the pursuit of spiritual growth. We believe it is the unalterable principle of the law of the harvest that caused Paul to counsel Timothy with these words:

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Timothy 4)

 

It is obvious that as a faithful Christian Timothy was saved, but Paul strongly encourages Timothy move forward in the faith by being zealous and fully diligent in the cause of Christ. Why? because there are real and significant differences in the states of saved blessedness between those who are not interested in growing spiritually and those who are interested and follow through. Again, Paul makes this principle very clear...

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2 Corinthians 9)

 

So the question is what precisely is it that one reaps when he sows sparingly or sows sow bountifully? Is it not true that the thing that one reaps are the heavenly rewards God bestows upon men and women in direct proportion to the degree of faithfulness and diligence put forth? Of course it is. Those who are fully faithful and diligent will reap greater degrees of spirituality and development of godly character than will those who are slothful in the faith, It all makes perfect sense.

 

In light of so many scriptures, like the one above, I'm sorry to tell you that your attempts to somehow prove there will ultimately be no real and meaningful differences between those who are saved but slothful and those who are saved and fully diligent in Christ will only continue to fail to persuade. For it only stands to reason -- and the Bible bears this out -- that by the law of the harvest God will reward those who are fully diligent in the faith of Christ with greater degrees of spiritual refinement, glory and power; while the spiritually lazy, who rest only on the laurels of their first salvation experience, will possess less spiritual refinement, glory and power. This has to be true, otherwise the rewards of God are as empty, meaningless and impotent as a child's membership in the Mickey Mouse Club.

 

The disagreement is largely semantic in nature. 

 

You describe "different degrees of salvation" (A term never used in the Bible) to describe different degrees of rewards. 

 

I describe different degrees of rewards, as different degrees of rewards. 

 

So, do I believe in rewards? Of course. I agree that the slothful and arrogant will not be rewarded as the same as the diligent and humble. 

 

Am I trying to argue that there is no real and meaningful difference between these two rewards? Of course not. There is a very real difference, that we don't see or know yet the details.

[Vance]

The disagreement is largely semantic in nature. 

 

You describe "different degrees of salvation" (A term never used in the Bible) to describe different degrees of rewards. 

 

I describe different degrees of rewards, as different degrees of rewards.

FYI "different degrees of rewards" is "(A term never used in the Bible)" either.

Sorry, you get no points for that one.

[Vance]

I describe different degrees of rewards, as different degrees of rewards. 

 

So, do I believe in rewards? Of course. I agree that the slothful and arrogant will not be rewarded as the same as the diligent and humble.

We and Paul agree with this.

Rom 2:6 (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Eternal life, glory, honour, and peace are rewards to those that do good.

[danielwoods]

The real problem is the definition of salvation that is being used. An understandable problem as the usage of the word in the New Testament (specifically Paul's usage) is very inconsistent. 

 

And so there is a communication issue. Perhaps we need to be more specific as to what we mean when we use the word. I, for the most part, have been using YOUR (the modern American Protestant Evangelical) definition and not the LDS definition.

 

Notice the future tense.

 

Can you really "believe in the name of the Son of God" if you do not obey him? No, not really.

 

Again, what is meant by "saved" in that passage? Does it mean "saved" from eternal physical death? Or does it mean "saved" from eternal spiritual death? Or does it mean "saved" from drowning? Or does it mean "saved" from starvation?

You like to quote Paul, I prefer to quote Jesus.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Also see Mark 13:13)

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Enduring to the end is a requirement for salvation. So the question is salvation from what?

Oh, and by the way, Paul agreed with Jesus on this, for he wrote,

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

Already did that. It doesn't seem to matter to you what the scriptures say.

 

NO WHERE is scripture can that be found. What Christ did for us, we could not do for ourselves. His work is indispensable to our salvation. BUT we must do our part, or else it doesn't happen. The verses I quote above are clear.

 

Any one who thinks that they can do nothing and still have eternal life are the ones fooling themselves.

 

According to the scriptures I have quoted, it puts us into a position to receive eternal life.

 

And he was speaking of the obedient.

 

Are we saved because we are obedient? 

