New Book Of Mormon Documentary Trailer

[Robert F. Smith]

You may want to look at the scripture more closely.  D&C 134:5 states, "We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments;" We don't sustain every government.  We support governments which protect our inalienable rights.  The Lord has never commanded us to uphold despotic governments. 

 

Additionally, the Constitution was not meant only for those who live in the United States of America.  D&C 101:77 informs us that the Lord inspired the Constitution to go forth throughout the world.  "According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;"  Again, you really ought to see the documentary.  It will help clear up many mistaken ideas that you have.

Speak for yourself, Anne, and then ask why it is that even totalitarian governments consider Mormons to be good citizens.  Behind the Iron Curtain, Mormons were not troublemakers, and were thus allowed to practice their religion, just as the government of mainland China does not interfere with Mormon religion among its people.  Mormons have a reputation for being industrious, optimistic, and honest, and that goes far toward giving us the kind of credibility which allows the Gospel of Jesus Christ to spread.  That should be the primary objective of the Kingdom of God on Earth.  Using that Gospel as a weapon in craven partisan ranting and raving is not just distasteful, it is the negation of that very Gospel.

[Robert F. Smith]

Welcome! Your presence here is much appreciated! Just thinking out loud, but I wonder why knowledgeable and  committed Latter-day Saints seem to find the ideas expressed in these documentaries distasteful. As for me, I just love these concepts because they powerfully demonstrate God is much more involved in human affairs than some may suppose. It's so inspiring to realize the pilgrims and the Founding Fathers understood their quest as a latter-day continuation of the ancient theme of the children of God being led to a new promised land of freedom, and, astonishingly, that's exactly what the Book of Mormon prophesied.  

Rather than accepting the false ideas being purveyed by the so-called Joseph Smith Foundation, Teddy, you  might want to actually study the issues in a serious way.  I suggest beginning with a course offered by BYU, called American Heritage 100.  It is required for all BYU students.  You can take the course online at http://is.byu.edu/site/courses/description.cfm?title=AHTG-100-201 .  It costs money, but you do get 3 academic credit hours for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

Have you ever read the book Prophecies and Promises?  It carefully deconstructs the notion that the Book of Mormon occurred in Mesoamerica using the prophecies and promises in the Book of Mormon itself.  

I have not read it, although I am familiar with the views held by the authors.  One of the authors is a member of my ward and HP group, and he is a very nice guy.  He knows my position, and I known his.

[Robert F. Smith]

teddyaware, on 08 Nov 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

I believe that the Lord has for a wise purpose intentionally kept the lands of the Nephites hidden from the world. Part of that divine wisdom is found in providing for a test of faith to see if men will trust in the voice of the Spirit or in the arm of flesh. The fact that you seem to be so sure the Nephites dwelt in Mexico or Mesoamerica is a leap of intellect I dare not take. I believe it's just as possible that the Book of Mormon events took place in the heartland of America as in Mesoamerica -- I'm keeping an open mind on the matter.

Robert F. Smith said:

Condemning the intellect is not an auspicious beginning for someone who claims to have an open mind. God probably gave us brains for a reason, and then set us out on our own. He has urged us to exercise faith and learning in coming to knowledge about all manner of things (D&C 88:118-119). Yet you reject His commandment. Why?

 

But of several things there is no doubt: It was in the lands of the United States that the Book of Mormon and its accompanying artifacts were hidden and discovered; it was in the United States that the prophesied righteous Gentiles, under the inspiration of God, arrived here from the lands of captivity and established the Declaration and the Constitution so that the Gospel might be restored; it was in the United States that the Gospel was restored; it is in the United States that we find the Lord's base of operations for the latter days; and it is in the heartland of the United States that the Zion of God and city of New Jerusalem will be built, as prophesied in the Book of Mormon.

 

To my mind, there is no doubt but that the United States is the promised land prophesied of in the Book of Mormon. In light of the list in my second paragraph, the reason why I believe the United States is the Book of Mormon's latter-day promised land is because it's the only land on earth that fits the description. Mexico and Mesoamerica don't at all fit the bill.

Robert F. Smith said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it is wrong. What they are not entitled to is to run roughshod over the facts. I would suggest studying the matter in a serious way before jumping to conclusions.

