New Book Of Mormon Documentary Trailer

[canard78]

The Book of Mormon tells us a nation loses the status of being classified as righteous when a majority of the population choose to be unrighteous. This principle is mentioned at least three time in the Book of Mormon. And so we read:

 

2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5)

 

19 Yea, well did Mosiah say, who was our last king, when he was about to deliver up the kingdom, having no one to confer it upon, causing that this people should be governed by their own voices—yea, well did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction. (Alma 10)

 

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29)

 

At this time of very widespread rebellion against God and His laws, I'm not sure which nations of the earth could still be classified as righteous nations.

 

The Nephites were always in a minority based on a war-time head count. On that basis, they were always in a minority in "whatever-land-they-lived-in."

 

Besides, none of your references say what your first sentence claims they are saying.

[teddyaware]

Your religion? I was under the impression it was either God's or possibly "ours." What you're actually saying is "Just setting forth my interpretations of Mormonism... am I supposed to keep silent about my interpretations of the teachings of my religion just because you don't like to read them?"

 

Having said that, perhaps you have represented the teachings of your religion. But on that basis I'd have to conclude that you have a different religion than the Mormonism I was raised in. What religion are you?

 

And no, you don't have to keep silent. I don't even have to read this thread. I wouldn't come back here very often if I agreed with everyone here all the time. It would spoil the fun.

 

 

Which leaders did you have in mind specifically? When you talk of wicked leaders, was there anyone you were thinking of? What about that chap who beat Bro. Romney?

 

One parting thought from a member of the first presidency:

 

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/global-mormonism-21st-century/20-church-cross-cultural-world

 

The constitution of America is a man-made political construct. Therefore it is not "transcendent truth."

 

Since I believe the Doctrine and Covenants to be the word of God, I take the Lord seriously when he declared therein:

 

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

 

I cannot help it if someone doesn't believe the Constitution of the United States was inspired by God, but considers it to be merely "a man-made political construct." One might argue the Constitution is a man-made political construct -- and therefore uninspired by the most high God -- till they're blue in the face -- but I believe it is inspired of God and rejoice in that blessed knowledge.  

[teddyaware]

The Nephites were always in a minority based on a war-time head count. On that basis, they were always in a minority in "whatever-land-they-lived-in."

 

Besides, none of your references say what your first sentence claims they are saying.

 

The Lamanites were a separate people and did not go to the Nephite's polling stations to vote on election day. You know, like Lithuanian citizens aren't supposed to vote in our elections?

Edited November 16, 2013 by teddyaware

[canard78]

Since I believe the Doctrine and Covenants to be the word of God, I take the Lord seriously when he declared therein:

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

I cannot help it if someone doesn't believe the Constitution of the United States was inspired by God, but considers it to be merely "a man-made political construct." One might argue the Constitution is a man-made political construct -- and therefore uninspired by the most high God -- till they're blue in the face -- but I believe it is inspired of God and rejoice in that blessed knowledge.

I've read the same verses. I don't reach the same conclusions as you do. Such is life.

[canard78]

The Lamanites were a separate people and did not go to the Nephite's polling stations to vote on election day. You know, like Lithuanian citizens aren't supposed to vote in our elections?

And since when has a vote been a definition of a citizen?

On that basis USA only has 126million citizens based on 2012 turnout. And China had no citizens at all, given they haven't had an election in decades. How many polling stations did Sodom & Gomorrah have?

[teddyaware]

And since when has a vote been a definition of a citizen?

On that basis USA only has 126million citizens based on 2012 turnout. And China had no citizens at all, given they haven't had an election in decades. How many polling stations did Sodom & Gomorrah have?

 

Really stretching and contorting here, aren't we? Although we're told the Nephites and Lamanites lived somewhat proximity to each other, for most the most part they didn't mingle but remained separate nations. What's so hard to understand about this? 

 

Also, the Lord doesn't need to study election results in order to judge the righteousness of a nation; the reason being He knows what's in each person's heart. 

 

And in nations having free and fair elections, when there are critical choices to be made between good or evil leaders, those citizens who do not care enough about their nation's survival in righteousness to actually go out and vote have already revealed their irresponsibility and indifference to the cause of righteousness by choosing to not make their voices heard. By deciding to not step forward at critical junctures in their nation's history, in timely attempts to save their nation from the ascension of evil leaders to positions of power, they reveal they are wicked and slothful servants without actually casting their vote one way or another.

