Helen47 Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 I have been reading the Bible Unearthed and watched the long youtube video by authors Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. They write "According to the biblical narrative, the children of Israel campled at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clar from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well watered oasis of Ein el-Qudeirat in eastern Sinai, on the borde between modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably perserved ober the centuries in the name of a nearby smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a Late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavationis and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided evne the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees" PAGE 63 The Bible Unearthed. They find no evidence for a number of other sites. Perhaps Robert Smith has the counter evidence?
Buzzard Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 I believe that the Exodus did happen, and that Moses was a real person. But when anti's go off on there being no archeological evidence of the BOM, I cite the fact that there is not evidence for the Exodus, Israel in Egypt, Abraham, and a host of other biblical episodes. The amazing thing is that most of them don't believe me.
Helen47 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Posted February 12, 2014 Can you take me to where Zarahemla was?
strappinglad Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Pray tell, which of the mountains is the correct Mt. Sinai ? I'll give you one possibility to research. Go to www.anchorstone and see what evidence they put out for the Mt. they chose. If we have the correct place for the encampment , then there will be evidence. If we don't, there will be none. I think the same holds for Zarahemla. One thing about encampments, they could be smelled long before they could be seen.
Duncan Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Read Prof. Kenneth Kitchen's book, On the Reliability of the Old Testament.
Palerider Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) I believe that the Exodus did happen, and that Moses was a real person. But when anti's go off on there being no archeological evidence of the BOM, I cite the fact that there is not evidence for the Exodus, Israel in Egypt, Abraham, and a host of other biblical episodes. The amazing thing is that most of them don't believe me. There is however indisputable, direct, evidence for many portions of the Bible which is agreed upon by scholars. For example the Tel Dan Stele dated to approx. the 9th century B.C. mentions the House of David. So it is an independent corroboration of a portion of the Bible. This is significant in that, at a minimum, it gives the Bible empirical adequacy with the hope of finding more. The same would apply to the wailing walls at Jerusalem, etc. Unfortunately there is absolutely nothing that any scholar (Mormon or otherwise) can point to that definitively identifies itself as being of "Nephite" or "Lamanite" culture. The best that can be pointed to (and it's a real stretch) is totally circumstantial in nature. In other words we can say, "Yes, there were ancient civilizations here in the Americas as the BofM states." Which is a lot like saying that the story of the Wizard of OZ is true because Kansas does have county fairs with balloon rides......... Edited February 12, 2014 by Palerider 1
Helen47 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Posted February 12, 2014 If our house were to suffer from an earthquake and be buried in the ground in 10000 years they did an archaeological dig they would find a concrete floor, bits of a barbie doll. spoons and forks thrown out by the baby, bones given to the dog.There would be some evidence that we lived there. A huge population of people would leave all kinds of evidence.
rodheadlee Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 If our house were to suffer from an earthquake and be buried in the ground in 10000 years they did an archaeological dig they would find a concrete floor, bits of a barbie doll. spoons and forks thrown out by the baby, bones given to the dog.There would be some evidence that we lived there. A huge population of people would leave all kinds of evidence.Yes but could they tell if you were Mormon, Catholic or atheist?
Popular Post EllenMaksoud Posted February 12, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2014 I have been reading the Bible Unearthed and watched the long youtube video by authors Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. They write "According to the biblical narrative, the children of Israel campled at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clar from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well watered oasis of Ein el-Qudeirat in eastern Sinai, on the borde between modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably perserved ober the centuries in the name of a nearby smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a Late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavationis and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided evne the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees" PAGE 63 The Bible Unearthed. They find no evidence for a number of other sites. Perhaps Robert Smith has the counter evidence?OH, it only gets worse. I was watching a BBC documentary about the Muslims in Southern Spain, the Moors. He was walking through the ruins of a huge Moorish Palace and turning to look in the camera, said, "Though we do not know the purpose of any of these rooms ..." He was speaking of a building that was occupied in 1200 AD. Hmmmm If we can't suss out history from a building in that era, then how can we understand anything at all for the era you speak of? It has become really clear to me that loving God, and being good to each other is about the only thing we can be certain of. 5
Gray Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 It seems unlikely that there was an exodus or a historical Moses, but I'm not sure that's really the point of the story
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 There is however indisputable, direct, evidence for many portions of the Bible which is agreed upon by scholars. For example the Tel Dan Stele dated to approx. the 9th century B.C. mentions the House of David. So it is an independent corroboration of a portion of the Bible. This is significant in that, at a minimum, it gives the Bible empirical adequacy with the hope of finding more. The same would apply to the wailing walls at Jerusalem, etc. Unfortunately there is absolutely nothing that any scholar (Mormon or otherwise) can point to that definitively identifies itself as being of "Nephite" or "Lamanite" culture. The best that can be pointed to (and it's a real stretch) is totally circumstantial in nature. In other words we can say, "Yes, there were ancient civilizations here in the Americas as the BofM states." Which is a lot like saying that the story of the Wizard of OZ is true because Kansas does have county fairs with balloon rides.........Nice narrative. There is indeed evidence and I know you have read that that at least plausibly explains the Nephites in Meso America. And not it is not circumstantial. What a funny guy you are PR. 1
Duncan Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 If our house were to suffer from an earthquake and be buried in the ground in 10000 years they did an archaeological dig they would find a concrete floor, bits of a barbie doll. spoons and forks thrown out by the baby, bones given to the dog.There would be some evidence that we lived there. A huge population of people would leave all kinds of evidence. that's your house though. What makes you think that the early Israelites , who were on the run in the desert, made concrete houses? Sounds to me they were nomadic and carried everything with them, leaving no traces of them ever being there. Theri tracks would be covered over probably as soon as they made them
Palerider Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Nice narrative. There is indeed evidence and I know you have read that that at least plausibly explains the Nephites in Meso America. And not it is not circumstantial. What a funny guy you are PR. Unfortunately for you, "plausibility" in these cases is nothing more than wishful thinking. You could try crossing your fingers, closing your eyes and straining real hard to see if that helps "funny guy" but I doubt it. As I said, absolutely no evidence that can be directly attributed to Lamanite or Nephite culture. Either show us all or back off your statement. Edited February 12, 2014 by Palerider
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 that's your house though. What makes you think that the early Israelites , who were on the run in the desert, made concrete houses? Sounds to me they were nomadic and carried everything with them, leaving no traces of them ever being there. Theri tracks would be covered over probably as soon as they made them It is entirely possible they left no physical remains for us to find. or at least not where we're looking. But I think it is a jump in logic to assume they did or didn't exist based only on that lack of evidence.