I'm not about to ask the following question to be snarky: I'd like to know where in the post, you here commented upon, was I "condemning the intellect. I only ask this of you because I now folks are often misunderstood and misinterpreted on boards like this one, so I wanted to see where in my language I may have appeared to convey the idea that I condemn the intellect, as I can't see where in my writing you may have gotten that notion.

 

As to your saying I'm jumping to conclusions, I believe I said I have an open mind on the subject of the whereabouts of the Nephite civilization. So I have a second question: Where in my post did I jump to conclusions? I would much appreciate your input because you are an intelligent fellow and I'm trying to learn how to make my language more precise and less apt to be misinterpreted. 

 

All the best...

I have inserted your and my posts you are referring to, Teddy, and have bolded the portions which you might want to examine for relevance. Edited November 15, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[teddyaware]

teddyaware, on 08 Nov 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

 

I have inserted your and my posts you are referring to, Teddy, and have bolded the portions which you might want to examine for relevance.

 

Robert: I suppose all of this boils down to whether or not the present day United States is the promised latter-day promised land prophesied of in the Book of Mormon. I believe it is very likely that the US is that prophesied promised because it can be demonstrably shown it fits the scriptural description promised land, regardless of whether or the Nephites actually made their abode here or not . Among the many, many indicators that the US is most likely the Prophesied promised land, I've listed some below:

 

1  The first vision took place here.

2  The Book of Mormon was buried and discovered here.

3  The Book of Mormon was translated and published here.

4  The Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods were restored here.

5  This is the place where the Restored Church of Christ was established and organized.

6  This is the place where many angels of heaven came to restore the gospel and its keys.

7 This is the place where the Doctrine and Covenants was written. 

8  This is the place where the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham were restored.

9  This is the place where the Lord commanded His latter-day servants to establish and build Zion.

10 This is the place where the first temples of the dispensation of the fullness of times were erected.

12 This is the place where the world headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is located.

13 This is the place where the center stake of latter-day Zion will be built. 

14 This is the place where the New Jerusalem, and the great temple complex, planned by Joseph Smith, will be built.

15 This is the place where the religious pilgrims, who fled the captivity of the European nations of the Gentiles, came as their new promised land, just as described in the Book  of Mormon.

16 This is the place where the divinely inspired Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States were produced. 

17 This is the place, spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon, that was prophesied to miraculously prevail in war against the oppressive Gentile mother lands of captivity in Europe.

 

My point? Though in some technical sense the United States may not be the Book of Mormon's latter-day land of promise, it may as well be because it fits the description so very well. Even so, like I said, I'm keeping and open mind on the matter; but the United States sure does seem to fit most, if not all, of all the descriptions of the latter-day promised land foreseen in the scriptures. And to top it all off, Apostle Perry, in a recent address, said the US is the latter-day promised land prophesied in the Book of Mormon. 

Edited November 15, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

Duplicate

Edited November 15, 2013 by teddyaware

[Stroopwafel]

You obviously have not seen the film as it debunks the idea that the Constitution or the founding fathers were the product of the "Enlightenment" but rather came from the Reformation/Bible and from revelation/inspiration.  At the recent Book of Mormon evidence conference, the Joseph Smith Foundation announced they are currently producing another documentary that will further refute the false notion that the Constitution came from Rome, Greece and the Enlightenment.

 

I'll give as much credence to this film and its content as you seem to be giving to the literature supporting (with strong evidence and concensus I might add) the major influence classical education had on the work of the founding fathers.

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert: I suppose all of this boils down to whether or not the present day United States is the promised latter-day promised land prophesied of in the Book of Mormon. I believe it is very likely that the US is that prophesied promised because it can be demonstrably shown it fits the scriptural description promised land, regardless of whether or the Nephites actually made their abode here or not . Among the many, many indicators that the US is most likely the Prophesied promised land, I've listed some below:

 

