Moral Law And The Courts

[Rob Osborn]

Again, CFR that Satan in the pre existance wanted to do away with morals in society.  If you can not reference that, then you can not make the claim that your plan on forcing the children of God to be moral under governmental laws is any different than lSatans plan that God and those that forught with God rejected. 

I can make any claim I want. It may not be official doctrine but I do believe it is real truth.

 

We know how Satan works, he wants us to committ sin and feel justified in it as if there is no harm and in the end we shall all be saved.

[thesometimesaint]

Actually, it has been hotly debated whether blue laws serve a secular purpose, namely people need a day off and letting commerce quiet for a day also provides a more restful occasion. Christ taught that the Sabbath was instituted for the benefit of man not the other way around. I may be mistaken, but I believe the Church has also modified its stance in a few countries and holds its Sacrament services on an alternative day. The problem the anti SSM activists have run into is they have not been able to articulate a sound non religious basis for restricting the lives of a minority and have engaged in a political approach which is offensive not only to gays but more importantly to moderates who take individual liberty seriously as a public good. Their success has not been because people are enthused about gay behavior, but they have become disgusted by the behavior of those opposing SSM which they see as an attempt to cram religion down the throats of others.

 

I'm sure that many rationalized it that way. But Jews, Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, and many "Christian" factory owners disagreed.

 

The Sabbath in Jesus day was our Saturday. Christians turned it to Sunday after the Resurrection of Jesus.

 

I can see no consistent legal reason to outlaw SSM. My morals, should apply to me. Laws of the State are a different question.

[california boy]

I can make any claim I want. It may not be official doctrine but I do believe it is real truth.

 

We know how Satan works, he wants us to committ sin and feel justified in it as if there is no harm and in the end we shall all be saved.

Which confirms that you have no doctrinal support for your statement that that Satan in the pre existence wanted to do away with morals in society.

 

I, on the other hand. stand firm in my assertion that the plan you are proposing where government enforced morality through legal means sounds more like the plan Satan proposed in the pre existence than God's plan of not forcing people to do what is morally right, but rather leading them to do what is right through His church and His spirit, not through forced governmental laws.

 

And yes, I am directly saying that what you are proposing of forcing morality through governmental laws is closer to following Satan in his plan presented in heaven.  Are you sure you don't want to reconsider your proposal?

[Stone holm]

I'm sure that many rationalized it that way. But Jews, Muslims, Seventh Day Adventists, and many "Christian" factory owners disagreed.

 

The Sabbath in Jesus day was our Saturday. Christians turned it to Sunday after the Resurrection of Jesus.

 

I can see no consistent legal reason to outlaw SSM. My morals, should apply to me. Laws of the State are a different question.

 

As I said it was hotly debated, but at least there was secular justification.  What the Vermont Court found in its ruling which touched off the Civil Unions legislation in Vermont was that the State legislature had already in essence foreclosed all of the reasons that were being put forward as to why Civil Unions should not be legislated:  the antis raised the issue of preferred parenting, but the Court noted that the State legislature had already approved adoption by gay couples, they put up encouraging promiscuity, but the Court noted that Civil Union would help reduce that, etc.  eventually the Court said after going through all of these arguments we are left strictly with religion as the grounds and that violated the Common Benefits clause in the State Constitution.  Basically the same thing happened over in NH as they have a Common Benefits clause in their State Constitution as well.  Unfortunately, Vermont would probably have just let it ride with Civil Unions but the opposition to Civil Unions was so condescending and ugly that after the Prop 8 debacle hit the fan -- they had no problem getting a SSM passed.  I really think that in many cases they were not voting for the gays, but against the opposition.  There was a similar thing that happened in the run up to the Civil War and then gained steam during the Civil War -- a lot of Northerners were not all that sympathetic to the African slaves, but were totally disgusted with the slave owners.  They felt the slave owners were immoral and then after the Northern armies got into the deep South, that disgust grew.  We stood shoulder to shoulder with people who the general populace in New England thought were disgusting bigots, so we wound up getting painted with the same brush.  If you run with the wrong crowd, you pick up a brand you may not like.  So if people start identifying you with the likes of Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, its hard to shake that off.

[Rob Osborn]

Which confirms that you have no doctrinal support for your statement that that Satan in the pre existence wanted to do away with morals in society.

 

I, on the other hand. stand firm in my assertion that the plan you are proposing where government enforced morality through legal means sounds more like the plan Satan proposed in the pre existence than God's plan of not forcing people to do what is morally right, but rather leading them to do what is right through His church and His spirit, not through forced governmental laws.

