emarkp Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Simon Magus may have been doing what the Great Houdini and David Copperfield have done, and that is an amazing technical achievement -- with a lot of wonderful showmanship -- but it is all fakery, as you well know. Are you saying that God is a fake? Or are you saying that He cannot have used awesome technical ability to accomplish his aims?I mean he asked to have the power of God without pursuing righteousness. If you could comprehend or obtain God's power from secular/scientific investigation, he wouldn't have been committing a sin. It would also make God a liar, since he's made it quite clear the only way to salvation is through Christ, not through a laboratory.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 The only reason why the "other half" is seemingly undetectable to some is because of unrighteousness. The more righteous one is the easier it is for him to discern and understand the things of God. The things of God are clearly and powerfully revealed to the righteous on a regular basis. A totally corrupt and degenerate but intelligent scientist can conduct experimentation by the scientific method and make important discoveries in spite of his unrighteousness. But the things of God can never be known by that unrighteous man no matter how hard he might try because the knowledge and the wisdom of God can only be spiritually discerned. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2) For the truly righteous (those who become saints of God through the atonement of Christ), the means to work the miraculous is no longer a mystery, and whenever it is expedient in the Lord they can do the miraculous. But unalloyed righteousness is the key. 1 And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity— (3 Nephi 8:1) For those who know that true righteousness is the key to obtaining the knowledge and power of God, and then with zeal diligently pursue it, working the miracles of God becomes commonplace and all the wisdom of all the world's greatest scientists becomes nothing more than a most rudimentary and child-friendly introduction into the realm of law and truth. Without righteousness, no matter how brilliant and intelligent a man may be, all he can ever expect is a never ending process of worldly learning that will not bring him closer to the truth. But when men are truly righteous the floodgates of knowledge and wisdom are thrown wide open and men can then actually become like God -- moving mountains, causing the earth to quake and changing the courses of great rivers by mere word of the mouth. So great is the knowledge and power of the righteous that whole cities of the sanctified can be lifted up to dwell in the glorious presence of God... 13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him... 21 And it came to pass that the Lord showed unto Enoch all the inhabitants of the earth; and he beheld, and lo, Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold mine abode forever. (Moses 7) Without a most sincere personal quest to obtain the knowledge of God through righteousness, all we are doing is spinning our wheels.Agreed, but I think the point was that righteousness is untestable in a scientific sense and is therefore not science. Maybe someday we can plug into a righteousness meter but not now.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Post hoc ergo Propter hoc.Well hocus pocus to you too. (yes I know what it means)
teddyaware Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Agreed, but I think the point was that righteousness is untestable in a scientific sense and is therefore not science. Maybe someday we can plug into a righteousness meter but not now.It is Paul who said that when it comes to the Gospel the concerns and methods of science are not to be included in the process of truth discovery:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6) It doesn't matter if scientists say Gospel truth cannot be verified by science. The Spirit is the greatest teacher of truth and by the Spirit man can know with certainty what the truth is. One of the reasons why we go around and around in these discussions on the Gospel and science without comity and satisfactory resolution is because the tools and methods of truth discovery of the Gospel are not the same tools and methods of science. In science the tools are the empirical senses and instruments created to apply the scientific method; in the Gospel the tools and methods of truth discovery include righteousness, faith, hope, charity, godly wisdom, scripture study, fervent prayer and revelation from heaven. Throughout the Standard Works, all the great prophets demonstrated they couldn't care less about what science has to say about the Gospel method of truth discovery. So why should I? Read the scriptures and you'll see the Gospel method of truth discovery works without any input whatsoever from science. In fact, what I have observed is that those who overly rely on science are often stymied in their discovery of Gospel truth because they refuse to let go of science so that they might with full purpose of heart successfully apply the tools and methods of the Gospel process of truth discovery. False and unnecessary loyalty to the scientific method tends to prevent the naturally skeptical scientist from following in the pathway of the prophets so as to gain a great and ever-expanding measure of Gospel truth. "Science this" and "science that;" I'm so glad I haven't been taken in by it. Science has done much good, but when it comes to the Gospel I say to heck with science and its clutching grip on the minds and hearts of those who might otherwise gain a sure witness and abundant measure of Gospel truth if it weren't for science's mind and spirit confining shackles. My recommendation for all those so enshackled is to throw off those mind confining chains and pursue Gospel truth free and unfettered, by enthusiastically employing the tools and methods of truth discovery prescribed in the scriptures...4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father,in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10) Edited February 25, 2014 by teddyaware
