The Nature Of The Holy Spirit

[CV75]

I think that this can be solved simply by determining if light (the activities of the brain are largely dynamic activities of light pulses and electrical currents) is spirit, If light is spirit, then we may conclude the things we imagine actually do exist within the mind as impressions or visualizations that are made of light or spirit. Here's some support for this idea:

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ. (D&C 84)

 

And remember, it was the Lord who taught Joseph Smith that all spirit is matter, but matter that is too fine and pure to be discerned by scientific observation. 

 

Remarkably, the Lord taught Joseph Smith that even His voice is Spirit. Get a load of this:

66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

 

So even the sound of the voice -- either the human voice we hear on earth, or the Lord's voice that we can usually only discern with our spirit -- is also a manifestation of either gross matter of the highly refined matter we call the Spirit.

Yes, sound, like light, is both energy and matter, and energy and even space can be considered to be “more refined” matter.

But what about the message, the expression and the meaning which are carried by the voice? What about the agency and faith that define the various parameters in the transmission and reception of the message? If both we and God are co-eternal agents, our relationship has to consist of more than particle-on-particle transactions since that would be a one-way deal due to the power differential. When the scriptures speak of reality (things as they really are), I think they refer to things that are of matter and non- matter, or a bit of both.

Back to my “string” analogy/question: do you view things like faith and laws as ultra-refined substances that God uses to govern all that is and is helping us learn to manage? Another way to put it, do you envision the process of sanctification as God pulling and availing certain palpable (on some ultra-refined level) “strings” of godliness attached to protégés that are trying to abide or reject these laws?

[CV75]

Anotehr thought: Perhaps the more refined and pure the matter, the less it behaves like matter or can even be considered matter, to the point it is not matter at all. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It just means that the material and the immaterial are subsets of something else entirely. I don’t know what to call it, but God embodies it, and in some ways He is a tangible being (body of element, spirit of matter), and in others, He is intangible attributes such as love, holiness, mission, glory, etc.

[teddyaware]

Yes, sound, like light, is both energy and matter, and energy and even space can be considered to be “more refined” matter.

But what about the message, the expression and the meaning which are carried by the voice? What about the agency and faith that define the various parameters in the transmission and reception of the message? If both we and God are co-eternal agents, our relationship has to consist of more than particle-on-particle transactions since that would be a one-way deal due to the power differential. When the scriptures speak of reality (things as they really are), I think they refer to things that are of matter and non- matter, or a bit of both.

Back to my “string” analogy/question: do you view things like faith and laws as ultra-refined substances that God uses to govern all that is and is helping us learn to manage? Another way to put it, do you envision the process of sanctification as God pulling and availing certain palpable (on some ultra-refined level) “strings” of godliness attached to protégés that are trying to abide or reject these laws?

Way out of my league here, but perhaps it boils down to E=mc2, matter and energy being interchangeable Extend the famous equation into the spiritual realm and who knows what we'll find? Some notable LDS thinkers also seemed to believe the purest of all forms of matter, the Spirit of God, is not only a supremely efficient storehouse of potential energy, but also a supremely efficient storehouse of knowledge and even intelligence. This is what Parley P. Pratt had to say about the tremendous capacities of the Spirit of God:

"It (the Spirit of God) penetrates the pores of the most solid substances, pierces the human system to its most inward recesses, discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. It has power to move through space with an inconceivable velocity, far exceeding the tardy motions of electricity, or of physical light.

It comprehends the past, present, and future, in all their fulfness. Its inherent properties embrace all the attributes of intelligence and affection.

It is endowed with knowledge, wisdom, truth, love, charity, justice, and mercy, in all their ramifications.

In short, it is the attributes of the eternal power and Godhead."

 

No mere fanciful immateriality would seem to be capable of such mind boggling feats. Whatever the purest form of Spirit actually is, it would seem that beside Deity Himself it would have to be the "most real" (I use this absurd expression to make a point) element in the Universe. Big Bang theoreticians postulate that in the beginning of creation there was an infinitely small particle of matter that contained all the mass, energy and potential for life and intelligence that exists in our incomprehensible gigantic universe. If great scientific minds believe such an unlikely sounding phenomenon is possible, then perhaps we shouldn't be surprised if the great minds of the LDS Church anticipated the possibility of a very similar idea long before Einstein appeared on the scene.

Edited February 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

When the scriptures speak of reality (things as they really are), I think they refer to things that are of matter and non- matter, or a bit of both.

 

Uh oh.

 

"There is no immaterial matter".

 

THAT is the way things "really are". 

[mfbukowski]

Anotehr thought: Perhaps the more refined and pure the matter, the less it behaves like matter or can even be considered matter, to the point it is not matter at all. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It just means that the material and the immaterial are subsets of something else entirely. I don’t know what to call it, but God embodies it, and in some ways He is a tangible being (body of element, spirit of matter), and in others, He is intangible attributes such as love, holiness, mission, glory, etc.