[danielwoods]

FYI "different degrees of rewards" is "(A term never used in the Bible)" either.

Sorry, you get no points for that one.

 

The concept of different degrees of rewards is found in the Bible. 

 

Matt. 6:¹⁹ “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth,^(V) where moths and vermin destroy,^(W) and where thieves break in and steal. ²⁰ But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven,^(X) where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.^(Y) 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

 

The concept of different degrees of salvation is not. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by danielwoods

[cdowis]

The concept of different degrees of rewards is found in the Bible. 

 

Matt. 6:¹⁹ “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth,^(V) where moths and vermin destroy,^(W) and where thieves break in and steal. ²⁰ But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven,^(X) where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.^(Y) 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

 

The concept of different degrees of salvation is not. 

 

And that fits the LDS concept of salvation.

[teddyaware]

The concept of different degrees of rewards is found in the Bible. 

 

Matt. 6:¹⁹ “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth,^(V) where moths and vermin destroy,^(W) and where thieves break in and steal. ²⁰ But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven,^(X) where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.^(Y) 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

 

The concept of different degrees of salvation is not.

Your acknowledgement that there are different degrees of heavenly reward is so close to the LDS doctrine of different degrees of glory (different degrees of glory is by far the more universally accepted LDS expression) that what you are presenting as a point of disagreement is really a distinction without a difference. We agree much more than we disagree.

[danielwoods]

Your acknowledgement that there are different degrees of heavenly reward is so close to the LDS doctrine of different degrees of glory (different degrees of glory is by far the more universally accepted LDS expression) that what you are presenting as a point of disagreement is really a distinction without a difference. We agree much more than we disagree.

 

Right. When you get to the bottom of our disagreement, it's about semantics. Using the word salvation when we (EV) would understand it better if you used "different degrees of glory". 

 

From that point forward, we disagree with the reliance of "further revelation", that details what those different degrees of glory mean. The larger picture though, we agree. 

[teddyaware]

Right. When you get to the bottom of our disagreement, it's about semantics. Using the word salvation when we (EV) would understand it better if you used "different degrees of glory". 

 

From that point forward, we disagree with the reliance of "further revelation", that details what those different degrees of glory mean. The larger picture though, we agree.

Very good! I've learned over the years that many apparent disagreements are not disagreements of real substance but misunderstandings based on differing definitions of words.

[Vance]

Are we saved because we are obedient?

Define what you mean by "saved" in that question.

Because if you mean "saved from eternal physical death" then the answer is no.

But if you mean "saved from eternal spiritual death" then the answer is yes, and I can provide several New Testament verses that clearly show it.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Vance

[mfbukowski]

Define what you mean by "saved" in that question.

Because if you mean "saved from eternal physical death" then the answer is no.

But if you mean "saved from eternal spiritual death" then the answer is yes, and I can provide several New Testament verses that clearly show it.

what about obedience to the admonition to accept Jesus as your savior?

[Vance]

what about obedience to the admonition to accept Jesus as your savior?

According to Daniel, Jesus does it all alone. You don't have to do anything.

[danielwoods]

Define what you mean by "saved" in that question.

Because if you mean "saved from eternal physical death" then the answer is no.

But if you mean "saved from eternal spiritual death" then the answer is yes, and I can provide several New Testament verses that clearly show it.

 

 

Spiritual death of course. 

 

 

According to Daniel, Jesus does it all alone. You don't have to do anything.

 

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and paid the whole price for all of our sin. There is not one sin that is left for us to pay. 

 

"Believe on the Lord and be saved" is all we can do. 

[teddyaware]

Spiritual death of course. 

 

 

 

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and paid the whole price for all of our sin. There is not one sin that is left for us to pay. 

 

"Believe on the Lord and be saved" is all we can do.

Just so we don't get started unnecessarily spinning around and around on the endless gospel debate merry-go-round again, let me make something perfectly clear: Latter-day Saint revelation declares that all saved humans, regardless of the degree of glory obtained, receive a complete remission of sins. Whether they be inheritors of the celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms, all are forgiven and fully redeemed by the Lord. Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 makes this point of doctrine clear; so there's no need to continue pushing down this road just because some Latter-day Saints may be unaware of the fact that all saved men and women receive a complete remission of sins.

