Sunday School And A Worldwide Flood (Pt.3)

[Flyonthewall]

Hey, "Fly"!

 

I was starting to worry someone'd swatted you!  Good to "Cyber-see" you again!

Thanks...nice to be noticed. As you can see by my avatar, sometimes I feel a little "swatted".

[Flyonthewall]

I find comfort in the stories told in the Scriptures, but no I don't believe they are all literal fact.

I find comfort in the stories told in the Scriptures too, and it doesn't bother me that some or all did not occur exactly as described.

The creation story I take as symbolic but it still describes something that actually happened....the "how" isn't important, more importantly is that it did.

[bcuzbcuz]

And then the rains came down. Where would you have been if you lived in Naoh's day- a true believer or a naysayer? Everyone must have laughed when Noah went around warning everyone about the flood.

You can do all the complicated math you want on population estimates. All we know, as LDS is that Egypt came into existence through Ham's lineage afterthe flood by Egyptus. We would bestupid to assume we know anything about how old people really used to live in ancient times.

 

Well, since nobody believed Noah, except for his wife and his sons, neither you nor I would have been on the boat.

 

The Egyptians kept very good records of how long their king's lived, and only one of them made it past 90. The average age of the general population was less than 40. Children's births were recorded but the child didn't receive a name until several years of age since at least 30% of children never made it past 5 years of age. The Israelites kept no records and the stories were put together and written many centuries after the fact. That much we know. But you accept the Biblical record and throw out the Egyptian.

[Rob Osborn]

Well, since nobody believed Noah, except for his wife and his sons, neither you nor I would have been on the boat.

 

The Egyptians kept very good records of how long their king's lived, and only one of them made it past 90. The average age of the general population was less than 40. Children's births were recorded but the child didn't receive a name until several years of age since at least 30% of children never made it past 5 years of age. The Israelites kept no records and the stories were put together and written many centuries after the fact. That much we know. But you accept the Biblical record and throw out the Egyptian.

I will believe the scriptures over the other you bet.

[Brian 2.0]

Deleted. Didn't see that there were multiple pages to this thread and this point has been covered.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[Brian 2.0]

I will believe the scriptures over the other you bet.

Is it safe to say that there is no scientific based evidence that exist now, or could ever exist in the future, that could change your opinion of the reality of the global flood?

[teddyaware]

If it turned out Genesis was mostly mythical material used by God to speak to nascent Israel in their language, context,  and needs, and that God has approved our adapting and updating the stories to speak to us in our day ... would it cause you to discount your personal experiences and faith in Christ? If so, why?

It would bother me because Christ, Peter, Paul, Alma, Moroni, Joseph F. Smith and Moses all taught of the reality of the flood long after the days of "nascent Israel."

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24)

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17)

9 For this, the waters of Noah unto me, for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee. (3 Nephi 22)

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringingin the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Peter 2)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3)

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Hebrews 11)

22 Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword. (Alma 10)

7 And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters. (Ether 6)

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.(D&C 138)

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them. (Moses 7)

27 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its away upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth. (Moses 8

Now I have a question for you: How do you think doubters in the flood should feel after hearing of its reality from so many unimpeachable witnesses?

Edited February 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

[David T]

It would bother me because Christ, Peter, Paul, Alma, Moroni, Joseph F. Smith and Moses all taught of the reality of the flood long after the days of "nascent Israel."

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24)

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17)

9 For this, the waters of Noah unto me, for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee. (3 Nephi 22)

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringingin the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Peter 2)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3)

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Hebrews 11)

22 Yea, and I say unto you that if it were not for the prayers of the righteous, who are now in the land, that ye would even now be visited with utter destruction; yet it would not be by flood, as were the people in the days of Noah, but it would be by famine, and by pestilence, and the sword. (Alma 10)

7 And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters. (Ether 6)

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.(D&C 138)

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them. (Moses 7)

27 And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its away upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth. (Moses 8

Now I have a question for you: How do you think doubters in the flood should feel after hearing of its reality from so many unimpeachable witnesses?