I think love holiness mission glory etc are quite tangible.  We all know what they are and we can describe them but they are not

 

But we need not make the assumption that every word corresponds to a "thing" or a "force" or an "entity".  I mean are numbers entities?  No they are just logical expressions - they are rules of language.  Without a context of being used to count etc, they would be without meaning.  It's the context which gives words meaning.  The word "Gesellshaft" has no meaning outside of the context of the German language.  There are no "Gesellshafts"

 

Is a picture of a chair, a chair?

 

We say that pictures "represent" what is "really" a chair but they don't.  They don't represent the atoms of a chair, or its place in space etc.  My avatar does not "represent" Picasso- it looks like him in certain ways, but it is a statement in itself.  It uses the language of paint to say something about Picasso, just as even a photo of a chair does.  What angle has the photographer chosen to "show" the chair?  Is the picture black and white, or sepia, or color?  Why did the photographer make those choices?

 

Pictures are like words in that way- there are many ways to talk about chairs.  Are chairs the same as stools?  Could you have a chair that was sort of a stool?  What is the difference between a bar stool and a "high-chair".

 

Because we know how to use the category of English words called "attributes", that does not make them "intangible".   Words are quite tangible.

[mfbukowski]

Way out of my league here, but perhaps it boils down to E=mc2, matter and energy being interchangeable Extend the famous equation into the spiritual realm and who knows what we'll find? Some notable LDS thinkers also seemed to believe the purest of all forms of matter, the Spirit of God, is not only a supremely efficient storehouse of potential energy, but also a supremely efficient storehouse of knowledge and even intelligence. This is what Parley P. Pratt had to say about the tremendous capacities of the Spirit of God:

"It (the Spirit of God) penetrates the pores of the most solid substances, pierces the human system to its most inward recesses, discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. It has power to move through space with an inconceivable velocity, far exceeding the tardy motions of electricity, or of physical light.

It comprehends the past, present, and future, in all their fulfness. Its inherent properties embrace all the attributes of intelligence and affection.

It is endowed with knowledge, wisdom, truth, love, charity, justice, and mercy, in all their ramifications.

In short, it is the attributes of the eternal power and Godhead."

 

No mere fanciful immateriality would seem to be capable of such mind boggling feats. Whatever the purest form of Spirit actually is, it would seem that beside Deity Himself it would have to be the "most real" (I use this absurd expression to make a point) element in the Universe. Big Bang theoreticians postulate that in the beginning of creation there was an infinitely small particle of matter that contained all the mass, energy and potential for life and intelligence that exists in our incomprehensible gigantic universe. If great scientific minds believe such an unlikely sounding phenomenon is possible, then perhaps we shouldn't be surprised if the great minds of the LDS Church anticipated the possibility of a very similar idea long before Einstein appeared on the scene.

But when you say that the "purest form of Spirit" is "most real" that sounds very Platonic.

 

Just sayin'. 

 

For him the most "abstract" was the most real.  An Ideal triangle was more "real" than one you actually drew.  I think that's backwards.

[teddyaware]

But when you say that the "purest form of Spirit" is "most real" that sounds very Platonic.

 

Just sayin'. 

 

For him the most "abstract" was the most real.  An Ideal triangle was more "real" than one you actually drew.  I think that's backwards.

That's why (in parenthesis) I said "most real" was an absurd expression used only to make a point. Did you miss it? A more accurate way to contrast the Spirit of God when compared to grosser forms of matter might be to say the Spirit of God is the most pure and unalloyed of all matter..

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

Way out of my league here, but perhaps it boils down to E=mc2, matter and energy being interchangeable Extend the famous equation into the spiritual realm and who knows what we'll find? Some notable LDS thinkers also seemed to believe the purest of all forms of matter, the Spirit of God, is not only a supremely efficient storehouse of potential energy, but also a supremely efficient storehouse of knowledge and even intelligence. This is what Parley P. Pratt had to say about the tremendous capacities of the Spirit of God:

"It (the Spirit of God) penetrates the pores of the most solid substances, pierces the human system to its most inward recesses, discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. It has power to move through space with an inconceivable velocity, far exceeding the tardy motions of electricity, or of physical light.

It comprehends the past, present, and future, in all their fulfness. Its inherent properties embrace all the attributes of intelligence and affection.

It is endowed with knowledge, wisdom, truth, love, charity, justice, and mercy, in all their ramifications.

In short, it is the attributes of the eternal power and Godhead."