1  The first vision took place here.

2  The Book of Mormon was buried and discovered here.

3  The Book of Mormon was translated and published here.

4  The Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods were restored here.

5  This is the place where the Restored Church of Christ was established and organized.

6  This is the place where many angels of heaven came to restore the gospel and its keys.

7 This is the place where the Doctrine and Covenants was written. 

8  This is the place where the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham were restored.

9  This is the place where the Lord commanded His latter-day servants to establish and build Zion.

10 This is the place where the first temples of the dispensation of the fullness of times were erected.

12 This is the place where the world headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is located.

13 This is the place where the center stake of latter-day Zion will be built. 

14 This is the place where the New Jerusalem, and the great temple complex, planned by Joseph Smith, will be built.

15 This is the place where the religious pilgrims, who fled the captivity of the European nations of the Gentiles, came as their new promised land, just as described in the Book  of Mormon.

16 This is the place where the divinely inspired Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States were produced. 

17 This is the place, spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon, that was prophesied to miraculously prevail in war against the oppressive Gentile mother lands of captivity in Europe.

 

My point? Though in some technical sense the United States may not be the Book of Mormon's latter-day land of promise, it may as well be because it fits the description so very well. Even so, like I said, I'm keeping and open mind on the matter; but the United States sure does seem to fit most, if not all, of all the descriptions of the latter-day promised land foreseen in the scriptures. And to top it all off, Apostle Perry, in a recent address, said the US is the latter-day promised land prophesied in the Book of Mormon. 

I have no major objection to your holding a hemispheric interpretation of the Book of Mormon -- in which Canada, the USA, the United States of Mexico (Estados Unidos de Mexico), and all Latin American countries participate in the Book of Mormon prophecies and promises.  The Gentiles came to all those countries from Europe, and many of them have constitutions modeled on the US Constitution.  Most of them had revolutions to throw off the colonial yoke.  Some of them have had civil wars, and have problems with major criminal syndicates (just as we did) as they work to modernize.  Brazil only gave up slavery in the 1880s and is as big a country as the USA.  The capital of Mexico is called the Distrito Federal, just like our Washington, DC.  Freedom's progress is wonderful, is it not?

 

Of course the Amerinds may have some objections to that storyline, since their land has been stolen from them, and most of them have been systematically exterminated (treaties with them having been violated with impunity).  Sometimes the grandeur is pitiful in its atavism, and mendacity reigns supreme.  Everyone conveniently forgets about the gross mistreatment of the Mormons, and the still visible stain of slavery in this country.

.

[canard78]

Hi Ellen, That's why I said this film's trailer would inspire some and distress others. The makers of this film have a decidedly Ezra Taft Benson like take on the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and the role of the United States in the last days. President Benson was and still is a polarizing figure in the world and even in the Church. It will be very interesting to see if he was correct in making all his dire predictions and warnings about America being subjected to a modern-day, Book of Mormon style secret combination set up to destroy liberty and the Constitution.

The beauty of prophecies is they tend to be so ambiguous that the advocates can claim they're met while everyone else is still waiting.

I'm not, however, familiar with Prez Benson's apparent constitutional warnings. Do you have a link?

ETA:

Do you mean this kind of stuff:

“In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time "this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction” (Conference Report, October 1961, p.70).

“The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang as it were by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the last thirty years have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis. Will there be some of us who won't care about saving the Constitution, others who will be blinded by the craftiness of men, and some who will knowingly be working to destroy it? He that has ears to hear and eyes to see can discern by the Spirit and through the words of God's mouthpiece that our liberties are being taken” (Conference Report, April 1963, p.113).

"14 Fundamentals in Following the Prophet":

"God has preserved you for the eleventh hour—the great and dreadful day of the Lord. It will be your responsibility not only to help “bare off” the kingdom of God triumphantly but to save your own soul to strive to save those of your own family and to honor the principles of our inspired constitution, which at this time seems to be almost hanging by a thread"

Out of interest, how many threads do you think the constitution is currently hanging from? Is it down to "a" thread or several?

If some American Mormons (and perhaps past or present leaders) take this literally and really believe they will eventually be the last bastion of defence against the plummeting of the American Constitution to its complete destruction it helps to explain why some of them get so animated about things affecting other people. I don't understand, for example, why do many millions was spent on proposition 8 campaigning but European gay marriage laws have been passed by the dozen and the church hasn't made the slightest whimper of opposition.

