Ahab Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 You're on the right track on this issue, Rob, although not everybody will agree with the thoughts you are sharing. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 You're on the right track on this issue, Rob, although not everybody will agree with the thoughts you are sharing. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what he is saying. Is he saying that because he doesn't know something no one will ever know it? Or because he believes in God, God must have done it though some Irreducible Complexity?
Rob Osborn Posted February 24, 2014 Author Posted February 24, 2014 I'm still trying to figure out exactly what he is saying. Is he saying that because he doesn't know something no one will ever know it? Or because he believes in God, God must have done it though some Irreducible Complexity?Its rather simple- I am stating quite simply that any action in the univers- on this planet, in nature, in churches, acts done by Christ such as miracles, etc, all have a rational and scientific explanation and must have this explanation otherwise it cannot exist. Pretty much like saying there is no such thing as real magic- making something happen outside of scientific law and principle. From every bit and piece of logic about the science of heavenly things as given us in scripture and revelation, all things obey laws and principlesa nd cannot go outside of those bounds. This includes acts such as miracles. Miracles do not happen because God uses his magic wand and "zaps" or "poofs" it into reality. When Christ healed the sick there was an actual scientific explanation and scientific process that took place on the biologic level and those healed were done so according to the laws and principles of law.
Ahab Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 I'm still trying to figure out exactly what he is saying. Is he saying that because he doesn't know something no one will ever know it? Or because he believes in God, God must have done it though some Irreducible Complexity?Basically that all things are natural or brought about by natural means so the idea that there is anything above or beyond natural (supernatural) is false. Even God is natural, just as everything is, and God uses natural means to do everything he does everywhere.It's like the difference between being God and being human, when in truth there is no difference.
Rob Osborn Posted February 24, 2014 Author Posted February 24, 2014 1. The supernatural is the only logical way to explain our ability to "choose otherwise".2. God being supernatural does not necessitate that His creations and actions also be as such - His ability to transcend the sort of "law" you describe is precisely what is being meant by supernatural.What do you mean by "his ability to transcend the sort of law"?
Ahab Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Its rather simple- I am stating quite simply that any action in the univers- on this planet, in nature, in churches, acts done by Christ such as miracles, etc, all have a rational and scientific explanation and must have this explanation otherwise it cannot exist. Pretty much like saying there is no such thing as real magic- making something happen outside of scientific law and principle.From every bit and piece of logic about the science of heavenly things as given us in scripture and revelation, all things obey laws and principlesa nd cannot go outside of those bounds. This includes acts such as miracles. Miracles do not happen because God uses his magic wand and "zaps" or "poofs" it into reality. When Christ healed the sick there was an actual scientific explanation and scientific process that took place on the biologic level and those healed were done so according to the laws and principles of law.Your thoughts apply equally well to many so-called Christians as they do to so-called scientists, who also imagine God and his powers to be outside of the natural realm. The kind of being God is is the same kind if being we are, and our Father(s) live in real places in this universe just as we do. Some people just don't see things the way they really are and they confuse imagination with reality. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 If the supernatural existed, how could we possibly know it? The only reasonable answer to that question must be "I don't know" Not that a follow-up with some speculation would be unreasonable. I think I owe you a few rep points for that one.
Rob Osborn Posted February 24, 2014 Author Posted February 24, 2014 Your thoughts apply equally well to many so-called Christians as they do to so-called scientists, who also imagine God and his powers to be outside of the natural realm. The kind of being God is is the same kind if being we are, and our Father(s) live in real places in this universe just as we do. Some people just don't see things the way they really are and they confuse imagination with reality.Its interesting that I have had dreams and visions of heaven and I tell people before they came here they were taught in schools and classroom settings, had mentors, teachers etc, and that when we leave this eart we will continue to learn, continue to express talent in working with our hands, skills etc. It generally shocks them to think life is similar in heaven as it is here minus the death and disease of mortality.
mfbukowski Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 1. The supernatural is the only logical way to explain our ability to "choose otherwise".2. God being supernatural does not necessitate that His creations and actions also be as such - His ability to transcend the sort of "law" you describe is precisely what is being meant by supernatural.Uh oh. Sounds like we have a new Neoplatonist. Welcome!