No mere fanciful immateriality would seem to be capable of such mind boggling feats. Whatever the purest form of Spirit actually is, it would seem that beside Deity Himself it would have to be the "most real" (I use this absurd expression to make a point) element in the Universe. Big Bang theoreticians postulate that in the beginning of creation there was an infinitely small particle of matter that contained all the mass, energy and potential for life and intelligence that exists in our incomprehensible gigantic universe. If great scientific minds believe such an unlikely sounding phenomenon is possible, then perhaps we shouldn't be surprised if the great minds of the LDS Church anticipated the possibility of a very similar idea long before Einstein appeared on the scene.

The spirit/Spirit of God Parley was talking about is the spirit indide each of our mortal bodies right now, which we received from our Father when he begat us as his children. It is what makes us who we are, and what wr are. Our life, itself, and all of the emotions and intelligence we have. Our attributes, whether we are good or evil, and whether we love or hate. And just as we can become all that he is, while still retaining our individuality, we also have the choice to become evil like Satan, who is also one of his children.

And yes we are and were composed of matter even before we gained, for a time, a mortal body, and even before our Father created us as individual spirit children, because we have always been a part of him just as he has always been a part of his parents.

[teddyaware]

The spirit/Spirit of God Parley was talking about is the spirit indide each of our mortal bodies right now, which we received from our Father when he begat us as his children. It is what makes us who we are, and what wr are. Our life, itself, and all of the emotions and intelligence we have. Our attributes, whether we are good or evil, and whether we love or hate. And just as we can become all that he is, while still retaining our individuality, we also have the choice to become evil like Satan, who is also one of his children.

And yes we are and were composed of matter even before we gained, for a time, a mortal body, and even before our Father created us as individual spirit children, because we have always been a part of him just as he has always been a part of his parents.

What I included in that post is a small excerpt from a much larger piece of writing from Parley Pratt. When read in context, it's obvious Elder Pratt is not speaking of our pre-mortal spirits that are now tabernacle in our bodies on here earth; rather, he was speaking of the Spirit of God or the Light of Christ that fills the immensity of space -- the same holy Spirit or light spoken of in the following from D&C 88:

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

 

While our spirits are made of similar matter, the spirit that's spoken of here is the omnipresent Spirit of God in unalloyed purity and holiness.

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

What I included in that post is a small excerpt from a much larger piece of writing from Parley Pratt. When read in context, it's obvious Elder Pratt is not speaking of our pre-mortal spirits that are now tabernacle in our bodies on here earth; rather, he was speaking of the Spirit of God or the Light of Christ that fills the immensity of space -- the same holy Spirit or light spoken of in the following from D&C 88:

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

While our spirits are made of similar matter, the spirit that's spoken of here is the omnipresent Spirit of God in unalloyed purity and holiness.

It is the same thing. I don't know why you want to think it isn't. And as I told you before the light refers to intelligence, as all of us are referred to as intelligences.

[teddyaware]

It is the same thing. I don't know why you want to think it isn't. And as I told you before the light refers to intelligence, as all of us are referred to as intelligences.

Our spirits and the Spirit of God are not one and the same thing. You are the first Latter-day Saint I've ever heard say this. Can you not see the spirits that are confined within the precincts of our earthly bodies don't fill the immensity of space, as does the omnipresent Light of Christ described in the quote from D&C 88? And if the spirits that inhabit our bodies were precisely like the Spirit of God we'd already be perfect. Please reference some passages of scripture for me that illustrate our spirits are the same as the perfect and perfectly holy Spirit of God.

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

It is the same thing. I don't know why you want to think it isn't. And as I told you before the light refers to intelligence, as all of us are referred to as intelligences.

Additionally, are the spirits of the spirits in prison who were disobedient during the days of Noah as pure, holy, righteous and perfect as is the Spirit of God? Of course not. But I have a hunch we may not be that far apart. Perhaps you could try to re-explain yourself in other words so that I might see where you're coming from.

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

That's why (in parenthesis) I said "most real" was an absurd expression used only to make a point. Did you miss it? A more accurate way to contrast the Spirit of God when compared to grosser forms of matter might be to say the Spirit of God is the most pure and unalloyed of all matter..

How do we decide if that is right?

[teddyaware]

How do we decide if that is right?

I come to this conclusion because:

 

A.  Joseph Smith taught that spirit is finer and purer than the gross matter we are accustomed to here on earth.

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131)

 

B. Even though spirit matter is finer and purer than gross matter, not all spirit matter is as holy, pure and unalloyed as the Spirit of God. Satan is made of spirit and yet he is the epitome of all that is evil, hateful and spiritually destructive -- he is an evil spirit. Just because something is made of spirit doesn't automatically mean the spirit matter of that thing is equal in holiness to the Spirit of God. Meanwhile, this is what we read about the nature of the Spirit of God:

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment. (Moses 6)

Now this Spirit (described above) is the diametric opposite to the Spirit of the devil, in accord with the law of opposition in all things. Therefore I conclude that the Spirit of God is the most holy, pure and unalloyed of all spirit matter because God is the holiest and purest of all beings. It would only stand to reason, then, that His most powerful ministering spiritual instrument of salvation and exaltation would be as pure and holy as He is.