Is gay marriage, for example, somehow a threat to your (supposedly divinely inspired, but many times amended) Constitution? Or was that simply church members wanting to impose their moral values on other people's agency? Isn't an active opposition to gay marriage, for example, actually non-constitutional?

I'm not interested in a gay marriage conversation per se. I'm curios to know what evidence there is for the constitution being under threat and on what basis American Mormons are going to rescue it.

Edited November 16, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

Robert: I suppose all of this boils down to whether or not the present day United States is the promised latter-day promised land prophesied of in the Book of Mormon. I believe it is very likely that the US is that prophesied promised because it can be demonstrably shown it fits the scriptural description promised land, regardless of whether or the Nephites actually made their abode here or not . Among the many, many indicators that the US is most likely the Prophesied promised land, I've listed some below:

1 The first vision took place here.

2 The Book of Mormon was buried and discovered here.

3 The Book of Mormon was translated and published here.

4 The Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods were restored here.

5 This is the place where the Restored Church of Christ was established and organized.

6 This is the place where many angels of heaven came to restore the gospel and its keys.

7 This is the place where the Doctrine and Covenants was written.

8 This is the place where the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham were restored.

9 This is the place where the Lord commanded His latter-day servants to establish and build Zion.

10 This is the place where the first temples of the dispensation of the fullness of times were erected.

12 This is the place where the world headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is located.

13 This is the place where the center stake of latter-day Zion will be built.

14 This is the place where the New Jerusalem, and the great temple complex, planned by Joseph Smith, will be built.

15 This is the place where the religious pilgrims, who fled the captivity of the European nations of the Gentiles, came as their new promised land, just as described in the Book of Mormon.

16 This is the place where the divinely inspired Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States were produced.

17 This is the place, spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon, that was prophesied to miraculously prevail in war against the oppressive Gentile mother lands of captivity in Europe.

My point? Though in some technical sense the United States may not be the Book of Mormon's latter-day land of promise, it may as well be because it fits the description so very well. Even so, like I said, I'm keeping and open mind on the matter; but the United States sure does seem to fit most, if not all, of all the descriptions of the latter-day promised land foreseen in the scriptures. And to top it all off, Apostle Perry, in a recent address, said the US is the latter-day promised land prophesied in the Book of Mormon.

Wow. You really believe this don't you? You really believe that the United States of America is a divinely appointed, special country.

Genuine question, is this just the belief of Mormons or do lots of Americans also believe in the divine approval of your country?

I squirm at that attitude. That somehow the country and, by implication, the inhabitants, their policies, their expansion plans and global interference, are special, superior and receive divine approval. It's a worryingly scary attitude.

By the way, you missed the Garden of Eden and Adam's altar from your list. You might as well claim to be the origin of the species. The Neanderthals would be happy to give that crown up to the Americans. Once you don a helmet and throw an oval ball with pointy ends onto a field there's little discernible difference. Either that or put a gun in your hands.

And Taffy. Surely taffy is evidence of USA being the best in the world at everything?

Edited November 16, 2013 by canard78

[teddyaware]

Wow. You really believe this don't you? You really believe that the United States of America is a divinely appointed, special country.

Genuine question, is this just the belief of Mormons or do lots of Americans also believe in the divine approval of your country?

I squirm at that attitude. That somehow the country and, by implication, the inhabitants, their policies, their expansion plans and global interference, are special, superior and receive divine approval. It's a worryingly scary attitude.

By the way, you missed the Garden of Eden and Adam's altar from your list. You might as well claim to be the origin of the species. The Neanderthals would be happy to give that crown up to the Americans. Once you don a helmet and throw an oval ball with pointy ends onto a field there's little discernible difference. Either that or put a gun in your hands.

And Taffy. Surely taffy is evidence of USA being the best in the world at everything?

 

Just setting forth the teachings of my religion, Canard. Am I supposed to keep silent about the teachings of my religion just because you don't like to read about them?

 

Where you went wrong (above) is with the "by implication" statement  The United States is descending deeper and deeper into wickedness, just as the Nephites did just before they experienced divine judgment and the wrath of God, and the promises connected to the blessings of the land of promise are only predicated upon righteousness, Where much is given, much is required. The populace of this nation is ever more and more inclined to chose wicked leaders and live immoral lives, and this land of promise is suffering the inevitable consequences connected to those choices. 

