Moral Law And The Courts

[Stone holm]

Not at all. The term tolerance is broad enough that you have to define how you're using it. In it's most basic sense tolerance is unqualified and so anything goes.

 

I disagree that God tolerates sin. He allows it to exist here but He does not tolerate it in His presence. Joseph did not teach unrestrained tolerance. It was far more directed to individual situations and circumstances and not broadly defined as acceptance of everything without qualification.

Tolerance does not connote acceptance or approval. Nor does it in a political sense mean anything goes, normally in today's parlance it is more as set forth in John Stuart Mills "On Liberty" . We tend towards live and let live, and refrain from being busybodies in other persons personal lives.

[Rob Osborn]

It's a lot different. One of those differences is that it's not a made up straw man. However, it is a good example of how the morality of the surrounding majority can be used to oppress people. I don't understand why many Mormons keep forgetting this lesson.

Do you believe Mormons to be an immoral people?

[Stone holm]

Do you believe Mormons to be an immoral people?

Interesting question can an entire people be considered immoral? I think that could only be if what gives them a group identity was itself an immoral principle, so unless you thought our doctrine to be immoral, then the answer would have to be no. Hence for me that answer would be no. If, however, you were to ask me if say Bob Jones University was an immoral institution I would tend to say yes. Also, because I say Mormons are not an immoral people, does not mean that all Mormons are moral, or that Mormonism has never been put to immoral ends.

[jwhitlock]

Tolerance does not connote acceptance or approval. Nor does it in a political sense mean anything goes, normally in today's parlance it is more as set forth in John Stuart Mills "On Liberty" . We tend towards live and let live, and refrain from being busybodies in other persons personal lives.

 

In our society and politics today, tolerance is typically used in the context of demanding that you must tolerate me, while ignoring the fact that it goes both ways.

 

Tolerance can infer acceptance or approval. It's an aspect of it that can creep in because it is so broadly defined by different people.

[thesometimesaint]

Some, not all much of the common law was Biblical based, so it would be as accurate to say it was based on Hebrew law.

 

English Common Law is based on what the judges said. IOW It was circumstantial. Certainly not the Hebrew Law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_law

 

Since 1189, English law has been described as a common law rather than a civil law system (i.e. there has been no major codification of the law, and judicial precedents are binding as opposed to persuasive). This may have been due to the Norman conquest of England, which introduced a number of legal concepts and institutions from Norman law into the English system. In the early centuries of English common law, the justices and judges were responsible for adapting the Writ system to meet everyday needs, applying a mixture of precedent and common sense to build up a body of internally consistent law, e.g., the Law Merchant began in the Pie-Powder Courts (a corruption of the French "pieds-poudrés" or "dusty feet", meaning ad hoc marketplace courts). As Parliament developed in strength legislation gradually overtook judicial law making so that, today, judges are only able to innovate in certain very narrowly defined areas. Time before 1189 was defined in 1276 as being time immemorial.

[thesometimesaint]

Do you believe Mormons to be an immoral people?

 

No I don't. But that doesn't mean that our laws must be based on or employ Mormon morals.

[california boy]

1. ALL morality is based on the rule that you should not do to someone else what you wouldn't want done to you. Also known as the Golden Rule.

 

2. Divine providence is nowhere provided for by the US Constitution.

 

3. I'm not totally convinced that we are moral creatures. Last I looked we do need a Savior because we can't follow the Golden Rule.

 

4. God is nowhere even mentioned in the US Constitution. We are not governed by God. We are governed by men. Under our laws We the People get to decide. Not Kings, not Popes, not Prophets. Moreover until God comes back and rules over all the earth. I want a say in how I am governed.

 

5. No we are NOT FREE because of God. We are free because we choose to be. Moreover we fight bloody wars to obtain and maintain that freedom.

 

6. The Founders were of debatable morals, and we don't, by in large, believe in the same God(There were many Deists in that bunch) as they did. Moreover some were atheists. Ever hear of Thomas Paine his writings more than any others provided the moral rationale for the American Revolution. He was an atheist. Ever hear of Thomas Jefferson, while not an atheist, he rewrote the Bible removing all references to God(s), deity, and the supernatural.

 

7. Courts of law don't decide morals. You can be a money grubbing lecherous old freak, and as long as you don't violate the law. The law has no claim on you. They are integral to deciding law.

 

8. Courts of law have an affirmative responsibility to decide what if any laws are, and how they effect marriages. If you don't like a particular ruling by a court of law. You do have the right of appeal, and if you so desire band together, with sufficient people, change that law. In this country that is called a majority of the votes.

 

9. God can recognize any marriage he wants to. The law, in the US, is that ANY with recognized proper legal authority can perform the wedding ceremony. I could if I wanted to could obtain the necessary legal clearance to perform the ceremony. Though I doubt the Church would be thrilled if I invoked its name in it.

