The Nature Of The Holy Spirit

[Ahab]

So are you saying in "1" that uncreated human intelligence is really created by a Father of its own kind?

You could say it that way I suppose. Each kind of intelligence/spirit/life form perpetuates its own kind and our kind does it through what we call a Father and a Mother who beget what we call children who in turn can become a Father and a Mother and thus the process continues.

I'm not sure I understand "2"--can you rephrase it?

The word "intelligences" in the book of Abraham refers to living entities of some kind, and thus we may use the word intelligence to refer to a living entity of some kind, even some kind other than our own kind.

Because of that, I'm not sure I understand "3"...

Try again now.

[CV75]

You could say it that way I suppose. Each kind of intelligence/spirit/life form perpetuates its own kind and our kind does it through what we call a Father and a Mother who beget what we call children who in turn can become a Father and a Mother and thus the process continues.

The word "intelligences" in the book of Abraham refers to living entities of some kind, and thus we may use the word intelligence to refer to a living entity of some kind, even some kind other than our own kind.

Try again now.

OK—why would uncreated intelligences that are co-eternal with God even have an inception that would require parents? That’s an oxymoron… To advance from co-eternal, uncreated intelligence to spirit children would require parents, but before that?

You are saying that all intelligence is by definition a living entity of some kind, just as a spirit and a soul are.

Are you saying that, since all intelligence emits light it therefore must also receive light again in order to continue existing? Otherwise its matter diminishes. This would mean that all existence is a give-and-take system shared by all intelligences, and since intelligences emit different kinds of light, the system would be like a dynamo converting the various kinds of light.

Elements emit light also; are they as much a living entity as the uncreated intelligences? Do they beget elements of their own kind?

[Ahab]

OK—why would uncreated intelligences that are co-eternal with God even have an inception that would require parents? That’s an oxymoron… To advance from co-eternal, uncreated intelligence to spirit children would require parents, but before that?

You are saying that all intelligence is by definition a living entity of some kind, just as a spirit and a soul are.

Are you saying that, since all intelligence emits light it therefore must also receive light again in order to continue existing? Otherwise its matter diminishes. This would mean that all existence is a give-and-take system shared by all intelligences, and since intelligences emit different kinds of light, the system would be like a dynamo converting the various kinds of light.

Elements emit light also; are they as much a living entity as the uncreated intelligences? Do they beget elements of their own kind?

You're not catching on to what I've explained to you and since you'll be better off if you get your understanding from God, I'm going to leave you now with what I've already told you while suggesting that you reconsider what I've said, and also reconsider your understanding of scripture pertaining to "uncreated intelligence", as you continue to seek knowledge from God about this.

[teddyaware]

Using my intelligence (scriptural definition), at any given time I can act on 1) faith in the past; 2) faith in the present; 3) faith in the future; 4) pure intent; 5) change; 6) hope; 7) charity; 8 ) freedom, liberty, agency to improve the nature of the matter my soul (both spirit and element) is comprised of.

You seem to believe faith, hope and charity can somehow exist outside of the material mind, but they can't.

Edited February 8, 2014 by teddyaware

[CV75]

You seem to believe faith, hope and charity can somehow exist outside of the material mind, but they can't.

Of course they can't exist outside the material mind (and sometimes they don't exist inside the material mind!), but that doesn't make them composed of matter.

 

For a person who has no charity (in his material mind), Christ's charity still exists outside that person's mind and in those minds that do have it.

[CV75]

You're not catching on to what I've explained to you and since you'll be better off if you get your understanding from God, I'm going to leave you now with what I've already told you while suggesting that you reconsider what I've said, and also reconsider your understanding of scripture pertaining to "uncreated intelligence", as you continue to seek knowledge from God about this.

Which part am I not catching on to? Don't worry, I'm not relying on you for my understanding, just trying to understand your posts in context of the thread.

[teddyaware]

Of course they can't exist outside the material mind (and sometimes they don't exist inside the material mind!), but that doesn't make them composed of matter.

 

For a person who has no charity (in his material mind), Christ's charity still exists outside that person's mind and in those minds that do have it.

The mind filled with charity really feels that charity, therefore the impulses of charity are experienced as light within the mind, and light is spirit and spirit is matter.

[CV75]

The mind filled with charity really feels that charity, therefore the impulses of charity are experienced as light within the mind, and light is spirit and spirit is matter.

No doubt charity is experienced as light, but I don’t think that makes it light, requires it to be light to be experienced, or rightly equates its interpretation as light with it being matter. The mind is matter, and as it quickens at charitable frequencies, the frequencies aren’t matter since the mind can't be filled with anything but itself.

[mfbukowski]

Of course they can't exist outside the material mind (and sometimes they don't exist inside the material mind!), but that doesn't make them composed of matter.