[teddyaware]

I have no major objection to your holding a hemispheric interpretation of the Book of Mormon -- in which Canada, the USA, the United States of Mexico (Estados Unidos de Mexico), and all Latin American countries participate in the Book of Mormon prophecies and promises.  The Gentiles came to all those countries from Europe, and many of them have constitutions modeled on the US Constitution.  Most of them had revolutions to throw off the colonial yoke.  Some of them have had civil wars, and have problems with major criminal syndicates (just as we did) as they work to modernize.  Brazil only gave up slavery in the 1880s and is as big a country as the USA.  The capital of Mexico is called the Distrito Federal, just like our Washington, DC.  Freedom's progress is wonderful, is it not?

 

Of course the Amerinds may have some objections to that storyline, since their land has been stolen from them, and most of them have been systematically exterminated (treaties with them having been violated with impunity).  Sometimes the grandeur is pitiful in its atavism, and mendacity reigns supreme.  Everyone conveniently forgets about the gross mistreatment of the Mormons, and the still visible stain of slavery in this country.

.

 

Yet, somehow, the purposes of God roll on. And the ultimate salvation of the vast majority of His children is assured. The Lord allows evil and injustice to exist so that we might be tried in the refiner's fire. Yes, many evils and injustices have been perpetrated  in our fallen world, yet God allows these things to exist for a wise and glorious purpose. The greatest of all this world's injustices was the wicked judgment and unjust punishment carried out upon the Christ; yet, in the economy of God, this greatest of all travesties of justice turned out to be the greatest of all blessings. 

Edited November 16, 2013 by teddyaware

[Stroopwafel]

Wow. You really believe this don't you? You really believe that the United States of America is a divinely appointed, special country.

Genuine question, is this just the belief of Mormons or do lots of Americans also believe in the divine approval of your country?

 

Unfortunately, it seems as if this view of America isn't exclusive to members of the Church in the States (and sometimes from other countries!). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism.

 

However, the Church by its origins and doctrines taps into this very American attitude. Despite international outreach efforts and actually being present in many different countries, the Church can't help but still be perceived as "the American religion".

 

Yet, historically, this particular type of sentiment can be found elsewhere. Take for instance the concept of universalism as it relates to monarchies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_monarchy

 

Also, France has what is known as Republican Universalism. It's the idea the the principles upon which the republic was founded are to eventually be adopted by all human beings, and that these principles apply to all human beings. Very interesting if you ask me. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalisme_républicain. Note that the article is in French since there is no English translation of the wiki entry. But here is a Google translation anyways Republican Universalism.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Stroopwafel

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Just setting forth the teachings of my religion, Canard.

 

*cough*

 

There are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it -- therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them.

-- D&C 123 

 

All sects, parties, and denominations. That includes us, in our religion and politics. 

“The Mussulman condemns the heathen, the Jew, and the Christian, and the whole world of mankind that reject his Koran, as infidels, and consigns the whole of them to perdition. The Jew believes that the whole world that rejects his faith and are not circumcised, are Gentile dogs, and will be damned. The heathen is equally as tenacious about his principles, and the Christian consigns all to perdition who cannot bow to his creed, and submit to his ipse dixit.

 

But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feeling that influence the children of men, causes “His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, “according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,” or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, “not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,” those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family."

-- Joseph Smith

 

 7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

 

 8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

 

 9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

 

 10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

 

 11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

 

 12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

 

-- 2 Nephi 29 

 

We're a worldwide church. Utah -- "Zion" -- was Mexican, and wasn't even a part of the United States when the Saints first settled there. It's the earth that we're trying to turn into the Garden of Eden, not a particular country. We're not blessed by which country we live in, we're blessed by whether or not we follow the commandments and love our neighbors as ourselves. The Promised Land is the entire planet, which we're supposed to care for and replenish as stewards and gardeners.  

Edited November 16, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Tacenda]

Unfortunately, it seems as if this view of America isn't exclusive to members of the Church in the States (and sometimes from other countries!). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism.