Edited November 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[omni]

The Book of Mormon tells us a nation loses the status of being classified as righteous when a majority of the population choose to be unrighteous. This principle is mentioned at least three time in the Book of Mormon. And so we read:

 

2 For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5)

 

19 Yea, well did Mosiah say, who was our last king, when he was about to deliver up the kingdom, having no one to confer it upon, causing that this people should be governed by their own voices—yea, well did he say that if the time should come that the voice of this people should choose iniquity, that is, if the time should come that this people should fall into transgression, they would be ripe for destruction. (Alma 10)

 

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29)

 

At this time of very widespread rebellion against God and His laws, I'm not sure which nations of the earth could still be classified as righteous nations.

So do believe there was a time when the United States was considered by God to be a righteous nation and if so when?

[volgadon]

I've read the same verses. I don't reach the same conclusions as you do. Such is life.

 

Amen. i suspect that our views are close. The US constitution is certainly a remarkable, inspiring, and influential document- inspired by God if you will- yet by our own doctrine it is hardly the end-all or even the most ideal form of government. That is to be a communitarian theocracy. The constitution is a lesser form, a temporal thing. Still, when it comes to constitutional jingoists, i like to point this out. http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/26

[canard78]

Amen. i suspect that our views are close. The US constitution is certainly a remarkable, inspiring, and influential document- inspired by God if you will- yet by our own doctrine it is hardly the end-all or even the most ideal form of government. That is to be a communitarian theocracy. The constitution is a lesser form, a temporal thing. Still, when it comes to constitutional jingoists, i like to point this out. http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/26

Very interesting, had never heard of this before.

Thus the Ukrainian constitution of 1710 preceded those of the United States, France and Poland, and attested to the democratic thinking of the Ukrainian Cossack elite.

Ted, I'm LDS too. I fundamentally disagree with your interpretation of LDS scripture. Nothing you've shared has convinced me and I'm sure the same can be said of you with regards to what I've said. On that basis I'm going to step out of this thread and leave you to it.

[Tiki]

Amen. i suspect that our views are close. The US constitution is certainly a remarkable, inspiring, and influential document- inspired by God if you will- yet by our own doctrine it is hardly the end-all or even the most ideal form of government. That is to be a communitarian theocracy. The constitution is a lesser form, a temporal thing. Still, when it comes to constitutional jingoists, i like to point this out. http://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/26

If there is any "jingoism" going on, it was spelled forth in the Pylyp Orlyk Constitution to which your link refers:

Article 1

" Whereas among the three theological virtues faith is the first, one should in this first article deal with the Orthodox faith of the Eastern confession, with which the valiant Cossack people was enlightened under the rule of Khazar princes by the Apostolic See of Constantinople, and to which it has remained unwaveringly faithful then and now, without straying from it to any alien religion."

And...

"Therefore, if God our Lord, strong and mighty in battle, should assist the victorious armies of His Royal Majesty the King of Sweden to liberate our fatherland from the Muscovite yoke of slavery, the present newly elected Hetman will be bound by duty and put under obligation to take special care that no alien religion is introduced into our Ruthenian [Rossiacam] fatherland. Should one, however, appear anywhere, either secretly or openly, he will be bound to extirpate it through his authority, not allow it to be preached or dissem­inated, and not permit any dissenters, most of all the adherents of deceitful Judaism, to live in Ukraine, and will be bound to make every possible effort that only the Orthodox faith of the Eastern confession, under obedi­ence to the Holy Apostolic See of Constantinople, be established firmly for ever..."

What a piece of Anti-Semitic tripe, pro-Eastern Orthodox State Church establishing garbage.

And this comparable to the US Constitution which was set up to allow for the Restoration of The Gospel of Jesus Christ and The Kingdom of God upon the Earth?

NO WONDER JEWS WERE PERSECUTED IN THE UKRAINE!

LOL!

Edited November 17, 2013 by Tiki

[volgadon]

Very interesting, had never heard of this before.

"and attested to the democratic thinking of the Ukrainian Cossack elite."

 

 

As my wife (who descends from several Cossack families) explained, if they didn't like a leader they could always knock him out (literally). =)

[volgadon]

If there is any "jingoism" going on, it was spelled forth in Pylyp Orlyk Constituiton:

Article 1

" Whereas among the three theological virtues faith is the first, one should in this first article deal with the Orthodox faith of the Eastern confession, with which the valiant Cossack people was enlightened under the rule of Khazar princes by the Apostolic See of Constantinople, and to which it has remained unwaveringly faithful then and now, without straying from it to any alien religion."

And...