But though Christ fully and completely paid the burden of sin for each individual, regardless of the degree of glory inherited, that does not mean there are not greater degrees of glory reserved for those who are more diligent, faithful and valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ than those who neglect the responsibility to grow in the grace and knowledge of God.

The End.

 

Edited June 5, 2014 by teddyaware

[Flyonthewall]

Just so we don't get started unnecessarily spinning around and around on the endless gospel debate merry-go-round again, let me make something perfectly clear: Latter-day Saint revelation declares that all saved humans, regardless of the degree of glory obtained, receive a complete remission of sins. Whether they be inheritors of the celestial, terrestrial or telestial kingdoms, all are forgiven and fully redeemed by the Lord. Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 makes this point of doctrine clear; so there's no need to continue pushing down this road just because some Latter-day Saints may be unaware of the fact that all saved men and women receive a complete remission of sins.

But though Christ fully and completely paid the burden of sin for each individual, regardless of the degree of glory inherited, that does not mean there are not greater degrees of glory reserved for those who are more diligent, faithful and valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ than those who neglect the responsibility to grow in the grace and knowledge of God.

The End.

That remission of sin may not be without cost to the individual, even though Christ has fully and completely paid the burden of sin for all ...

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

[teddyaware]

That remission of sin may not be without cost to the individual, even though Christ has fully and completely paid the burden of sin for all ...

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Appreciate your input. After a very careful and intensive study of 2 Nephi 9, D&C 76, D&C 88, and D&C 138, I've to understand that after the resurrection and final judgment are over, and all heirs of salvation are assigned to either the celestial, terrestrial of telestial kingdoms, all who have gained entry into one of those kingdoms of glory will have done so only after sincere repentance and forgiveness of their sins through the merits of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Unrepentant men and women may suffer for their sins, either in this world or in the spirit prison (hell) after death, but that suffering does not pay the price for their sin. Rather, when God causes the wicked to suffer for their sins it is calculated and employed to bring the sinful unto Christ (think Alma the Younger), for sooner or later they will come to realize their sufferings will never end (endless punishment) unless and until they come unto Christ in faith and truly repent.

"They (the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory) have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world." (Joseph Fielding Smith)

Edited June 6, 2014 by teddyaware

[Vance]

Spiritual death of course.

I will assume that you didn't ask for the verse that show my point because you already know about them.

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and paid the whole price for all of our sin.

Well, duh! Of course Christ paid for my sins while I am yet a sinner. He paid for all of the sins of all of mankind. And he did it long before many of us were born.

But that does not absolve us of doing what he requires of us BEFORE he will reward us with eternal salvation.

 

"Believe on the Lord and be saved" is all we can do.

IF you really "believe on" the Lord THEN you will really be obedient to him. Too many people believe that they don't need to repent (part of which is no longer committing sin) to receive forgiveness. Yet the scriptures are clear that forgiveness comes through repentance.

[danielwoods]

I will assume that you didn't ask for the verse that show my point because you already know about them.

Well, duh! Of course Christ paid for my sins while I am yet a sinner. He paid for all of the sins of all of mankind. And he did it long before many of us were born.

But that does not absolve us of doing what he requires of us BEFORE he will reward us with eternal salvation.

 

IF you really "believe on" the Lord THEN you will really be obedient to him. Too many people believe that they don't need to repent (part of which is no longer committing sin) to receive forgiveness. Yet the scriptures are clear that forgiveness comes through repentance.

 

 

So you no longer commit sin? 

[Anakin7]

    We all sin, but strive to overcome that sin nature we inherit by way of Christ Jesus Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice and the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. No once saved always saved - OSAS

 

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LSA Jedi Knight

[MiserereNobis]

Here is a nice depiction of how Dante showed the medieval Catholic view of "different levels of Heaven"

 

[morganfj]

I have reviewed  2 Nephi 31:21, 3 Nephi 11:27, Mormon 7:7, Mosiah 15:1-3 and Ether 3:14,,,   yet I seem to have a hard time with Joseph Smith's 1820 vision of Both Father and Son in human form?