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 It is Paul who said that when it comes to the Gospel the concerns and methods of science are not to be included in the process of truth discovery:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6)It doesn't matter if scientists say Gospel truth cannot be verified science. The Spirit is the greatest teacher of truth and by the Spirit man can know with certainty what the truth is.One of the reasons why we go around and around in these discussions on the Gospel and science, without comity and satisfactory resolution, is because the tools and methods of truth discovery of the Gospel are not the same tools and methods of science. In science the tools are the empirical senses and instruments created to apply the scientific method. In the Gospel the tools and methods of truth discovery include righteousness, faith, hope, charity, godly wisdom, scripture study, fervent prayer and revelation from heaven.Throughout the Standard Works, all the great prophets demonstrated they couldn't care less about what science has to say about the Gospel method of truth discovery. So why should I? Read the scriptures and you'll see the Gospel method of truth discovery works without any input whatsoever from science. In fact, what I have observed is that those who overly rely on science are often stymied in their discovery of Gospel truth because they refuse to let go of science so that they might be able, with full purpose of heart, to successfully apply the tools and methods of the Gospel process of truth discovery. False and unnecessary loyalty to the scientific method tends to prevent the naturally skeptical scientist from following in the pathway of the prophets so as to gain a full and ever-expanding measure of Gospel truth. "Science this" and "science that;" I'm so glad I haven't been taken in by it.Science has done much good, but when it comes to the Gospel I say to heck with science and its clutching grip on the minds and hearts of those who might otherwise gain a sure witness and abundant measure of Gospel truth if it weren't for science's mind and spirit confining shackles. My recommendation for all those so enshackled is to throw off those mind confining chains and pursue Gospel truth free and unfettered by enthusiastically employing the tools and methods of truth discovery prescribed in the scriptures...4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father,in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10)I think you're missing the point I was making, and that is that there is nothing beyond nature or what is natural. And yes we can use the scientific methods of discovery when learning about religion and God and when implementing what God reveals to try to teach us. Revelation from God is simply God communicating with us, giving us thoughts and feelings from him and sometimes seeing what he can see, and communicating with God involves the same principles as communicating with anyone else, even though not everyone can receive communications from us as God can. Like how God can read my mind when I'm not even moving my lips or standing in front of him so he can see my body language. We can come pretty close it seems with cell phones these days, but still God can do some things others of us can't do now, even with all of our modern technology. But still, God is a person just as all the rest of us, his children, are also persons, and wr can communicate naturally with him, according to his natural abilities, just as we can communicate naturally with others according to each person's own natural abilities. It's just that our natural abilities haven't been developed to the point where we can communicate on the same level as God's natural abilities. But all that is going on everywhere is natural, or in accordance with the principles in all of nature. Even sin and the results of sin are natural, so the point is to develop and perfect our nature state as God's nature is perfect and perfectly good. 1
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Agreed, but I think the point was that righteousness is untestable in a scientific sense and is therefore not science. Maybe someday we can plug into a righteousness meter but not now.Yes righteousness is testable in a scientific sense, and you can monitor it by knowing what righteousness is and looking to see if people are living according to righteous laws. People doing good things. It's not hard to see if you know what to look for.
teddyaware Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 I think you're missing the point I was making, and that is that there is nothing beyond nature or what is natural. And yes we can use the scientific methods of discovery when learning about religion and God and when implementing what God reveals to try to teach us. Revelation from God is simply God communicating with us, giving us thoughts and feelings from him and sometimes seeing what he can see, and communicating with God involves the same principles as communicating with anyone else, even though not everyone can receive communications from us as God can. Like how God can read my mind when I'm not even moving my lips or standing in front of him so he can see my body language. We can come pretty close it seems with cell phones these days, but still God can do some things others of us can't do now, even with all of our modern technology. But still, God is a person just as all the rest of us, his children, are also persons, and wr can communicate naturally with him, according to his natural abilities, just as we can communicate naturally with others according to each person's own natural abilities. It's just that our natural abilities haven't been developed to the point where we can communicate on the same level as God's natural abilities. But all that is going on everywhere is natural, or in accordance with the principles in all of nature. Even sin and the results of sin are natural, so the point is to develop and perfect our nature state as God's nature is perfect and perfectly good. Do you realize I was responding to mfbukowski and not to you? I am in agreement with this. As the Savior said: "By their fruits ye shall know them." Even so, sometimes the devil and his earthly servants can transform themselves into seemingly righteous angels of light, and when this happens observing more than just their outward fruits and demeanor is required to accurately discern whom and what they really are.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 It is Paul who said that when it comes to the Gospel the concerns and methods of science are not to be included in the process of truth discovery:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6) It doesn't matter if scientists say Gospel truth cannot be verified by science. The Spirit is the greatest teacher of truth and by the Spirit man can know with certainty what the truth is. One of the reasons why we go around and around in these discussions on the Gospel and science, without comity and satisfactory resolution, is because the tools and methods of truth discovery of the Gospel are not the same tools and methods of science. In science the tools are the empirical senses and instruments created to apply the scientific method; in the Gospel the tools and methods of truth discovery include righteousness, faith, hope, charity, godly wisdom, scripture study, fervent prayer and revelation from heaven. Throughout the Standard Works, all the great prophets demonstrated they