"Therefore, if God our Lord, strong and mighty in battle, should assist the victorious armies of His Royal Majesty the King of Sweden to liberate our fatherland from the Muscovite yoke of slavery, the present newly elected Hetman will be bound by duty and put under obligation to take special care that no alien religion is introduced into our Ruthenian [Rossiacam] fatherland. Should one, however, appear anywhere, either secretly or openly, he will be bound to extirpate it through his authority, not allow it to be preached or dissem­inated, and not permit any dissenters, most of all the adherents of deceitful Judaism, to live in Ukraine, and will be bound to make every possible effort that only the Orthodox faith of the Eastern confession, under obedi­ence to the Holy Apostolic See of Constantinople, be established firmly for ever..."

What a piece of Anti-Semitic tripe, pro-Eastern Orthodox State-created Church garbage.

And this comparable to the US Constitution? Oh please.

 

Never said that it was perfect, but it was the first and it was ahead of its time, over 60 years before anything similar was fully drafted in the Americas.

[volgadon]

And this comparable to the US Constitution which was set up to allow for the Restoration of The Gospel of Jesus Christ and The Kingdom of God upon the Earth?

NO WONDER JEWS WERE PERSECUTED IN THE UKRAINE!

LOL!

 

 

 

it is a good thing, then, that no Mormons were ever persecuted in the US.

LOL indeed.

[volgadon]

 

 

 

*cough*

 

 

 

All sects, parties, and denominations. That includes us, in our religion and politics. 

 

 

 

We're a worldwide church. Utah -- "Zion" -- was Mexican, and wasn't even a part of the United States when the Saints first settled there. It's the earth that we're trying to turn into the Garden of Eden, not a particular country. We're not blessed by which country we live in, we're blessed by whether or not we follow the commandments and love our neighbors as ourselves. The Promised Land is the entire planet, which we're supposed to care for and replenish as stewards and gardeners.  

 

 

Write more on this, it is one of my favourite topics. The entire earth is the eventual promised land for all, but I think you'll agree that in the meantime as we strive towards that goal, God does have smaller, more limited promised lands. Martin Buber very insightfully observed a covenant people must have their own land where under God's blessings by adherence to his ideals they bring about a transformation in both land and self. After all, how else to be a light unto the gentiles, as Isaiah prophesied?

[Tiki]

it is a good thing, then, that no Mormons were ever persecuted in the US.

LOL indeed.

Oh I get your argument and its lack of logic:

The persecution of Mormons in the US was caused by the persecutors disobeying the Law Of The Land, namely The Constitution of The United States of America, which allows religious freedom, said Constitution established by wise men raised up for that purpose as declared by The Lord in D&C 101.

And this is comparable to the persecution of Jews (your ancestors) in the Ukraine declared LEGAL to persecute Jews by the PYLYP ORLYCK Constitution written by a madman Cossack beholden to the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, establishing said Catholic faith as a State Church in the Ukraine to the restriction and removal of all other faiths?

And this your evidence for YOUR PRIVATE interpretation of D&C 101:80?

LOL!

[teddyaware]

So do believe there was a time when the United States was considered by God to be a righteous nation and if so when?

 

The righteousness of this nation's people has ebbed and flowed over the years, just as did the righteousness of the Nephites. But I'd say the United States was more righteous than it is today when out of wedlock births were still considered scandalous and before out of wedlock births reached 41% over all; the US was more righteous when abortions were considered and abomination and before 55,000,000 abortions have been performed since 1973; more righteous when teens rarely had premarital sex and before premarital teen sex became the norm; more righteous when most people stayed married through thick and thin and before divorce reached the 50% mark; more righteous when pornography was "underground" and mostly out of sight before it became an omnipresent plague; more righteous when wholesome movies, TV and other forms of popular entertainment were the norm and before the popular culture became a cesspool of immorality, profanity and twisted values; more righteous when the popular will would not have allowed a President of the United States to remain in office after turning the sacred precincts of the Oval Office into a den of iniquity and before a President was allowed to remain in office for doing the same. And I could go on and on... 

 

Be sure to remember, though, the periods when the US was more righteous means just that, it was more righteous, not devoid of some percentage of wickedness and immorality. As I said before, the benchmark the Lord uses, according to scripture, when judging the righteousness or unrighteousness of a nation, appears to be a participation rate in unrighteous behavior of about 51% and over. This principle is verified in the Book of Mosiah when King Mosiah solemnly declared:

 

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29)

 

Words could not be plainer. For an active member of the Church to read the above and then try to find wiggle room, gray areas, and exceptions to the general rule of the above divine principle, as set forth by Mosiah, is nothing less to my mind than trying to negate -- for reasons beyond the scope of my understanding-- the declared mind and will of the Lord. 

Edited November 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[Robert F. Smith]

canard78, on 16 Nov 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Your religion? I was under the impression it was either God's or possibly "ours." What you're actually saying is "Just setting forth my interpretations of Mormonism... am I supposed to keep silent about my interpretations of the teachings of my religion just because you don't like to read them?"