MiserereNobis Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Uh oh. Sounds like we have a new Neoplatonist. Welcome! Yee-haw! God is perfectly immanent and transcendent. Take that, suckas!
thesometimesaint Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Basically that all things are natural or brought about by natural means so the idea that there is anything above or beyond natural (supernatural) is false. Even God is natural, just as everything is, and God uses natural means to do everything he does everywhere.It's like the difference between being God and being human, when in truth there is no difference. Let's test that hypothesis. Say I'm a farmer of corn(Maize for you not American's). I want to know the effects of a certain fertilizer. So I use that fertilizer on part of my corn crop and don't on the other part. If there is a difference in results. Was it God or was it the fertilizer and how would I know it?
Ahab Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Let's test that hypothesis. Say I'm a farmer of corn(Maize for you not American's). I want to know the effects of a certain fertilizer. So I use that fertilizer on part of my corn crop and don't on the other part. If there is a difference in results. Was it God or was it the fertilizer and how would I know it?Let's see. Without God you would not have been born so there would be no you to use the fertilizer, and none of the rest of us would have been born here either. And then there is the Earth and the sun and a plant's needs for water to consider too, and how all of those things got here in the situation they are in now. So go back a little more to take all of those things into consideration before you ask that question again.
thesometimesaint Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Let's see. Without God you would not have been born so there would be no you to use the fertilizer, and none of the rest of us would have been born here either. And then there is the Earth and the sun and a plant's needs for water to consider too, and how all of those things got here in the situation they are in now. So go back a little more to take all of those things into consideration before you ask that question again. Post hoc ergo Propter hoc.
MiserereNobis Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Post hoc ergo Propter hoc. Don't muddle the issue with a dead language... 1
Bikeemikey Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 All that exists by law is natural. Just because some laws and their functions are not as yet understood by learned men does not place those laws outside the realm of nature. From God's perspective, raising the dead into glorious immortality is just as natural for him as building a computer is for us. All that exists may be part of natural law, however, as many of those laws can not be seen or understood by man they are beyond the realm of science. Overtime they will be incorporated into the realm of science, but only after they are visible. The Supernatural comprises those laws or principals that science can not see. This is only an issue if you are opposed the the idea of learning over time. What is supernatural today will be science tomorrow.
Bikeemikey Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Let's see. Without God you would not have been born so there would be no you to use the fertilizer, and none of the rest of us would have been born here either. And then there is the Earth and the sun and a plant's needs for water to consider too, and how all of those things got here in the situation they are in now. So go back a little more to take all of those things into consideration before you ask that question again. So good is an agent of context creation and not of specific action. There is a difference in the english language between asking did God make my crops grow better and does god exist.
teddyaware Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 All that exists may be part of natural law, however, as many of those laws can not be seen or understood by man they are beyond the realm of science. Overtime they will be incorporated into the realm of science, but only after they are visible. The Supernatural comprises those laws or principals that science can not see. This is only an issue if you are opposed the the idea of learning over time. What is supernatural today will be science tomorrow.Threads often get muddled and unnecessarily contentious when the participants don't start with definitions of terms upon which most can agree. Here are two a dictionary definitions for the word supernatural:1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.The original poster simply wanted to make it clear the LDS God does not violate or work outside natural law, as suggested by the world's usual definition of the word supernatural when applied to God and His works.
