Is There Not An Apparent Problem To The Doctrine Of The Trinity?

[teddyaware]

I have reviewed  2 Nephi 31:21, 3 Nephi 11:27, Mormon 7:7, Mosiah 15:1-3 and Ether 3:14,,,   yet I seem to have a hard time with Joseph Smith's 1820 vision of Both Father and Son in human form?

 

Coincidentally, the very first chapter of the Book of Mormon has an account of what might properly be called Lehi's first vision in which the Father and the Son are presented as two separate and distinct personages in human form:

8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

11 And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read. (1 Nephi 1)

 

In the above account we have several similarities with Joseph Smith's first vision.

 

1 God is a male personage of human form who occupies space and has the proper body parts so as to be able to sit upon a throne.

 

2 There is no doubt but that this enthroned divine personage is God the Father, and we know this for two reasons:

a.  He is worshiped and praised as God by numberless concourses of angels.

b. In this vision, He who sits upon the throne is not the same personage as the One -- with a capital 'O' (indicating divinity) -- who then appears on the scene with twelve others (the twelve disciples of Christ).

 

3. The luster of Christ is in appearance brighter than the noonday sun, just exactly as described by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

 

4 The One (Christ) who appears to Lehi is a male personage who has legs and feet, which enable Him to properly stand; and has a right hand with which he was able to carry a book, clearly demonstrating He (the One) is anthropomorphic.

 

So here we have two divine male personages in human form, and who can deny that this is the clear meaning of the above verses. The Book of Mormon account of Lehi's encounter with the Father and the Son is in harmony with the .canonized version of Joseph Smith's first vision as found in the Pearl of Great Price.

Edited June 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[Vance]

So you no longer commit sin?

That is a dumb question.

Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Nothing in there about no longer committing sin.

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Nothing in there about no longer committing sin.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Nothing in there about no longer committing sin.

It is less about where you are on the path and more about making progress on the path in moving towards becoming like the perfect man (that is Jesus Christ).

[danielwoods]

IF you really "believe on" the Lord THEN you will really be obedient to him. Too many people believe that they don't need to repent (part of which is no longer committing sin) to receive forgiveness. Yet the scriptures are clear that forgiveness comes through repentance.

 

 

That is a dumb question.

The question was prompted by your statement above, "part of which is no longer committing sin."

 

Maybe you can explain your own statement since the asking the question is dumb. 

[EllenMaksoud]

So accoding to the traditional doctrine of the trinity, God is one being that manifests himself as three persons. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. However not three Gods but one God. The roles never cross.

Most fundamental Christians believe that the resurrection is literal, and that Christ has a body of flesh and bone. They also believe that God (the Father) is spirit. If Christ is the Father then God has a body and is not only spirit. Or Christ must lay down his body when acting as the Father, which scripture says cannot happen because that would be death.

Is it just me, or is the LDS doctrine of the Godhead the only one that makes sense? I get confused hearing other faiths talk about the Godhead.

If we realize and fully accept that inequalities can easily exist, then it is easy to see God, Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit as three entities, and we can see that they are united in the singularity of their purpose. The idea and subsequent dogma of the Trinity did not emerge until the 4th century, and it has always seemed ludicrous to me that we would take part of our doctrine from an apostate and hopelessly lost group of old men.

[Vance]

The question was prompted by your statement above, "part of which is no longer committing sin."

 

Maybe you can explain your own statement since the asking the question is dumb.

Perhaps I could have worded it better.

"part of which is giving up your sins" (Not that you no longer are committing ANY sin, but that you are no longer committing some of your sins. A process, which if continued through the eternities, will result in you no longer commit any sins.)

[danielwoods]

Perhaps I could have worded it better.

"part of which is giving up your sins" (Not that you no longer are committing ANY sin, but that you are no longer committing some of your sins. A process, which if continued through the eternities, will result in you no longer commit any sins.)

 

Sounds much better thanks!

[mfbukowski]

I have reviewed  2 Nephi 31:21, 3 Nephi 11:27, Mormon 7:7, Mosiah 15:1-3 and Ether 3:14,,,   yet I seem to have a hard time with Joseph Smith's 1820 vision of Both Father and Son in human form?

God is not in human form, we are in His form. Straight out of Genesis.

[Vance]

God is not in human form, we are in His form. Straight out of Genesis.

You are correct.

And even some of the scriptures he referenced agree.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

But I think he meant verses 15-17.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

But he missed a few,

Mosiah 7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth—

Alma 18:34 Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true;

Alma 22:12 And it came to pass that when Aaron saw that the king would believe his words, he began from the creation of Adam, reading the scriptures unto the king—how God created man after his own image, and that God gave him commandments, and that because of transgression, man had fallen.

Edited to add,

And then there is this, which I find very interesting.

Alma 5:14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

• • •

19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Vance

[Tacenda]

I hope this is appropriate for this thread.  I'm listening to a podcast discussing the Mormon God.  http://mormonmatters.org/2014/06/09/230-the-mormon-god/

 

The introduction is:

 

Mormons have several quite distinctive views of God, but do most Mormons realize it? In almost every theological area, ranging from the nature of God as Creator (creating “from nothing” or as organizer of eternal element?) to the four major “omnis”—omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent—Mormons have a take that is often quite different from traditional Judeo-Christian theism. Yet, even though Mormon theology takes these angles, we often find them forgotten by those “in the pews.” Other than when speaking about Mormonism’s minority position among Christians that God has a tangible body, most Latter-day Saints sound more like mainstream Christians when talking about God’s power and foreknowledge and the nature of eternity than they do Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the Pratt brothers, or almost all other Mormon theologians. Why? And would it be to their (and the wider community’s) benefit if we showed more consistency in LDS theological positions about God?

In this episode, panelists Charley Harrell, Jim McLachlan, and Lorie Winder Stromberg join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon for an in-depth discussion of Mormonism’s God. The focus ends up on the subjects mentioned above, with the topic of God’s physical embodiment, including being gendered, postponed to a future discussion