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[CV75]

No mere fanciful immateriality would seem to be capable of such mind boggling feats.

I understand that the immaterial is not the same as matter, and cannot do the same things that matter can, but that it does serve a function apart and in conjunction with the material.

For example, I don’t see certain properties of a material (let’s call an exalted, inseparably connected sprit-and-element person a “material”) necessarily consisting of matter in and of themselves. I go back to such things as agency, faith and law – I don’t see these as forms of matter.

While significant things are said about matter in our scriptures, I find sufficient references to things that are not of matter to warrant some acceptance that non-material things do exist.

One of the reasons D&C spells out that intelligence was not created is that at the time, intelligence was defined as “A spiritual being; as a created intelligence. It is believed that the universe is peopled with innumerable superior intelligences.”--1828 Edition, Noah Webster’s American Dictionary of the English Language. Joseph Smith’s revelation corrected this notion. He also taught that spirit is matter, but that does not require that “intelligence” (when not used synonymously with “spirit”), as a property of spirit, exists exclusively as matter.

[Ahab]

Our spirits and the Spirit of God are not one and the same thing. You are the first Latter-day Saint I've ever heard say this. Can you not see the spirits that are confined within the precincts of our earthly bodies don't fill the immensity of space, as does the omnipresent Light of Christ described in the quote from D&C 88? And if the spirits that inhabit our bodies were precisely like the Spirit of God we'd already be perfect. Please reference some passages of scripture for me that illustrate our spirits are the same as the perfect and perfectly holy Spirit of God.

Citing scripture won't convince you of anything. You need to listen and accept what the Spirit of God has to say on this issue, getting your spirit in sync with the spirit of our Father and his messenger who is referred to as the Holy Spirit as well as other spirits who say what he says on this issue, and all you can hear from are spirit children of our Father because he begat all of the spirits who testify on this planet, and not only here, but in other places throughout the universe.

[CV75]

"There is no immaterial matter".

That is right—matter and non-matter are two separate things (there is no material non-matter either), no matter how far I take my examples into the “everything is matter” camp!

[CV75]

Because we know how to use the category of English words called "attributes", that does not make them "intangible".   Words are quite tangible.

I would say that the meaning behind the tangible speech and print, or even behind the neurochemical processes underlying and using them, is not tangible but is still "chair" and so forth, which is clearly tangible. Again, this takes nothing away from the material composition of anything, just that there is a non-material component also in operation.

[Ahab]

I would say that the meaning behind the tangible speech and print, or even behind the neurochemical processes underlying and using them, is not tangible but is still "chair" and so forth, which is clearly tangible. Again, this takes nothing away from the material composition of anything, just that there is a non-material component also in operation.

[teddyaware]

Citing scripture won't convince you of anything. You need to listen and accept what the Spirit of God has to say on this issue, getting your spirit in sync with the spirit of our Father and his messenger who is referred to as the Holy Spirit as well as other spirits who say what he says on this issue, and all you can hear from are spirit children of our Father because he begat all of the spirits who testify on this planet, and not only here, but in other places throughout the universe.

[Ahab]

Additionally, are the spirits of the spirits in prison who were disobedient during the days of Noah as pure, holy, righteous and perfect as is the Spirit of God? Of course not. But I have a hunch we may not be that far apart. Perhaps you could try to re-explain yourself in other words so that I might see where you're coming from.

[teddyaware]

Yes, just as emotions of love and faith are immaterial and cannot be seen they too have material manifestations when material beings have and act on those emotions.

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

I can quote abundant scriptural references to support my position and I will use these scriptural references to answer any questions you might have about my position. So now, in all fairness, I ask you to:

1 Explain to me in clearest possible language you can muster what your belief is concerning the light of Christ, or spirit of Christ, that fills the immensity of space. I respectfully ask you to use scriptural references as you make your case.

2 Explain to me in the clearest possible language where you think my position on the spirit of Christ, or light of Christ, as set forth on this thread, is in error. And again, I respectfully ask you to use scriptural quotes as you make your case.

Thanks

3. Please re

[teddyaware]

The issue is what the spirit of God is, and we get it by being begat by God. Or as I like to say, life doesn't begin but simply continues as each being propogates that species, and we have the spirit of God.

Edited February 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I type on my pocket buddy (Android device) so I prefer to comunicate in snippets, but I will say that I accept the same scriptures you accept even though we don't always understand them in the same way, or ways. And I've already used words to try to share my understanding. So what else is there that can help you to see what I see?