couldn't care less about what science has to say about the Gospel method of truth discovery. So why should I? Read the scriptures and you'll see the Gospel method of truth discovery works without any input whatsoever from science. In fact, what I have observed is that those who overly rely on science are often stymied in their discovery of Gospel truth because they refuse to let go of science so that they might be able, with full purpose of heart, to successfully apply the tools and methods of the Gospel process of truth discovery. False and unnecessary loyalty to the scientific method tends to prevent the naturally skeptical scientist from following in the pathway of the prophets so as to gain a great and ever-expanding measure of Gospel truth. "Science this" and "science that;" I'm so glad I haven't been taken in by it. Science has done much good, but when it comes to the Gospel I say to heck with science and its clutching grip on the minds and hearts of those who might otherwise gain a sure witness and abundant measure of Gospel truth if it weren't for science's mind and spirit confining shackles. My recommendation for all those so enshackled is to throw off those mind confining chains and pursue Gospel truth free and unfettered, by enthusiastically employing the tools and methods of truth discovery prescribed in the scriptures...4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father,in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10)I couldn't agree more.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Yes righteousness is testable in a scientific sense, and you can monitor it by knowing what righteousness is and looking to see if people are living according to righteous laws. People doing good things. It's not hard to see if you know what to look for.As always I agree with you in principle, but our communications always seem to get garbled. My point was that SCIENCE has not invented a meter to measure righteousness and probably never will
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 My point is that there is no need and no good reason to draw a line and act as if God/godly/divine and nature/natural/scientifically observable and measurable phenomenon aren't on the same side of the line. God is not measurable by science, or at least every attempt so far has been futile(How do you measure something that is omnipotent?) Therefore science can not posit any God or Godlike force and still be science. Scientists of course are free to believe or not believe as is their choice(Some 40% of all US scientists are Theists). .
Bikeemikey Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 God is not measurable by science, or at least every attempt so far has been futile(How do you measure something that is omnipotent?) Therefore science can not posit any God or Godlike force and still be science. Scientists of course are free to believe or not believe as is their choice(Some 40% of all US scientists are Theists). . How many times are you going to say the same thing before you give up? Your persistence is extraordinary. I dont think those you are talking to understand the distinctions you are attempting to explain to them.
jkwilliams Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Do you realize I was responding to mfbukowski and not to you?I am in agreement with this. As the Savior said: "By their fruits ye shall know them." Even so, sometimes the devil and his earthly servants can transform themselves into seemingly righteous angels of light, and when this happens observing more than just their outward fruits and demeanor is required to accurately discern whom and what they really are. True. Some people mistakenly believe I'm a nice guy. Seriously, though, all we have to go on is what we observe in other people. Generally speaking (and I include myself), we humans are pretty poor at judging other people's character. I've misjudged people a lot in my life, and I know it has happened to me. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt until they do something that makes me reconsider. If I weren't convinced that most people were good at heart, I would probably despair of this life. Fortunately, nearly 50 years of life has taught me that people are basically good.
teddyaware Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Deleted Edited February 25, 2014 by teddyaware
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 How many times are you going to say the same thing before you give up? Your persistence is extraordinary. I dont think those you are talking to understand the distinctions you are attempting to explain to them. I know. The fox trying to get those grapes finally gave up by declaring the grapes sour. I just don't believe these "grapes" are that sour.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Do you realize I was responding to mfbukowski and not to you?I am in agreement with this. As the Savior said: "By their fruits ye shall know them." Even so, sometimes the devil and his earthly servants can transform themselves into seemingly righteous angels of light, and when this happens observing more than just their outward fruits and demeanor is required to accurately discern whom and what they really are.Yes and I still thought of something to add to our discussion, so I did.And I think a person's outward fruits and demeanor is all we need to concern ourselves with. I get bad thoughts too, sometimes, but they're no big deal as long as I don't act on them, and I prefer to simply ignore them. Edited February 25, 2014 by Ahab
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Yes and I still thought of something to add to our discussion, so I did.And I think a person's outward fruits and demeanor is all we need to concern ourselves with. I get bad thoughts too, sometimes, but they're no big deal as long as I don't act on them, and I prefer to simply ignore them. A good course of action.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 God is not measurable by science, or at least every attempt so far has been futile(How do you measure something that is omnipotent?) Therefore science can not posit any God or Godlike force and still be science. Scientists of course are free to believe or not believe as is their choice(Some 40% of all US scientists are Theists). .You can't do or say anything to support your claim that God is immeasurable. He can be seen and heard and touched and smelled and even tasted, so that's 5 ways we can sense and measure him, to some extent so all you have is your empty and false claim to the contrary.And who says he is omnipotent, anyway? Is that another claim you are making. I know he has a lot of power to do many things, but I don't claim there isn't anything he can't do. I'd rather just focus on the things I know he can do, including helping me to become as great as he is.