Bikeemikey Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Threads often get muddled and unnecessarily contentious when the participants don't start with definitions of terms upon which most can agree. Here are two a dictionary definitions for the word supernatural:1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.The original poster simply wanted to make it clear the LDS God does not violate or work outside natural law, as suggested by the world's usual definition of the word supernatural when applied to God and His works. Again I have no objection to that concept. In that sense I agree that the LDS god is not supernatural. However, the point of my post was to demonstrate that this does not make eligible the inclusion of such principles into present science. Revising the the notion supernatural must still admit that we are still unable to see/study many of these natural laws.
thesometimesaint Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Teddyaware: The definition of Supernatural that I use is "Pertaining to God".
Ahab Posted February 24, 2014 Posted February 24, 2014 Teddyaware:The definition of Supernatural that I use is "Pertaining to God".My point is that there is no need and no good reason to draw a line and act as if God/godly/divine and nature/natural/scientifically observable and measurable phenomenon aren't on the same side of the line.
Bikeemikey Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 My point is that there is no need and no good reason to draw a line and act as if God/godly/divine and nature/natural/scientifically observable and measurable phenomenon aren't on the same side of the line.Sure there is - one half we can see quantify and measure in predictable fashion and the other half is not subject to the same sort of measurement criteria.If the line is what you can see and experiment with in a controlled environment (which for science it clearly is) then it makes perfect sense to talk about these things as being on different sides of the line.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Yee-haw! God is perfectly immanent and transcendent. Take that, suckas! Uh huh. He is both A and ~A. And how he pulls it off is a "mystery". No kidding.
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 Don't muddle the issue with a dead language...
mfbukowski Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 What is supernatural today will be science tomorrow."There's a great big beautiful TomorrowShining at the end of every dayThere's a great big beautiful tomorrowAnd Tomorrow is just a dream away! Man has an idea and that's the startHe follows that dream with mind and heartAnd when that dream's a realityIt's a dream come true for you and me!"(Or something close, from my memory of great hours spent in the '60's at Disneyland) Mormon doctrine- right there Spiritual creation and organizing matter into a new world through intelligence
teddyaware Posted February 25, 2014 Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) Sure there is - one half we can see quantify and measure in predictable fashion and the other half is not subject to the same sort of measurement criteria.If the line is what you can see and experiment with in a controlled environment (which for science it clearly is) then it makes perfect sense to talk about these things as being on different sides of the line.The only reason why the "other half" is seemingly undetectable to some is because of unrighteousness. The more righteous one is the easier it is for him to discern and understand the things of God. The things of God are clearly and powerfully revealed to the righteous on a regular basis.A totally corrupt and degenerate but intelligent scientist can conduct experimentation by the scientific method and make important discoveries in spite of his unrighteousness. But the things of God can never be known by that unrighteous man no matter how hard he might try because the knowledge and the wisdom of God can only be spiritually discerned.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2)For the truly righteous (those who become saints of God through the atonement of Christ), the means to work the miraculous is no longer a mystery, and whenever it is expedient in the Lord they can do the miraculous. But unalloyed righteousness is the key.1 And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity— (3 Nephi 8:1) For those who know that true righteousness is the key to obtaining the knowledge and power of God, and then with zeal diligently pursue it, working the miracles of God becomes commonplace and all the wisdom of all the world's greatest scientists becomes nothing more than a most rudimentary and child-friendly introduction into the realm of law and truth. Without righteousness, no matter how brilliant and intelligent a man may be, all he can ever expect is a never ending process of worldly learning that will not bring him closer to the truth. But when men are truly righteous the floodgates of knowledge and wisdom are thrown wide open and men can then actually become like God -- moving mountains, causing the earth to quake and changing the courses of great rivers by mere word of the mouth. So great is the knowledge and power of the righteous that whole cities of the sanctified can be lifted up to dwell in the glorious presence of God...13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him...21 And it came to pass that the Lord showed unto Enoch all the inhabitants of the earth; and he beheld, and lo, Zion, in process of time, was taken up into heaven. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Behold mine abode forever. (Moses 7) Without a most sincere personal quest to obtain the knowledge of God through righteousness, all we are doing is spinning our wheels. Edited February 25, 2014 by teddyaware 1
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