 

And yes, I am directly saying that what you are proposing of forcing morality through governmental laws is closer to following Satan in his plan presented in heaven.  Are you sure you don't want to reconsider your proposal?

There is no scripture support for Satans plan of forced obedience. Thats all a big lie.

There is no such forcibg obedience on people because laws are based on good morals. Those who want government to not pass laws based on morals are playing the devils plan to perfection. Satan must destroy morality in law if he is to succeed.

It states in scripture that Satan was thrown out of heaven in part because of him seeking to destroy our agency. Agency is a gift that is maintained through obedience. When we chhose Satans plan we lose portions of that gift of agency until we become completely chained down to satans captive will. Satan became disobedient while still in heaven and sought for power and fame all the while choosing a sinful way. He was thrown out of heaven because of his wickedness and lies.

[california boy]

There is no scripture support for Satans plan of forced obedience. Thats all a big lie.

There is no such forcibg obedience on people because laws are based on good morals. Those who want government to not pass laws based on morals are playing the devils plan to perfection. Satan must destroy morality in law if he is to succeed.

It states in scripture that Satan was thrown out of heaven in part because of him seeking to destroy our agency. Agency is a gift that is maintained through obedience. When we chhose Satans plan we lose portions of that gift of agency until we become completely chained down to satans captive will. Satan became disobedient while still in heaven and sought for power and fame all the while choosing a sinful way. He was thrown out of heaven because of his wickedness and lies.

 

Sorry, but there is scripture talking about satan attempting to take away the agency of man.  It was the reason he was cast from heaven.  Pretending that agency refers to just this earth life is a complete distortion of what the scriptures say.  This verse is talking specifically about the war in heaven and what it was fought over.  I will agree that Satan continues to try and take away our agency as you pointed out.  But this verse is not about what satan is doing on earth.

 

Agency is a gift freely given to us by God.  To maintain that agency, we have to continue to be obedient to God not the govenment.

 

Moses 4:3

• Pearl of Great Price

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; 

 

 

Looks like your plan to take away the agency of man and force us to live by your morality is exactly Satan's plan.  One that got Satan cast out of heaven for.  This is not a "made up" doctrine.  Free agency is one of the cores of the whole plan of salvation.  God will not force a man to heaven.  Either should the government.  Frankly I am having a hard time understanding how you could so distort this basic principle of the gospel.

Edited November 19, 2013 by california boy

[Stone holm]

There is no scripture support for Satans plan of forced obedience. Thats all a big lie.

There is no such forcibg obedience on people because laws are based on good morals. Those who want government to not pass laws based on morals are playing the devils plan to perfection. Satan must destroy morality in law if he is to succeed.

It states in scripture that Satan was thrown out of heaven in part because of him seeking to destroy our agency. Agency is a gift that is maintained through obedience. When we chhose Satans plan we lose portions of that gift of agency until we become completely chained down to satans captive will. Satan became disobedient while still in heaven and sought for power and fame all the while choosing a sinful way. He was thrown out of heaven because of his wickedness and lies.

No. It is not. Satan's plan was to make sure that the Spirits would be saved by not having committed sin and that could only be accomplished by depriving them of agency. The plan would have allowed them to be saved, but not exalted. So they would have been like animals. The concept of forcing complete obedience by the coercive application of law by governments mimics Satan's plan. Satan in the last days will deceive even many of the elect by getting them to do his will thinking they are doing God's.

[Calm]

Sorry, but there is scripture talking about satan attempting to take away the agency of man.  It was the reason he was cast from heaven.

 

But this could be interpreted in a different way, as in Satan removing the Law of God and thus there would be no sin anyone was accountable for no matter what they did.  With no accountability, no responsibility, there is no agency even if there is infinite choice.

Edited November 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

But this could be interpreted in a different way, as in Satan removing the Law of God and thus there would be no sin anyone was accountable for no matter what they did.  With no accountability, no responsibility, there is no agency even if there is infinite choice.

Have to disagree. The law of God cannot be removed, because it was not actually His law as it existed prior to His becoming God, and is the only recipe for exaltation. However, man's agency could have been destroyed by interfering with our capacity.

[Rob Osborn]

Sorry, but there is scripture talking about satan attempting to take away the agency of man.  It was the reason he was cast from heaven.  Pretending that agency refers to just this earth life is a complete distortion of what the scriptures say.  This verse is talking specifically about the war in heaven and what it was fought over.  I will agree that Satan continues to try and take away our agency as you pointed out.  But this verse is not about what satan is doing on earth.