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Unfortunately for you, "plausibility" in these cases is nothing more than wishful thinking. You could try crossing your fingers, closing your eyes and straining real hard to see if that helps "funny guy" but I doubt it. As I said, absolutely no evidence that can be directly attributed to Lamanite or Nephite culture. Either show us all or back off your statement. SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml
Palerider Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Yes but could they tell if you were Mormon, Catholic or atheist? It isn't out of the realm of possibility. All they would have to come across is one gold cross, an angel moroni necklace; if the conditons were right even a book could be preserved like the dead sea scrolls. So I wouldn't absolutely rule it out.
Duncan Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 It is entirely possible they left no physical remains for us to find. or at least not where we're looking. But I think it is a jump in logic to assume they did or didn't exist based only on that lack of evidence. I fully believe in the exodus! I just don't think they would have left much of anything to find afterwards 1
Palerider Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) SEE http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml First line from the linked website: " Part one discusses some of the many factors supporting the plausibility of the Book of Mormon as an ancient document." I'm so sorry for you guys. All you have here is conjecture. As I said before, all you have is evidence of ancient civilizations in the Americas, none of which can be definitively linked to the Lamanite or Nephite theory. Columbus almost knew this much when he landed in the New World. He didn't need the BofM to tell him........ There is NO concrete BofM evidence, especially when compared to the real evidence that archeologically supports parts of the Bible Edited February 12, 2014 by Palerider
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Did the exodus happen? YesDid Moses exist? YesDid the flood happen? YesDid Noah exist? YesDid Adam & Eve exist? YesWere they the first people on earth 6000 years ago? YesAre parts of the OT symbolic instead of historical? YesAre parts of the OT historical instead of symbolic? Yes Is there scientific or historical proof of these events? NoCan science/history be reconciled with scripture? NoDoes it matter? NoDoes it mean scripture is wrong? No ***-please note all statements are the opinion of this poster and any resemblance to academia should be taken out and whipped. Edited February 12, 2014 by JLHPROF
Helen47 Posted February 12, 2014 Author Posted February 12, 2014 How did they handle waste management services? Did holes?
Duncan Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 How did they handle waste management services? Did holes? why not? people do it for camping all the time
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 First line from the linked website: " Part one discusses some of the many factors supporting the plausibility of the Book of Mormon as an ancient document." I'm so sorry for you guys. All you have here is conjecture. As I said before, all you have is evidence of ancient civilizations in the Americas, none of which can be definitively linked to the Lamanite or Nephite theory. Columbus almost knew this much when he landed in the New World. He didn't need the BofM to tell him........ There is NO concrete BofM evidence, especially when compared to the real evidence that archeologically supports parts of the Bible When were talking ancient history all we are talking about is plausibility. Cristoforo Colombo thought to his dying day he'd landed in India. Speaking of concrete. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_architecture
bluebell Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 If our house were to suffer from an earthquake and be buried in the ground in 10000 years they did an archaeological dig they would find a concrete floor, bits of a barbie doll. spoons and forks thrown out by the baby, bones given to the dog.There would be some evidence that we lived there. A huge population of people would leave all kinds of evidence. Besides the obvious question of 'what would evidence for the BOM look like?', as well as the issue of how archaeology differs in the climate of Central and South America compared to the Middle East, this whole idea that you can know how valid a religion is by what is left of it's ancient sites hundreds of years later is kind of ridiculous. I have no idea how Christians don't see the hole they dig for themselves when they try to use this line of reasoning. Yes, according to your hypothetical above, there would be evidence that we existed, but that, of course, does not prove that our religious beliefs, or whatever God we worship, existed. After all, we all know that the Parthenon exists, but none of us worship Zeus, or believe that the survival of that building means a darn thing when it comes to the ancient religion of the Greeks. Unless you are willing to admit that the existence of Stonehenge is evidence that the Druid religion is true, then please don't use evidence that Jerusalem exists as evidence that Christianity is true. I completely believe that Christianity is true, but it would be as dumb of me to try to prove that by using the existence of Solomon's temple as it would be for someone to try to prove that the God Apollo is real by using the existence of Troy. And likewise, if the existence of ancient places connected with a religion doesn't mean squat in regards to the truth claims of that religion, than lack of knowledge concerning ancient places connect with a religion don't mean squat either. 1
Anteojito Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Additionally, there is no evidence that the Jews were ever held captive in Egypt.
JLHPROF Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Additionally, there is no evidence that the Jews were ever held captive in Egypt. There was also no evidence in western civilization's history books and records of the American continent until Columbus landed there.Imagine what we'll discover tomorrow. 2
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