However, the Church by its origins and doctrines taps into this very American attitude. Despite international outreach efforts and actually being present in many different countries, the Church can't help but still be perceived as "the American religion".

Yet, historically, this particular type of sentiment can be found elsewhere. Take for instance the concept of universalism as it relates to monarchies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_monarchy

Also, France has what is known as Republican Universalism. It's the idea the the principles upon which the republic was founded are to eventually be adopted by all human beings, and that these principles apply to all human beings. Very interesting if you ask me. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalisme_républicain. Note that the article is in French since there is no English translation of the wiki entry. But here is a Google translation anyways Republican Universalism.

So countries can be like churches or religious systems and segregate themselves as to being the correct one. That's my spin. Wow, what a world of humans we are. It makes me think of John Lennon's words in a song....come together...right now...

Edited November 16, 2013 by Tacenda

[volgadon]

Also, France has what is known as Republican Universalism. It's the idea the the principles upon which the republic was founded are to eventually be adopted by all human beings, and that these principles apply to all human beings. Very interesting if you ask me. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalisme_républicain. Note that the article is in French since there is no English translation of the wiki entry. But here is a Google translation anyways Republican Universalism.

 

That is the basis of this line from Robert Burns' "A Man's a Man for a' That."

 

Then let us pray that come it may,

(As come it will for a' that,)

That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,

Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.

For a' that, an' a' that,

It's coming yet for a' that,

That Man to Man, the world o'er,

Shall brothers be for a' that.

[canard78]

 

 

 

*cough*

 

 

 

All sects, parties, and denominations. That includes us, in our religion and politics. 

 

 

 

We're a worldwide church. Utah -- "Zion" -- was Mexican, and wasn't even a part of the United States when the Saints first settled there. It's the earth that we're trying to turn into the Garden of Eden, not a particular country. We're not blessed by which country we live in, we're blessed by whether or not we follow the commandments and love our neighbors as ourselves. The Promised Land is the entire planet, which we're supposed to care for and replenish as stewards and gardeners.  

 

 

Outstanding post. Fills me with hope

[canard78]

Just setting forth the teachings of my religion, Canard. Am I supposed to keep silent about the teachings of my religion just because you don't like to read about them?

 

 

Your religion? I was under the impression it was either God's or possibly "ours." What you're actually saying is "Just setting forth my interpretations of Mormonism... am I supposed to keep silent about my interpretations of the teachings of my religion just because you don't like to read them?"

 

Having said that, perhaps you have represented the teachings of your religion. But on that basis I'd have to conclude that you have a different religion than the Mormonism I was raised in. What religion are you?

 

And no, you don't have to keep silent. I don't even have to read this thread. I wouldn't come back here very often if I agreed with everyone here all the time. It would spoil the fun.

 

Where you went wrong (above) is with the "by implication" statement  The United States is descending deeper and deeper into wickedness, just as the Nephites did just before they experienced divine judgment and the wrath of God, and the promises connected to the blessings of the land of promise are only predicated upon righteousness, Where much is given, much is required. The populace of this nation is ever more and more inclined to chose wicked leaders and live immoral lives, and this land of promise is suffering the inevitable consequences connected to those choices. 

 

 

Which leaders did you have in mind specifically? When you talk of wicked leaders, was there anyone you were thinking of? What about that chap who beat Bro. Romney?

 

One parting thought from a member of the first presidency:

 

To become a worldwide Church in various cultures and nations, the doctrinal truths of the restored gospel will be the guiding star, not our political background, not even some of the present Church programs. It is the Spirit that counts.

 

A diverse Latter-day Saint people cannot have brotherhood if one of its segments insists on being always right, all the time, on everything. The gospel is transcendent truth—man-made political and social institutions are not. In social, cultural, and political areas, we cannot expect that widely divergent people should adhere to the same specific perspectives. It is certain that some aspects of culture, ideology, and political practices are more compatible with gospel principles than others, and from that point they are temporally preferable, but only the principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ constitute eternal truth.

 

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/global-mormonism-21st-century/20-church-cross-cultural-world

 

The constitution of America is a man-made political construct. Therefore it is not "transcendent truth."