 

Agency is a gift freely given to us by God.  To maintain that agency, we have to continue to be obedient to God not the govenment.

 

 

Looks like your plan to take away the agency of man and force us to live by your morality is exactly Satan's plan.  One that got Satan cast out of heaven for.  This is not a "made up" doctrine.  Free agency is one of the cores of the whole plan of salvation.  God will not force a man to heaven.  Either should the government.  Frankly I am having a hard time understanding how you could so distort this basic principle of the gospel.

Satan is currently doing exactly the same thing that got him cast out of heaven to begin with. The Lord even states to Moses that how he now is he also was the same when he lied before God in referwnce to wanting to be the savior. Only when we have moral law and strict adherence to it will we be free in society and as an individual. Laws are for our own good, they protect us and help keep us from Satan gaining too much power.

Just tjink of this- it is only in heaven that we will fully appreciate and utilyze agency. Heaven will also be a place though with very strict moral law. Think about that. We do not have the free right to be disobedient. Our agency is completely hinged off of our obedience to strict moral law and complianceof its rules. Heaven isnt a place where lawslessness exists. Heaven is order with strict moral laws in place. As long as we adhere to that moral law we will have complete freedom to act without consequences that act upon us.

[Rob Osborn]

No. It is not. Satan's plan was to make sure that the Spirits would be saved by not having committed sin and that could only be accomplished by depriving them of agency. The plan would have allowed them to be saved, but not exalted. So they would have been like animals. The concept of forcing complete obedience by the coercive application of law by governments mimics Satan's plan. Satan in the last days will deceive even many of the elect by getting them to do his will thinking they are doing God's.

Satan was a liar though. The scriptures never state that it was his real plan to save us. We dont believe Satan when he says he is the Only Begotten. As such, we shouldnt believe him in wanting to save anyone.

[thesometimesaint]

Satan was a liar though. The scriptures never state that it was his real plan to save us. We dont believe Satan when he says he is the Only Begotten. As such, we shouldnt believe him in wanting to save anyone.

 

His plan was to force us to not sin. The exact opposite of Agency. Please point out where in the Scriptures Satan claims to be Only Begotten of God the Father. We are all spirit children of God, Satan and his followers included.

[Calm]

 Please point out where in the Scriptures Satan claims to be Only Begotten of God the Father. 

 

 Moses 1:19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng

 

His plan was to force us to not sin. 

 

Or remove sin completely by removing the law and removing the punishment.

 

Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/42.17?lang=eng#16

Edited November 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

Thanx.

 

Those that die without law will not be judged by the law. So no I don't believe Satan wanted to remove all law. He did however want all the authority and glory of God to save, by force, everyone. That none should be lost.

[Calm]

 So no I don't believe Satan wanted to remove all law.

Why not?  What is there in the law that he wanted?  It did nothing for him.

 

Why would he do at that work when he didn't have to?  Why not just declare the law null and void...he's done with what he has to do with the people.  Still has to be their Redeemer technically, but I sometimes wonder if he really thought that far ahead and was thinking more of the gigantic party it would be and how people would adore him for it.

Edited November 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

Why not?  What is there in the law that he wanted?  It did nothing for him.

 

Why would he do at that work when he didn't have to?  Why not just declare the law null and void...he's done with what he has to do with the people.  Still has to be their Redeemer technically, but I sometimes wonder if he really thought that far ahead and was thinking more of the gigantic party it would be and how people would adore him for it.

 

The law to have his say in what others did. Even Christ was tempted in all things, Satan had his say, but it did no good. Christ rejected the offer. 

 

I think Satan is very smart. He has direct knowledge of each and every one of us from our eternity of pre-mortal life together. He uses that knowledge for our destruction. In the end all that knowledge will to be of no avail. He will be cast out along with the Sons of Perdition into Eternal Darkness without light, love, or hope. To gnaw on the dregs of his/their own plots, and plans

[Rob Osborn]

me

His plan was to force us to not sin. The exact opposite of Agency. Please point out where in the Scriptures Satan claims to be Only Begotten of God the Father. We are all spirit children of God, Satan and his followers included.