 

10. What you believe is between you and God. What you do is between you and the State. That being said I oppose SSM but not upon legal grounds, but because of my morals grounds. Which is not sufficient to deny those that want it a SSM.

 

11. Moral grounds alone are insufficient to deny SSM rights. For thousands of years, and hundreds of years in the US, it was considered immoral, and illegal for people of differing races to intermarry. Add in that Bible decries marriage between differing religions. You'd be pretty surprised at what the Bible requires.

 

12. In the US religions are permitted to perform the wedding ceremony, and have the State recognize them. We(The US) doesn't get of marriage laws from God, the Bible, or the supernatural. We do get them from the ancient Romans, by way of the British.

 

More to the point. If all men were angels no government would be necessary; If all men were devils, no government would be possible.

Best post of the day.  

[Danzo]

Based on the need for things to be stable. A desire for maximum conformance. The need to control. 

 

You don't have much experience with law.

 

have you heard of the legal term "malem in se"?

 

Have you ever participated in the making of legislation?

 

Every single law and every proponent  of legislation argues that their position is "right"

 

Why do we have a minimum wage? (because paying people too little for their wages is immoral)

 

Why was the affordable care act passed  (Because it is immoral not to help sick people)

 

Why is stealing against the law? (because it is immoral)

 

Why is murder against the law? (Because it is immoral)

 

The list is endless, every law is based on someones morality (hopefully the majority's morality in democracy)

Edited November 17, 2013 by Danzo

[Danzo]

No I don't. But that doesn't mean that our laws must be based on or employ Mormon morals.

 

So because a law agrees with a Mormon's morals, it should automatically be rejected?

[Tsuzuki]

Do you believe Mormons to be an immoral people?

No, and neither are sexually active gay people.

[Stone holm]

So because a law agrees with a Mormon's morals, it should automatically be rejected?

Not if it can be supported by a secular justification. For example, it might be justified to make sexual promiscuity illegal based on the problem of spreading of sexual disease...if people were willing to put up with that much government interference in their lives. It might also be legitimate to make coffee, tobacco and alcohol illegal for health reasons, but again it is unlikely that is going to happen because people do not like that kind of governmental intrusion. But you have to base your argument on non religious grounds.

[Danzo]

I don't see why secular and moral are exclusive.  wouldn't the decision to prevent sexual disease be based on moral considerations like

 

"It would be immoral to allow people to suffer these diseases if we could do something about it"

 

In seems in your mind,  religious = moral.  

[Danzo]

No, and neither are sexually active gay people.

Not much into the whole law of chastity thing, are you.

[Tsuzuki]

Not much into the whole law of chastity thing, are you.

It's a fine law, but it doesn't reflect a person's morality.

[Danzo]

It's a fine law, but it doesn't reflect a person's morality.

 

So what does determine a persons morality?

[Tsuzuki]

So what does determine a persons morality?

How they treat other people.

[Danzo]

So your definition of moral is "treats other people well".

 

"treats other badly" is the only sin?

[Stone holm]

I don't see why secular and moral are exclusive.  wouldn't the decision to prevent sexual disease be based on moral considerations like

 

"It would be immoral to allow people to suffer these diseases if we could do something about it"

 

In seems in your mind,  religious = moral.

Not sure who this was directed at. No I believe moral = culturally approved. But some believe that moral = religiously approved. As a result culture and religion get all tangled up.

[Rob Osborn]

Exactly what is meant by the assertion that morality stands on its own? I believe any serious look at history suggests otherwise. Morality is primarily a cultural phenomenon. Even when it is propped up by religion, it changes. We no longer shun menstruating women, stone witches, or discriminate against people who lap water a certain way. Morality is more of a cultural/religious/political dance, and monogamy in particular was a Roman thing and the Romans countenanced all types of other relationships.

Morality is a knowledge of things ingrained in our souls teaching us right from wrong. Yes it is true that this knowledge can be faded or completely gone in some people but nevertheless we are born with that moral knowledge or "access" to that knowledge in and through the light of Christ-

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. (moroni 7:15-19)

We have within our own powers to know the moral law of God as we search within ourselves- that much is given to every man. Some things may difficult to discern but putting righteous heads together and the truth will prevail. Thus the importance of placing wise and righteous men in charge of our government and laws.

[Rob Osborn]

Why does your vision of a government basing their laws and punishments on what God wants sound more like the vision Satan had to how the world should be run.  And we all know how that turned out.  Forcing the children of God by law is not the plan we voted on when we came to this earth.  It is directly against the plan of God that we did embrace.

We must have moral law in place to be free. It is Satan that wants to do away with moral law, promising freedom, but in reality securing us instead in the chains of hell. lets be real careful on what it is that Satan wants no to confuse it with freedom. We must have strict laws concerning our moral responsibility in society with punishments as set forth for disobedience to moral law. We are the most free nation on earth and it is because we have the highest standard of moral law in place.