 

Having said that, perhaps you have represented the teachings of your religion. But on that basis I'd have to conclude that you have a different religion than the Mormonism I was raised in. What religion are you?

 

And no, you don't have to keep silent. I don't even have to read this thread. I wouldn't come back here very often if I agreed with everyone here all the time. It would spoil the fun.

 

 

Which leaders did you have in mind specifically? When you talk of wicked leaders, was there anyone you were thinking of? What about that chap who beat Bro. Romney?

 

One parting thought from a member of the first presidency:
 

http://rsc.byu.edu/a...-cultural-world

 

The constitution of America is a man-made political construct. Therefore it is not "transcendent truth."

 

Since I believe the Doctrine and Covenants to be the word of God, I take the Lord seriously when he declared therein:

 

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles;

78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

79 Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another.

80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

 

I cannot help it if someone doesn't believe the Constitution of the United States was inspired by God, but considers it to be merely "a man-made political construct." One might argue the Constitution is a man-made political construct -- and therefore uninspired by the most high God -- till they're blue in the face -- but I believe it is inspired of God and rejoice in that blessed knowledge.  

Teddy,

You  might want to have a  look at the recent article by Mark Ashurst-McGee, “Zion in America: The Origins of Mormon Constitutionalism,” Journal of Mormon History, 38/3 (Summer 2012),  90-101.

Bob

[Robert F. Smith]

The righteousness of this nation's people has ebbed and flowed over the years, just as did the righteousness of the Nephites. But I'd say the United States was more righteous than it is today when out of wedlock births were still considered scandalous and before out of wedlock births reached 41% over all; the US was more righteous when abortions were considered and abomination and before 55,000,000 abortions have been performed since 1973; more righteous when teens rarely had premarital sex and before premarital teen sex became the norm; more righteous when most people stayed married through thick and thin and before divorce reached the 50% mark; more righteous when pornography was "underground" and mostly out of sight before it became an omnipresent plague; more righteous when wholesome movies, TV and other forms of popular entertainment were the norm and before the popular culture became a cesspool of immorality, profanity and twisted values; more righteous when the popular will would not have allowed a President of the United States to remain in office after turning the sacred precincts of the Oval Office into a den of iniquity and before a President was allowed to remain in office for doing the same. And I could go on and on... 

 

Be sure to remember, though, the periods when the US was more righteous means just that, it was more righteous, not devoid of some percentage of wickedness and immorality. As I said before, the benchmark the Lord uses, according to scripture, when judging the righteousness or unrighteousness of a nation, appears to be a participation rate in unrighteous behavior of about 51% and over. This principle is verified in the Book of Mosiah when King Mosiah solemnly declared:

 

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29)

 

Words could not be plainer. For an active member of the Church to read the above and then try to find wiggle room, gray areas, and exceptions to the general rule of the above divine principle, as set forth by Mosiah, is nothing less to my mind than trying to negate -- for reasons beyond the scope of my understanding-- the declared mind and will of the Lord. 

You appear to have become the interpreter for us of "the declared mind and will of the Lord."

 

Still, does that mean that the USA was a righteous nation at some time in our past?  Perhaps while engaged in the furiously destructive Civil War, or while engaged in rampant persecution of the Mormons (and ignoring Joseph's in-person plea for redress to the President of the U.S.), the political assassination of the Prophet Joseph while he was a Presidential candidate arguing for the freedom of the slaves, Johnston's Army headed for the Great Basin to quash the Mormons (the largest U.S. Army ever raised to that date), the Congress and Courts disestablishing the LDS Church based on deliberate lies  -- in order to stop polygyny and the United Order (theocratic socialism).  Perhaps you are thinking of America when it sent the U.S. Cavalry out to murder entire villages and tribes of Amerindians, or when America deliberately violated formal treaties with Amerinds, or when loyal Japanese living in California were interned in concentration camps (many of them were full citizens).  Where in all that unrighteousness (and more) do you see a saving remnant of righteous people?  And does a saving remnant a righteous nation make?  Is it more or less than 51%, as you suggest?  Or are you fudging the data, as you do when it comes to Mexican democracy and history?

[teddyaware]

You appear to have become the interpreter for us of "the declared mind and will of the Lord."