There actually is no scripture stating Satan was going to force us to not sin. That is an assumption based off a false premise. Satan lied when he said he would save all that not one soul would be lost. Next we are told he was kicked out in part because he sought the destruction of our agency. From those two things somehow we have this belief that Satan was telling the truth, and, that in doing so he was going to have a plan of forced obedience. This paradigm is built entirely on the premise that Lucifer was telling the entire truth in what he said in Moses 4:1. But, we are told in that scripture that even as he lied previously to Moses he was also that same type (liar) in the beginning when he said he would save all. The scriptures tell us 3 verses later that thus Satan became the father of all lies. There is also the problem of peoples definition of "agency" and how they make the shoe fit here.

Agency is the power of operation. Its opposite is actually "captivity" meaning that a person has no power to act. When a person has their agency destroyed it literally means they are taken captive- they no longer have the power to act for themselves. I find it thus interesting that immediately in Moses it speaks of all those who follow after Satan have their agency destroyed- they are taken captive to his will.

BTW, here is the scripture where Satan tells Moses he is the only Begotten-

19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. (Moses 1:19)

[Stone holm]

me

There actually is no scripture stating Satan was going to force us to not sin. That is an assumption based off a false premise. Satan lied when he said he would save all that not one soul would be lost. Next we are told he was kicked out in part because he sought the destruction of our agency. From those two things somehow we have this belief that Satan was telling the truth, and, that in doing so he was going to have a plan of forced obedience. This paradigm is built entirely on the premise that Lucifer was telling the entire truth in what he said in Moses 4:1. But, we are told in that scripture that even as he lied previously to Moses he was also that same type (liar) in the beginning when he said he would save all. The scriptures tell us 3 verses later that thus Satan became the father of all lies. There is also the problem of peoples definition of "agency" and how they make the shoe fit here.

Agency is the power of operation. Its opposite is actually "captivity" meaning that a person has no power to act. When a person has their agency destroyed it literally means they are taken captive- they no longer have the power to act for themselves. I find it thus interesting that immediately in Moses it speaks of all those who follow after Satan have their agency destroyed- they are taken captive to his will.

BTW, here is the scripture where Satan tells Moses he is the only Begotten-

19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. (Moses 1:19)

 

 

Its interesting that this group cannot even agree upon what Satan's plan was even though we all agree he is a problem.  Given that fact, how is it that we would expect that all Americans who are of vastly diverse religious beliefs and a majority who according to recent polls have no particular belief to agree and recognize what is the immutable law of God.  Outside of Church and as a personal guide for our individual actions and our individual lifestyle choices, religion simply is not a useful argument upon which to base political action.  The use of it in that sphere degrades both politics and religion.

[thesometimesaint]

As I said it was hotly debated, but at least there was secular justification.  What the Vermont Court found in its ruling which touched off the Civil Unions legislation in Vermont was that the State legislature had already in essence foreclosed all of the reasons that were being put forward as to why Civil Unions should not be legislated:  the antis raised the issue of preferred parenting, but the Court noted that the State legislature had already approved adoption by gay couples, they put up encouraging promiscuity, but the Court noted that Civil Union would help reduce that, etc.  eventually the Court said after going through all of these arguments we are left strictly with religion as the grounds and that violated the Common Benefits clause in the State Constitution.  Basically the same thing happened over in NH as they have a Common Benefits clause in their State Constitution as well.  Unfortunately, Vermont would probably have just let it ride with Civil Unions but the opposition to Civil Unions was so condescending and ugly that after the Prop 8 debacle hit the fan -- they had no problem getting a SSM passed.  I really think that in many cases they were not voting for the gays, but against the opposition.  There was a similar thing that happened in the run up to the Civil War and then gained steam during the Civil War -- a lot of Northerners were not all that sympathetic to the African slaves, but were totally disgusted with the slave owners.  They felt the slave owners were immoral and then after the Northern armies got into the deep South, that disgust grew.  We stood shoulder to shoulder with people who the general populace in New England thought were disgusting bigots, so we wound up getting painted with the same brush.  If you run with the wrong crowd, you pick up a brand you may not like.  So if people start identifying you with the likes of Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, its hard to shake that off.

 

While I'm personally disgusted with slavery there are good Capitalistic economic reasons to oppose it. It gave a economic advantage to the slave holders.

See Slavery by Another Name http://video.pbs.org/video/2176766758/

[thesometimesaint]

me

There actually is no scripture stating Satan was going to force us to not sin. That is an assumption based off a false premise. Satan lied when he said he would save all that not one soul would be lost. Next we are told he was kicked out in part because he sought the destruction of our agency. From those two things somehow we have this belief that Satan was telling the truth, and, that in doing so he was going to have a plan of forced obedience. This paradigm is built entirely on the premise that Lucifer was telling the entire truth in what he said in Moses 4:1. But, we are told in that scripture that even as he lied previously to Moses he was also that same type (liar) in the beginning when he said he would save all. The scriptures tell us 3 verses later that thus Satan became the father of all lies. There is also the problem of peoples definition of "agency" and how they make the shoe fit here.

