EllenMaksoud Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) I have been approached with a story that seems too lurid to be true, so I ask our experts to comment on this. Warren Snow was Bishop of the Church at Manti, San Pete County, Utah. I do not wish to say why this man is infamous, but experts will know the story. This is too much; right out of the chamber of horrors. I am not inclined to believe this because of the Medical Issues involved. Humans die rather easily from shock, and this would certainly induce such. It would take some rather advanced medical knowlege to tie off the bleeders. I have seen cattle castrated and the often do go into shock, but somehow survive it with very little medical attention. Unless you are in the Middle East and a woman, humans are not cattle. Edited February 7, 2014 by EllenMaksoud
mercyngrace Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Crime_and_violence/Castration_in_the_1800's
Okrahomer Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Crime_and_violence/Castration_in_the_1800's Mercyngrace: has the article been removed?
ALarson Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Yes, this did occur but not on the approval of the church leaders (at least as far I have seen...I'm not all that well read on this topic). Bishop Warren Snow was WAY out of line, of course!! I'm not sure if he was ever punished. See also the Henry Jones case (he was castrated and then later murdered along with his mother in Payson, Utah).
mercyngrace Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Mercyngrace: has the article been removed? No idea - I just googled and found that link to the fair article...
Okrahomer Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 FairMormon's article is here. Unfortunately it is a bit inaccurate as there is no evidence that Thomas Lewis was ever accused of a sexual crime. Thank you! For some reason, I could not get the other link to work.
cinepro Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Also, from the date (1856), it would appear that this took place during the "Mormon Reformation" Those few years were a time of exceptionally zealous pressure, and people did things that they might otherwise not have. So it shouldn't just be written off as "crazy Mormons" or "Frontier Justice". There were specific cultural and religious pressures in play. This is a good article on the subject: Wilford Woodruff and the Mormon Reformation of 1855-1857 Edited February 7, 2014 by cinepro 1
EllenMaksoud Posted February 7, 2014 Author Posted February 7, 2014 Also, from the date (1856), it would appear that this took place during the "Mormon Reformation" Those few years were a time of exceptionally zealous pressure, and people did things that they might otherwise not have. So it shouldn't just be written off as "crazy Mormons" or "Frontier Justice". There were specific cultural and religious pressures in play. This is a good article on the subject: Wilford Woodruff and the Mormon Reformation of 1855-1857I did see something about D&C 156, or so, not sure, where the author was speaking of killing the non compliant. I do not know if it was an actual part of the church because my D&C only goes out to 138. Again, my back up for things like this is "what the church is today". If mistakes were made in the LDS church, then those critical of us only need to look at the Inquisition, the persecustion of Martin Luther, Wycliffe, and others to see that humans are shot through with weaknesses. As to the castration, I know people who insist it is the best thing that ever happened to them. Being past reproductive age, they do not care.
Calm Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) http://en.fairmormon.org/Utah/Crime_and_violence/Castration_in_the_1800%27sSee someone got the right one already...sorry for the duplication. "Thank you! For some reason, I could not get the other link to work."The last part had for some reason been glitched out of the URL as you can tell by its being black and not in the same colour as the link. Edited February 7, 2014 by calmoriah
Calm Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 FairMormon's article is here. Unfortunately it is a bit inaccurate as there is no evidence that Thomas Lewis was ever accused of a sexual crime.I will bring this to the attention of the wiki workers...thank you
Calm Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 See also the Henry Jones case (he was castrated and then later murdered along with his mother in Payson, Utah).From the same page..."There is an account in Hosea Stout's diary which reads:Saturday 27 Feb. 1858: "This evening several persons disguised as Indians entered Henry Jones' house and dragged him out of bed with a whore and castrated him by a square & close amputation."Jones was later killed, and the anti-Mormon newspaper Valley Tan printed an affidavit from Nathaniel Case claiming that Jones' bishop had plotted his death with several other members.[3] If true, Jones was not attacked for trying to marry someone, but for adultery with a prostitute. Reportedly, the murder of Jones and his mother sprang from accusations of incest.[4]There is no evidence linking the attack on Jones to anyone but local members. Joseph Hancock was found guilty of second degree murder in 1890.[5]"
Calm Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 I did see something about D&C 156, or so, not sure, where the author was speaking of killing the non compliant. I do not know if it was an actual part of the church because my D&C only goes out to 138..If you come across something over 138, it is not from the LDS version. There are splinter churches that have their own revelations that should not be confused as authoritative.This may help in identifying in the future, but the easiest way is if it isn't in your current one you got from church members or missionaries and it has a later date, it's not LDS:http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Doctrine_and_Covenants_Editions