If you mean witnesses who read the canonical story just like we can, and used the familiar imagery to illustrate a theological point, I don't see that as support for the events behind the text more than support that the text existed and was read then. Which was never under dispute.

[teddyaware]

If you mean witnesses who read the canonical story just like we can, and used the familiar imagery to illustrate a theological point, I don't see that as support for the events behind the text more than support that the text existed and was read then. Which was never under dispute.

I'm speaking more particularly of the testimony of Christ. How does one get around that one? Was he just another gullible believer in tall tales?

[Rob Osborn]

Is it safe to say that there is no scientific based evidence that exist now, or could ever exist in the future, that could change your opinion of the reality of the global flood?

I have studied it out for myself and have come to the cunclusion based entirely upon logic and principle that the evidence in the world is best viewed as being the testimony of the global flood. What really did it for me was going to the Grand Canyon and seeing all of the layers built up and exposed. There is just no way that these thick deposits were laid down in some gradual slow process over millions of years. It is so obvious to me that this is the result of catastrophic geologic events. From that point on, everywhere I go (I travel the west very extensively) I see these same testimonies of large exposed layers of sediment- its literally everywhere. I see the case for catastrophic uplift just as is spoken of in the Book of Mormon and know that God isn't trying to trick us. There is so much overwhelming evidence for the flood and catastrophic uplifts shortly after that in my mind there is no doubt of the global flood. So, no, there is no scientific theories put forth that could change my mind. Their evidence lacks the critical principled logic. Of course this is very paramount because if the flood was indeed global as I believe it is, then evolution is false as the evidence for it - the fossils in the geologic column, are nothing more than yet again the testimony of the flood event and nothing more. he global flood is a gamechanger for geology, evolution, etc because it truly shows how very little mans understanding is of reality.

[canard78]

Egypt didnt come into existence until after the flood. Whatever chronologies they may have can only be traced back to Noah. Anything else isnt correct.

You're a real hoot. You have a jaw-dropping ability to form a view of the world in spite of the evidence.

What about the chinese? Are their histories also fabrications.

Huge flooding has an impact on cultures and communities and is likely to stay long in society's memory.

The Chinese have a flood legend that is dates to about 10,000 years ago. Fu Xi and Nu Wa, brother and sister, were the sole survivors of a flood and permitted by their god to restart humanity. To speed up the process they made some humans out of clay.

In a neat coincidence they are often depicted holding a compass and a square (representing the earth and the heavens).

Should the Chinese read that literally? They certainly don't. Why should we read the flood literally?

[canard78]

I have studied it out for myself and have come to the cunclusion based entirely upon logic and principle that the evidence in the world is best viewed as being the testimony of the global flood. What really did it for me was going to the Grand Canyon and seeing all of the layers built up and exposed. There is just no way that these thick deposits were laid down in some gradual slow process over millions of years. It is so obvious to me that this is the result of catastrophic geologic events. From that point on, everywhere I go (I travel the west very extensively) I see these same testimonies of large exposed layers of sediment- its literally everywhere. I see the case for catastrophic uplift just as is spoken of in the Book of Mormon and know that God isn't trying to trick us. There is so much overwhelming evidence for the flood and catastrophic uplifts shortly after that in my mind there is no doubt of the global flood. So, no, there is no scientific theories put forth that could change my mind. Their evidence lacks the critical principled logic. Of course this is very paramount because if the flood was indeed global as I believe it is, then evolution is false as the evidence for it - the fossils in the geologic column, are nothing more than yet again the testimony of the flood event and nothing more. he global flood is a gamechanger for geology, evolution, etc because it truly shows how very little mans understanding is of reality.

The Grand Canyon did indeed happen through catastrophic geographic events.

But not ones that happened a mere 4,000 years ago.

I also find it odd that you cite evolution in your argument FOR the flood.

With a boat full of animals landing in the Middle East, how on earth did the amazing diversity millions of different animals (often limited to a single island in the pacific) happen?

What did the carnivores eat for over a month? What about animals that have a very specific diet? Did Noah have two pandas AND a couple of tonnes of live bamboo?