 

For a person who has no charity (in his material mind), Christ's charity still exists outside that person's mind and in those minds that do have it.

What are they composed of then?

 

How can we verify what they are composed of?

 

How can we know you are right?

 

What are words made of?

[mfbukowski]

When someone does a charitable act, do they kind of light up?

 

I do not experience charity as light.  I have no idea what that means.

[CV75]

What are they composed of then?

 

How can we verify what they are composed of?

 

How can we know you are right?

 

What are words made of?

 

When someone does a charitable act, do they kind of light up?

 

I do not experience charity as light.  I have no idea what that means.

I’m saying that frequency is matter’s vibration, not the matter that is doing such moving, so faith, hope and charity consist of a frequency of matter (in this case, a soul), not of the matter (the soul) itself.

 

You can verify this if you agree to view it in the same way, which is an entirely subjective process. I can only provide the assertion; whether it resonates with you is your call.

 

So the only way you can know that I am right is to have a level of conviction that what I said is right.

 

For me, in some ways words are made of matter (print, speech) and in other ways words they are frequencies of matter (the resonance of the spirit).

 

In the same way, charity can be experienced both as material light (some needful material act or tangible gift that one cannot do or obtain for himself) and as a frequency of material light (akin to Alma’s “swelling motions”), whether it is extended to us by someone or we extend it to someone else.

[mfbukowski]

I’m saying that frequency is matter’s vibration, not the matter that is doing such moving, so faith, hope and charity consist of a frequency of matter (in this case, a soul), not of the matter (the soul) itself.

 

You can verify this if you agree to view it in the same way, which is an entirely subjective process. I can only provide the assertion; whether it resonates with you is your call.

 

So the only way you can know that I am right is to have a level of conviction that what I said is right.

 

For me, in some ways words are made of matter (print, speech) and in other ways words they are frequencies of matter (the resonance of the spirit).

 

In the same way, charity can be experienced both as material light (some needful material act or tangible gift that one cannot do or obtain for himself) and as a frequency of material light (akin to Alma’s “swelling motions”), whether it is extended to us by someone or we extend it to someone else.

Ok, fair enough, gotcha.  

[CV75]

Ok, fair enough, gotcha.  

Ha-ha... just re-read it and sorry for all the mistakes. It should read:

 

I’m saying that frequency is matter’s vibration, not the matter that is doing such moving, so faith, hope and charity consist of a frequency of matter (in this case, a soul), not of the matter (the soul) itself.

 

You can verify this if you agree to view it in the same way, which is an entirely subjective process. I can only provide the assertion and some explanations; whether it resonates with you is your call.

 

So the only way you can know that I am right is to have a level of conviction that what I said is right.

 

For me, in some ways words are made of matter (print; wax, vinyl or digital recordings), and in other ways words are frequencies of matter (the resonance of the spirit).

 

In the same way, charity can be experienced both as (a) material light (some needful material act or tangible gift done or given to a person that the person cannot do or obtain for himself) and (b) as a frequency of material light (akin to Alma’s “swelling motions”), whether it is extended to us by someone or we extend it to someone else.

[mfbukowski]

So the only way you can know that I am right is to have a level of conviction that what I said is right.

This is what I agree with completely, but not as a put down.

This is true of any spiritual theory anyone has, so I think yours is as good as any, but I like mine better

[CV75]

This is what I agree with completely, but not as a put down.

This is true of any spiritual theory anyone has, so I think yours is as good as any, but I like mine better

Amen, Brother!

 

Now if only I'd get some of the questions I thought I might be getting... I can pull out some great scripture references! LOL

[teddyaware]

When someone does a charitable act, do they kind of light up?

 

I do not experience charity as light.  I have no idea what that means.

 

I'm hoping the above post is just a joke.

 

Alma expresses well my understanding that spiritual gifts, such as knowledge, faith or charity, are experienced as very real and discernible light within the mind and soul. 

 

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good... (Alma 32)

 

So if you will allow me some license, I'll insert the spiritual gift of charity into the above verse so as to demonstrate that the pure love of Christ (charity) should be experienced as divine light within the soul...

35 O then, is not (charity) real? I say unto you, Yea, because (charity) is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because (charity) is discernible, therefore ye must know that (charity) is good...

Edited February 10, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Ha-ha... just re-read it and sorry for all the mistakes. It should read:

 

I’m saying that frequency is matter’s vibration, not the matter that is doing such moving, so faith, hope and charity consist of a frequency of matter (in this case, a soul), not of the matter (the soul) itself.

 

You can verify this if you agree to view it in the same way, which is an entirely subjective process. I can only provide the assertion and some explanations; whether it resonates with you is your call.

 

So the only way you can know that I am right is to have a level of conviction that what I said is right.

 

For me, in some ways words are made of matter (print; wax, vinyl or digital recordings), and in other ways words are frequencies of matter (the resonance of the spirit).