[canard78]

Unfortunately, it seems as if this view of America isn't exclusive to members of the Church in the States (and sometimes from other countries!). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism.

 

However, the Church by its origins and doctrines taps into this very American attitude. Despite international outreach efforts and actually being present in many different countries, the Church can't help but still be perceived as "the American religion".

 

Thanks. In that sense, Mormonism is very much a product of American exceptionalism.

 

(When I say Mormonism in this post I mean the teachings of leaders at different times, the attitudes of many of the members)

[Tacenda]

Thanks. In that sense, Mormonism is very much a product of American exceptionalism.

 

(When I say Mormonism in this post I mean the teachings of leaders at different times, the attitudes of many of the members)

Wasn't the United State's founders steeped in Freemasonry?  Something to think about.

 

ETA:

• John Adams - Spoke favorably of Freemasonry -- never joined
• Samuel Adams - (Close and principle associate of Hancock, Revere & other Masons
• Ethan Allen - Mason
• Edmund Burke - Mason
• John Claypoole - Mason
• William Daws - Mason
• Benjamin Franklin - Mason
• Nathan Hale - No evidence of Masonic connections
• John Hancock - Mason
• Benjamin Harrison - No evidence of Masonic connections
• Patrick Henry - No evidence of Masonic connections
• Thomas Jefferson - Deist with some evidence of Masonic connections
• John Paul Jones - Mason
• Francis Scott Key - No evidence of Masonic connections
• Robert Livingston - Mason
• James Madison - Some evidence of Masonic membership
• Thomas Paine - Humanist
• Paul Revere - Mason
• Colonel Benjamin Tupper - Mason
• George Washington - Mason
• Daniel Webster - Some evidence of Masonic connections

Summary: 10 Masons, 3 probable Masons, 1 Humanist, 2 Advocates of Freemasonry, 4 no record of connections

 

And I guess our church has been affected as well (Masonry), because JS, family and friends were closely yoked to both Masonry & Americanism.  Doesn't mean the church needs to stick with it entirely.  Maybe it brings all nations together in a way, with our huge missionary force.       

Edited November 16, 2013 by Tacenda

[halconero]

Wasn't the United State's founders steeped in Freemasonry?  Something to think about.

 

I would say that their being steeped in the classical liberalism of Locke and Smith, mixed in with a little Burkean conservatism had a greater influence.

[Stroopwafel]

So countries can be like churches or religious systems and segregate themselves as to being the correct one.

 

The line between politics and religious systems is thin in that they often go hand in hand. It is all a matter of holding, securing and increasing/spreading power. Historically, religion has often served the interests of politics, or at least of particular parties within the politics.

 

Also, although not strictly the same as American exceptionalism, all the great empire have had this "drive" to unify the world under one government (Let it be clear though that I'm not hinting at any of those conspiracy theories). Ancient Rome is a well known example. Also, the European Union is modeled by a similar "drive".

[omni]

 

Where you went wrong (above) is with the "by implication" statement  The United States is descending deeper and deeper into wickedness, just as the Nephites did just before they experienced divine judgment and the wrath of God, and the promises connected to the blessings of the land of promise are only predicated upon righteousness, Where much is given, much is required. The populace of this nation is ever more and more inclined to chose wicked leaders and live immoral lives, and this land of promise is suffering the inevitable consequences connected to those choices.

I'd be curious to know your opinion on what countries are currently righteous and god-fearing?

[canard78]

I'd be curious to know your opinion on what countries are currently righteous and god-fearing?

None of course. The whole world is going to he!! in a hand-basket.

[teddyaware]

I'd be curious to know your opinion on what countries are currently righteous and god-fearing?

 

The Book of Mormon tells us a nation loses the status of being classified as righteous when a majority of the population choose to be unrighteous. This principle is mentioned at least three time in the Book of Mormon. And so we read:

 

2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5)

 

19 Yea, well did Mosiah say, who was our last king, when he was about to deliver up the kingdom, having no one to confer it upon, causing that this people should be governed by their own voices—yea, well did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction. (Alma 10)

 

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29)

 

At this time of very widespread rebellion against God and His laws, I'm not sure which nations of the earth could still be classified as righteous nations.

Edited November 16, 2013 by teddyaware