[David T]

I'm speaking more particularly of the testimony of Christ. How does one get around that one? Was he just another gullible believer in tall tales?

 

Why the loaded language of "gullible"? While Jesus likely had no reason to question the story during his 1st Century CE ministry, even if he did understand it different than all of his contemporaries, would not it have still served him better to use their known symbols and sacred stories to illustrate his message?  There is more than one case of Jesus creatively reinterpreting scriptural text using accepted midrashic tropes. Jesus used parables - made up stories - to teach symbolic lessons. Our prophets and Apostles today quote from Les Miserables, Sheakespearian Plays, and LifeCall commercials. God - and Christ - is not beyond using the people's language and culture (stories are part of that) in creative ways to get our minds thinking about sacred Truths. Whether he understood the stories as being historical or not is actually irrelevent to me. Although I'd think, in mortality, he likely had no serious reason to question otherwise.

[Bikeemikey]

You're a real hoot. You have a jaw-dropping ability to form a view of the world in spite of the evidence.

What about the chinese? Are their histories also fabrications.

Huge flooding has an impact on cultures and communities and is likely to stay long in society's memory.

The Chinese have a flood legend that is dates to about 10,000 years ago. Fu Xi and Nu Wa, brother and sister, were the sole survivors of a flood and permitted by their god to restart humanity. To speed up the process they made some humans out of clay.

In a neat coincidence they are often depicted holding a compass and a square (representing the earth and the heavens).

Should the Chinese read that literally? They certainly don't. Why should we read the flood literally?

The Chinese character for boat is a water vessel with 8 mouths in it... Coincidence?

The lived through the flood - that is indisputable.

[Bikeemikey]

Why the loaded language of "gullible"? While Jesus likely had no reason to question the story during his 1st Century CE ministry, even if he did understand it different than all of his contemporaries, would not it have still served him better to use their known symbols and sacred stories to illustrate his message? There is more than one case of Jesus creatively reinterpreting scriptural text using accepted midrashic tropes. Jesus used parables - made up stories - to teach symbolic lessons. Our prophets and Apostles today quote from Les Miserables, Sheakespearian Plays, and LifeCall commercials. God - and Christ - is not beyond using the people's language and culture (stories are part of that) in creative ways to get our minds thinking about sacred Truths. Whether he understood the stories as being historical or not is actually irrelevent to me. Although I'd think, in mortality, he likely had no serious reason to question otherwise.

Can't rep point from my phone - but great post.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[teddyaware]

Why the loaded language of "gullible"? While Jesus likely had no reason to question the story during his 1st Century CE ministry, even if he did understand it different than all of his contemporaries, would not it have still served him better to use their known symbols and sacred stories to illustrate his message?  There is more than one case of Jesus creatively reinterpreting scriptural text using accepted midrashic tropes. Jesus used parables - made up stories - to teach symbolic lessons. Our prophets and Apostles today quote from Les Miserables, Sheakespearian Plays, and LifeCall commercials. God - and Christ - is not beyond using the people's language and culture (stories are part of that) in creative ways to get our minds thinking about sacred Truths. Whether he understood the stories as being historical or not is actually irrelevent to me. Although I'd think, in mortality, he likely had no serious reason to question otherwise.

I can't imagine living on such shaky and unstable Gospel ground. In spite of all the scriptural references I supplied -- including Joseph F. Smith's testimony that it was the destruction of the wicked in the flood of Noah's day that proved to be the scriptural springboard to his receiving the vision of the redemption of the dead as recorded D&C 138 -- you still insist the flood is just a myth? The fact that we're taught all those wicked who died in the flood were eventually taught the Gospel that they might escape the spirit prison must now also be suspect? Where does all this end -- with the restored Gospel of Christ totally dismantled? With this approach, rather than the Gospel being a stable rock it becomes an undulating, storm-tossed sea of endless doubt.

 

I consider the eventual creation of a mighty super race of millions of immortal celestial beings, raised from the dust in the twinkling of an eye in the resurrection, to be a much greater miracle than the flood of Noah's day. Do you consider the instantaneous resurrection of millions of the dead to celestial glory to be believable, or is this teaching also just constructive myth of folklore?