 

In the same way, charity can be experienced both as (a) material light (some needful material act or tangible gift done or given to a person that the person cannot do or obtain for himself) and (b) as a frequency of material light (akin to Alma’s “swelling motions”), whether it is extended to us by someone or we extend it to someone else.

When it comes to the spiritual materiality of the law, I take my cue from lecture 5 of the Lectures on Faith which says:

And he being the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, and having overcome, received a fullness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father; which Mind is the Holy Spirit, that bears record of the Father and the Son...

these three constitute the Godhead and are one: the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness; filling all in all -the Son being filled with the fullness of the Mind, glory, and power; or in other words the Spirit, glory, and power of the Father - possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom;

 

Note how the word Mind (with a capital 'M') is used synonymously with the word Spirit. Now as Latter-day Saints we know that all spirit is matter; and if spirit is matter, then the divine Mind (or Spirit) is material in nature as well.   

Edited February 10, 2014 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

 

I'm hoping the above post is just a joke.

 

Alma expresses well my understanding that spiritual gifts, such as knowledge, faith or charity, are experienced as very real and discernible light within the mind and soul. 

 

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good... (Alma 32)

 

So if you will allow me some license, I'll insert the spiritual gift of charity into the above verse so as to demonstrate that the pure love of Christ (charity) should be experienced as divine light within the soul...

35 O then, is not (charity) real? I say unto you, Yea, because (charity) is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because (charity) is discernible, therefore ye must know that (charity) is good...

Acts of charity fill me with love and joy.  

 

I suppose that's wrong?  The point here is that experience is subjective and the spirit can be experienced in many ways, and no verbal description works completely.

 

Thinking there is only one way for everyone misses the point.  I thought we had established that.

 

It's poetry not science.

Edited February 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

When it comes to the spiritual materiality of the law, I take my cue from lecture 5 of the Lectures on Faith which says:

***

 

Note how the word Mind (with a capital 'M') is used synonymously with the word Spirit. Now as Latter-day Saints we know that all spirit is matter; and if spirit is matter, then the divine Mind (or Spirit) is material in nature as well.

I don't see how this reference addresses the "spiritual materiality of the law." It adresses how our mind and spirit are the same thing, and are matter. But it doesn't address law as a principle of action, or whether it is of matter or not, or consider how "spirit" can also refer to the quickening of our material spirits.

Maybe you can reframe your concern into another one-sentence question.

[teddyaware]

I don't see how this reference addresses the "spiritual materiality of the law." It adresses how our mind and spirit are the same thing, and are matter. But it doesn't address law as a principle of action, or whether it is of matter or not, or consider how "spirit" can also refer to the quickening of our material spirits.

Maybe you can reframe your concern into another one-sentence question.

Principles of action can only exist and inspire as impulses of real light and energy (E=mc2) within the material mind or they exist nowhere -- they don't "float around" in a nonexistent immaterial realm.

Edited February 10, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Acts of charity fill me with love and joy.  

 

I suppose that's wrong?  The point here is that experience is subjective and the spirit can be experienced in many ways, and no verbal description works completely.

 

Thinking there is only one way for everyone misses the point.  I thought we had established that.

 

It's poetry not science.

It's divine science that teaches us (as does Alma 32) that all that is good is light and can be discerned as such within the human soul. To deny this is tantamount to a denial that revelation is a real and trustworthy conveyor of the truth of things as they really are. When Joseph Smith spoke to the Father and the Son, or transported the gold plates to his home, for him it wasn't poetry, it was four-square reality.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10)

Edited February 10, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Maybe you can reframe your concern into another one-sentence question.

If you will go back and reread the post where I suggested the one sentence question and one sentence answer format, I said that you could ask me a question and then I would give you an answer, and then I would ask you a question and you could give me an answer, and so on. So if you would like to try again to start a dialogue based on that format, that would be fine with me

Edited February 10, 2014 by teddyaware

[CV75]

If you will go back and reread the post where I suggested the one sentence question and one sentence answer format, I said that you could ask me a question and then I would give you an answer, and then I would ask you a question and you could give me an answer, and so on. So if you would like to try again to start a dialogue based on that format, that would be fine with me

Ok--how does the reference in #242 mention the "spiritual materiality of the law"?

[CV75]

Principles of action can only exist and inspire as impulses of real light and energy (E=mc2) within the material mind or they exist nowhere -- they don't "float around" in a nonexistent immaterial realm.

How is faith (a principle of action and power) not the quickened ("aroused"--Alma 32:27) state of the spirit that has been exposed to a principle of truth (rather than the spirit itself)?

[teddyaware]

Ok--how does the reference in #242 mention the "spiritual materiality of the law"?

Because according to the 5th Lecture on Faith, the workings of God's Mind are one and the same with the workings of His Spiit, and all spirit is material.