[Rob Osborn]

It's a lot different. One of those differences is that it's not a made up straw man. However, it is a good example of how the morality of the surrounding majority can be used to oppress people. I don't understand why many Mormons keep forgetting this lesson.

Im interested in what you think it is about Mormons that oppresses others

[Stone holm]

Morality is a knowledge of things ingrained in our souls teaching us right from wrong. Yes it is true that this knowledge can be faded or completely gone in some people but nevertheless we are born with that moral knowledge or "access" to that knowledge in and through the light of Christ-15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. (moroni 7:15-19)We have within our own powers to know the moral law of God as we search within ourselves- that much is given to every man. Some things may difficult to discern but putting righteous heads together and the truth will prevail. Thus the importance of placing wise and righteous men in charge of our government and laws.

You are equating morality to the conscience? Or the light of Christ?

[Tsuzuki]

So your definition of moral is "treats other people well".

"treats other badly" is the only sin?

There are lots of sins, and you're free to define as many as you want for yourself. However, morality is not defined by them. They're too subjective.

[Tsuzuki]

Im interested in what you think it is about Mormons that oppresses others

Right now, some of them are trying to prevent gay people from getting married to the ones they love.

[Rob Osborn]

1. ALL morality is based on the rule that you should not do to someone else what you wouldn't want done to you. Also known as the Golden Rule.

 

2. Divine providence is nowhere provided for by the US Constitution.

 

3. I'm not totally convinced that we are moral creatures. Last I looked we do need a Savior because we can't follow the Golden Rule.

 

4. God is nowhere even mentioned in the US Constitution. We are not governed by God. We are governed by men. Under our laws We the People get to decide. Not Kings, not Popes, not Prophets. Moreover until God comes back and rules over all the earth. I want a say in how I am governed.

 

5. No we are NOT FREE because of God. We are free because we choose to be. Moreover we fight bloody wars to obtain and maintain that freedom.

 

6. The Founders were of debatable morals, and we don't, by in large, believe in the same God(There were many Deists in that bunch) as they did. Moreover some were atheists. Ever hear of Thomas Paine his writings more than any others provided the moral rationale for the American Revolution. He was an atheist. Ever hear of Thomas Jefferson, while not an atheist, he rewrote the Bible removing all references to God(s), deity, and the supernatural.

 

7. Courts of law don't decide morals. You can be a money grubbing lecherous old freak, and as long as you don't violate the law. The law has no claim on you. They are integral to deciding law.

 

8. Courts of law have an affirmative responsibility to decide what if any laws are, and how they effect marriages. If you don't like a particular ruling by a court of law. You do have the right of appeal, and if you so desire band together, with sufficient people, change that law. In this country that is called a majority of the votes.

 

9. God can recognize any marriage he wants to. The law, in the US, is that ANY with recognized proper legal authority can perform the wedding ceremony. I could if I wanted to could obtain the necessary legal clearance to perform the ceremony. Though I doubt the Church would be thrilled if I invoked its name in it.

 

10. What you believe is between you and God. What you do is between you and the State. That being said I oppose SSM but not upon legal grounds, but because of my morals grounds. Which is not sufficient to deny those that want it a SSM.

 

11. Moral grounds alone are insufficient to deny SSM rights. For thousands of years, and hundreds of years in the US, it was considered immoral, and illegal for people of differing races to intermarry. Add in that Bible decries marriage between differing religions. You'd be pretty surprised at what the Bible requires.

 

12. In the US religions are permitted to perform the wedding ceremony, and have the State recognize them. We(The US) doesn't get of marriage laws from God, the Bible, or the supernatural. We do get them from the ancient Romans, by way of the British.

 

More to the point. If all men were angels no government would be necessary; If all men were devils, no government would be possible.

Morality comes from God. We are born with the light of Christ to know and judge all things right and wrong. The Constitution was brought about by the Hand of Providence. As George Washington said- "[The adoption of the Constitution] will demonstrate as visibly the finger of Providence as any possible event in the course of human affairs can ever designate it."

It is literally Christ who makes us free. After that it is up to us to mainatian those rights of freedom on the same moral principles that have set us free from bondage itself. All our laws do is to sustain the freedom we are already granted to by God. Righteous Government does not give us freedom it can only maintain it. Bad government takes away freedom. Government itself, when properly run is just an institution that maintains moral law that already exists as the all well known right versus wrong. We should be careful that government is not solely responsible for interpreting what that moral law is.

SSM is a moral issue and the courts are being tested as to how to define the moral law in place. So far it has been failing. We even see a breakdown in the Constitutional process circumventing moral law as is seen in the recent prop 8 regarding SSM. Our elected leaders have a "moral responsibility" to uphold moral law- that which is morally right and that which is morally wrong. When our lawmakers find loopholes or go around it altogether then our divine Constitution, that principle of law. becomes a thing of naught and moral decay sets in to destroy our freedom.

Marriage should go back to being what and how it was designed for- a religious ceremony that carried with it the law of moral obedience. SSM is a blasphemous enemy to true marriage.