Edited February 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[MichelleD]

I know that those on here who still believe in a global flood will just think my comment is simple minded. But, what caused me to stop believing in it was thinking about all the small children, pregnant women, and so on that God would have killed by causing the flood. Is that who you really want to worship? A God who would do that?

We always envision only the men and a few women wickedly taunting Noah as he built the ark. What about all of the thousands of innocent children who weren't invited onto the ark? THAT is what bothered me most.

[Rob Osborn]

You're a real hoot. You have a jaw-dropping ability to form a view of the world in spite of the evidence.

What about the chinese? Are their histories also fabrications.

Huge flooding has an impact on cultures and communities and is likely to stay long in society's memory.

The Chinese have a flood legend that is dates to about 10,000 years ago. Fu Xi and Nu Wa, brother and sister, were the sole survivors of a flood and permitted by their god to restart humanity. To speed up the process they made some humans out of clay.

In a neat coincidence they are often depicted holding a compass and a square (representing the earth and the heavens).

Should the Chinese read that literally? They certainly don't. Why should we read the flood literally?

Because its the word of God and it is our doctrine.

[Rob Osborn]

I know that those on here who still believe in a global flood will just think my comment is simple minded. But, what caused me to stop believing in it was thinking about all the small children, pregnant women, and so on that God would have killed by causing the flood. Is that who you really want to worship? A God who would do that?

We always envision only the men and a few women wickedly taunting Noah as he built the ark. What about all of the thousands of innocent children who weren't invited onto the ark? THAT is what bothered me most.

Perhaps you may not know but those who were righteous in Noah's day before the flood were caught up to heaven- they didn't perish in the flood waters.

[ALarson]

Because its the word of God and it is our doctrine.

Doctrine?  I don't think so.  Maybe many still hold onto this belief, but it's not doctrine.  In a recent Sunday School class over half there no longer believe in a global flood.

 

This is from FAIR:

 

Latter-day Saints believe that the prophet Noah existed, and that he was commanded to build an ark and save his family from a flood. A belief that this flood was global in nature is not a requirement for Latter-day Saints; traditionally, many earlier members and leaders endorsed the global flood views common in society and Christendom generally. The accumulation of additional scientific information have led some to conclude that a local flood — one limited to the area in which Noah lived — is the best explanation of the available data. People of either view can be members in good standing.

 

[MichelleD]

Perhaps you may not know but those who were righteous in Noah's day before the flood were caught up to heaven- they didn't perish in the flood waters.

No, I've never heard that before. CFR please (statements by current church leaders if you have any). Thanks!

[teddyaware]

I know that those on here who still believe in a global flood will just think my comment is simple minded. But, what caused me to stop believing in it was thinking about all the small children, pregnant women, and so on that God would have killed by causing the flood. Is that who you really want to worship? A God who would do that?

We always envision only the men and a few women wickedly taunting Noah as he built the ark. What about all of the thousands of innocent children who weren't invited onto the ark? THAT is what bothered me most.

What about all the innocent children who died in the cities that were destroyed in ancient America, just before the resurrected Lord appeared to the surviving Nephites who weren't destroyed in the cataclysmic convulsions of nature recorded in 3 Nephi?

Edited February 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

No, I've never heard that before. CFR please (statements by current church leaders if you have any). Thanks!

25 And he (Enoch) saw angels descending out of heaven; and he heard a loud voice saying: Wo, wo be untothe inhabitants of the earth.

26 And he beheld Satan; and he had a great chain in his hand, and it veiled the whole face of the earthwith darkness; and he looked up and laughed, and his angels rejoiced.

27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion. (Moses 7)

[MichelleD]

Rob, I see where it states this happiness with Enoch (Moses 17:2). Is that what you're referring to? These were people who accepted the gospel. No mention of all the infants, young children or pregnant women (who didnt accept the gospel).

CFR for church leader's statements that the children were taken up prior to the flood. Thanks again.