Agency is the power of operation. Its opposite is actually "captivity" meaning that a person has no power to act. When a person has their agency destroyed it literally means they are taken captive- they no longer have the power to act for themselves. I find it thus interesting that immediately in Moses it speaks of all those who follow after Satan have their agency destroyed- they are taken captive to his will.

BTW, here is the scripture where Satan tells Moses he is the only Begotten-

19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. (Moses 1:19)

 

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/war-in-heaven

[california boy]

Its interesting that this group cannot even agree upon what Satan's plan was even though we all agree he is a problem.  Given that fact, how is it that we would expect that all Americans who are of vastly diverse religious beliefs and a majority who according to recent polls have no particular belief to agree and recognize what is the immutable law of God.  Outside of Church and as a personal guide for our individual actions and our individual lifestyle choices, religion simply is not a useful argument upon which to base political action.  The use of it in that sphere degrades both politics and religion.

You make a very good point.  Even members can't agree with what is the truth.  Does the church or God have as a plan to force people to live the gospel?  Should the church lock up members or fine members that are disobedient to the teachings of the church like secular government does?  If the church nor God acts this way, why would anyone think that a much more flawed system such as the government should force people to be moral?  And just what does that mean?  Should the government lock up people who have sex outside of marriage?  Should we imprison people who look at pornography?  Should the government become a police state, on the lookout for any kind of morality in society?

 

I think all of these played out scenarios is the antithesis of the gospel.  I stand by my belief that Satan's plan was to force people back to heaven by taking away their agency as noted in the scriptures.  It goes against core church principles and the plan of salvation to force people to live the gospel.

[Rob Osborn]

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/war-in-heaven

Not sure if anyone even prrof reads this stuff. On the one hand they state the war was fought over Satan wanting salvation at the expense of agency and then on the other they go on to state that this same struggle, the same issues are still being fought for in the earth today. We know that something there is false because in nothing in history has Satan fought for a system to ensure salvation. This is a classic case of misinterpreting scripture. The truth is there though and it states that Satan was a liar in stating his plan to be the Savior. Thus, we know he lied about wanting to save anyone. All he wanted was to steal Gods children and make them serve him in spiritual and physical captivity. He was kicked out of heaven for that real reason. That same battle is still being fought and it still is Satans plan to destroy our agency by bringing us into spiritual captivity. This is all too obvious. Its interesting that Satan is such a good liar that somehow we believe he was truthful about wanting to save souls. That was never his intentuon, not then and not now. Its the same exact battle still beibg fought over the very thing Satan originally wanted- to overthrow righteousness with wickedness

[thesometimesaint]

The War in Heaven was waged from before the foundations of this world were set. It was about Agency. There can be no Agency without choice. We get to choose whom we follow.

[Bob Crockett]

I think all of these played out scenarios is the antithesis of the gospel.  I stand by my belief that Satan's plan was to force people back to heaven by taking away their agency as noted in the scriptures.  It goes against core church principles and the plan of salvation to force people to live the gospel.

I agree with you completely. However, sinful conduct becomes even more painfully and egregiously wrong when, despite the agency and the knowledge of the prophecies and promises of God, a Latter-day Saint chooses to sin. The Book of Mormon, which is the champion of free will in the face of false Protestantism determinism, teaches that "[a]nd it would be better for them if they had not been born." 3 Nephi 28:35.

It does no good for a person to champion agency as a core element of LDS doctrine, on the one hand, and to say on the other hand, gee, I have exercised that agency to get an abortion or whatever. God won't beat us with a few stripes and then let us in.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Bob Crockett

[CV75]

I stand by my belief that Satan's plan was to force people back to heaven by taking away their agency as noted in the scriptures.  It goes against core church principles and the plan of salvation to force people to live the gospel.

 

Its the same exact battle still beibg fought over the very thing Satan originally wanted- to overthrow righteousness with wickedness

I think the idea is that it would be Satan’s revised version of “heaven” and “salvation,” and on his own terms since he said, "Wherefore, give me thine honor."

 

Moses 4:1, "And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." And this after the Beloved Son, who knew and understood the Father's will, had already been Chosen from the beginning (verse 2).