EllenMaksoud Posted February 7, 2014 Author Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) If you come across something over 138, it is not from the LDS version. There are splinter churches that have their own revelations that should not be confused as authoritative.This may help in identifying in the future, but the easiest way is if it isn't in your current one you got from church members or missionaries and it has a later date, it's not LDS:http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Doctrine_and_Covenants_EditionsMormons have healed me in a wonderful way. I have some trust for men now. I do, however know a couple of men in the church, that I would never confront. It seems logical that every Mormon that went through the early years and got to SLC probably had PTSD. They had to fight for existence right up through 1900, and to this day still face those who try to exercise unrighteous dominion over the church. In my experience, Mormons are the nicest people I have ever met. People who have faced adversity and survived can afford to be caring and nice because they have faced the enemy. Below that lies cold hard steel. I am not completely sure there is a place for me in the church. Edited February 7, 2014 by EllenMaksoud
Calm Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 . I am not completely sure there is a place for me in the church.If you believe in the faith that is taught, there is a place forever though you may have to work at creating your own unique relationship with the community that works for you.If one accepted some of the faith as truth, but have doubts about the rest (the important stuff, not the speculative add ons)....then I could see wondering if one really belonged. What matters is not how well one socially fits in, but whether one wants to live in the covenants that one has made with God through the ordinances available through the Church.
Coreyb Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Mormons have healed me in a wonderful way. I have some trust for men now. I do, however know a couple of men in the church, that I would never confront. It seems logical that every Mormon that went through the early years and got to SLC probably had PTSD. They had to fight for existence right up through 1900, and to this day still face those who try to exercise unrighteous dominion over the church. In my experience, Mormons are the nicest people I have ever met. People who have faced adversity and survived can afford to be caring and nice because they have faced the enemy. Below that lies cold hard steel. I am not completely sure there is a place for me in the church.Not sure what you mean by "cold hard steal", but there is a place for everyone in the church, including you. Sometimes it takes a while to see where your experience and talents will be best used to build up the kingdom, but I have a firm conviction that there is a place, and maybe several. Your topics and comments have a place on this board if nothing else. I know they are greatly appreciated
EllenMaksoud Posted February 7, 2014 Author Posted February 7, 2014 If you believe in the faith that is taught, there is a place forever though you may have to work at creating your own unique relationship with the community that works for you.If one accepted some of the faith as truth, but have doubts about the rest (the important stuff, not the speculative add ons)....then I could see wondering if one really belonged. What matters is not how well one socially fits in, but whether one wants to live in the covenants that one has made with God through the ordinances available through the Church.I absolutely believe in the church in all aspects and obey the covenants. There are some very few that have insenuated that I belong to the church for what it can give me in terms of paying my bills and giving me food. Truth is that financially, I do not need the church. This drives these two individuals mad. Their thinking is in the 19th century and I feel sorry for them. I perform my callings and rarely ever say no. Thankfully they have no authority over me. There is one final issue, and it is clear to me that when there is a President that is my age, in about 20 years, justice will be served. I can wait because Heavenly Father is my strength.
EllenMaksoud Posted February 7, 2014 Author Posted February 7, 2014 Not sure what you mean by "cold hard steal", but there is a place for everyone in the church, including you. Sometimes it takes a while to see where your experience and talents will be best used to build up the kingdom, but I have a firm conviction that there is a place, and maybe several. Your topics and comments have a place on this board if nothing else. I know they are greatly appreciated Thank you. I must admit that I am so full of pain medications that I should lock myself in my room. I would ground myself for a few days.
cinepro Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 If mistakes were made in the LDS church, then those critical of us only need to look at the Inquisition, the persecustion of Martin Luther, Wycliffe, and others to see that humans are shot through with weaknesses. That only works if you are expecting no more from the LDS church's leadership as you are from the Catholics.
ERMD Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Highly unlikely that castrating a male would result in enough blood loss to cause hemorrhagic shock or death.
EllenMaksoud Posted February 8, 2014 Author Posted February 8, 2014 Highly unlikely that castrating a male would result in enough blood loss to cause hemorrhagic shock or death.What? Looking at your user name, does that imply that you are an ER Doctor?
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