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 You can't do or say anything to support your claim that God is immeasurable. He can be seen and heard and touched and smelled and even tasted, so that's 5 ways we can sense and measure him, to some extent so all you have is your empty and false claim to the contrary.And who says he is omnipotent, anyway? Is that another claim you are making. I know he has a lot of power to do many things, but I don't claim there isn't anything he can't do. I'd rather just focus on the things I know he can do, including helping me to become as great as he is. Which God? Jews don't believe Jesus was a God. Muslims don't believe he was a God. Baha'i don't have our personal God but they do believe in God. So three of the four Abrahamic religions don't believe in our Gods. Do you really need to be reminded of the non Abrahamic religions? Our religion says he is omnipotent.https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=omnipotenthttp://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Omnipotent_God;_Omnipresence_of_God;_Omniscience_of_God I too hope, pray, believe that someday to be like him.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Which God? Jews don't believe Jesus was a God. Muslims don't believe he was a God. Baha'i don't have our personal God but they do believe in God. So three of the four Abrahamic religions don't believe in our Gods. Do you really need to be reminded of the non Abrahamic religions?Our religion says he is omnipotent.https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=omnipotenthttp://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Omnipotent_God;_Omnipresence_of_God;_Omniscience_of_GodI too hope, pray, believe that someday to be like him.Which God? Do I really need to explain to you the person I am talking about? No, I don't. You know who I was referring to and yet you still said he is beyond the realm of science and science can't be used to know him and things about him, which is a false statement from you.People must have different ideas about what it means to be omnipotent, because there are some things even God doesn't have the power to do.
thesometimesaint Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Which God? Do I really need to explain to you the person I am talking about? No, I don't. You know who I was referring to and yet you still said he is beyond the realm of science and science can't be used to know him and things about him, which is a false statement from you.People must have different ideas about what it means to be omnipotent, because there are some things even God doesn't have the power to do. Sure I know whom your talking about but would a non LDS Christian know it? That is the exact problem I'm talking about. Different religions claim different things about God. I seriously doubt that religious people claim that water doesn't boil at 212 degrees F at sea level, or an inch is a mile. I've never said he is beyond the realm of science. There is just no way to measure him using the rules of science that we do have. Your challenge is to find a way to measure him by using the rules of science. So far greater minds than mine have tried, but so far none have been able to do it. I don't know what you mean by omnipotent but the Scriptures do claim he is omnipotent.
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Sure I know whom your talking about but would a non LDS Christian know it? That is the exact problem I'm talking about. Different religions claim different things about God. I seriously doubt that religious people claim that water doesn't boil at 212 degrees F at sea level, or an inch is a mile.I've never said he is beyond the realm of science. There is just no way to measure him using the rules of science that we do have. Your challenge is to find a way to measure him by using the rules of science. So far greater minds than mine have tried, but so far none have been able to do it.I don't know what you mean by omnipotent but the Scriptures do claim he is omnipotent.The person I know and refer to as God is the same person you know and refer to as God, and I'm pretty sure we had both gotten to know him before we ever met and talked on this board. So that's something you can put into your scientific journal as evidence he isn't someone who exists only in your own mind. Add to that many other witnesses there are on this board who also know the same person we know, and have also communicated with him to learn the things he has taught each of us.And sure, there are other people we can get to know personally, other than him, and we can each learn what they each have to tell us, but still through it all there is that person we know, independently, and refer to as God. Edited February 25, 2014 by Ahab
Rob Osborn Posted February 25, 2014 Author Posted February 25, 2014 We measure and test all of his works. Does that count?
teddyaware Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Which God? Do I really need to explain to you the person I am talking about? No, I don't. You know who I was referring to and yet you still said he is beyond the realm of science and science can't be used to know him and things about him, which is a false statement from you.People must have different ideas about what it means to be omnipotent, because there are some things even God doesn't have the power to do.The full exercise of God's omnipotence is limited by two basic rules to which He is bound:1. He cannot do the impossible: For instance, according to Mormonism God cannot make himself immaterial, save the fallen human race by mere decree without an atonement, or transform his glorified immortal body into that of a mortal protozoa. 2. He cannot do that which is unrighteous: He cannot condemn the truly penitent follower of Christ to an eternal hell just because He feels like it; He can't deprive intelligences of their free agency without just cause; He can't tempt any of His children to commit sin. While God does have infinite and eternal power, that power can only be exercised according to the eternal laws of mercy, justice and holiness...4 And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—5 If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection ofdamnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began. (3 Nephi 28)
Ahab Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 We measure and test all of his works. Does that count? You know it does, and yet some people will tell you it doesn't.Opposition in all things, don't cha know.
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