 

Still, does that mean that the USA was a righteous nation at some time in our past?  Perhaps while engaged in the furiously destructive Civil War, or while engaged in rampant persecution of the Mormons (and ignoring Joseph's in-person plea for redress to the President of the U.S.), the political assassination of the Prophet Joseph while he was a Presidential candidate arguing for the freedom of the slaves, Johnston's Army headed for the Great Basin to quash the Mormons (the largest U.S. Army ever raised to that date), the Congress and Courts disestablishing the LDS Church based on deliberate lies  -- in order to stop polygyny and the United Order (theocratic socialism).  Perhaps you are thinking of America when it sent the U.S. Cavalry out to murder entire villages and tribes of Amerindians, or when America deliberately violated formal treaties with Amerinds, or when loyal Japanese living in California were interned in concentration camps (many of them were full citizens).  Where in all that unrighteousness (and more) do you see a saving remnant of righteous people?  And does a saving remnant a righteous nation make?  Is it more or less than 51%, as you suggest?  Or are you fudging the data, as you do when it comes to Mexican democracy and history?

 

When in the world did I fudge the data when it comes to Mexican democracy?!? You seem to have a penchant for imagining there are things lurking between the lines of my writing that aren't really there. Anyway, my previous post stands as it is, my primary focus being on the morals of the public at large. If you can't see the obvious fact that the people of the United States are steadily becoming more and more wicked then I can't help you and there's nothing left for me to say. 

 

And as you seem to have a habit of reading things between the lines of my writing that aren't really there, you also seem to miss many of the things I actually do write. So to make myself clear, I here repost an important point I made in my previous post: 

 

"Be sure to remember, though, the periods when the US was more righteous means just that, it was more righteous, not devoid of some (significant) percentage of wickedness and immorality."

 

And now I have a couple questions for you: Do you believe it's possible for nations to go through a process of ripening in iniquity? And if you do believe nations can ripen in iniquity, what are the main contrasting  differences that exist which characterize the nations that have ripened in iniquity as opposed to those that have not?

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[omni]

The righteousness of this nation's people has ebbed and flowed over the years, just as did the righteousness of the Nephites. But I'd say the United States was more righteous than it is today when out of wedlock births were still considered scandalous and before out of wedlock births reached 41% over all; the US was more righteous when abortions were considered and abomination and before 55,000,000 abortions have been performed since 1973; more righteous when teens rarely had premarital sex and before premarital teen sex became the norm; more righteous when most people stayed married through thick and thin and before divorce reached the 50% mark; more righteous when pornography was "underground" and mostly out of sight before it became an omnipresent plague; more righteous when wholesome movies, TV and other forms of popular entertainment were the norm and before the popular culture became a cesspool of immorality, profanity and twisted values; more righteous when the popular will would not have allowed a President of the United States to remain in office after turning the sacred precincts of the Oval Office into a den of iniquity and before a President was allowed to remain in office for doing the same. And I could go on and on... 

 

Be sure to remember, though, the periods when the US was more righteous means just that, it was more righteous, not devoid of some percentage of wickedness and immorality. As I said before, the benchmark the Lord uses, according to scripture, when judging the righteousness or unrighteousness of a nation, appears to be a participation rate in unrighteous behavior of about 51% and over. This principle is verified in the Book of Mosiah when King Mosiah solemnly declared:

 

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. (Mosiah 29)

 

Words could not be plainer. For an active member of the Church to read the above and then try to find wiggle room, gray areas, and exceptions to the general rule of the above divine principle, as set forth by Mosiah, is nothing less to my mind than trying to negate -- for reasons beyond the scope of my understanding-- the declared mind and will of the Lord. 

 

I noticed all of your examples had to do with sexual immorality and while I agree with you the sexual revolution has caused this country problems, particularly those you mentioned of increasing abortions and out-of-wedlock birthrates.  This being said, I believe you could easily argue the country was even more wicked prior to the 20th century when it was much more puritanical.  A period rife with slavery, mistreatment of Native Americans, and where you were legally able to exterminate a religious people you disagreed with.  A period where it was perfectly acceptable for women not to vote or take an active role in public society, where small children were encouraged to work long hours and in dangerous conditions, and where a titan's bottom line was more important than his worker's lives.  I don't know about you, but I'll take 20th century wickedness over 19th century wickedness any day.

[teddyaware]

I noticed all of your examples had to do with sexual immorality and while I agree with you the sexual revolution has caused this country problems, particularly those you mentioned of increasing abortions and out-of-wedlock birthrates.  This being said, I believe you could easily argue the country was even more wicked prior to the 20th century when it was much more puritanical.  A period rife with slavery, mistreatment of Native Americans, and where you were legally able to exterminate a religious people you disagreed with.  A period where it was perfectly acceptable for women not to vote or take an active role in public society, where small children were encouraged to work long hours and in dangerous conditions, and where a titan's bottom line was more important than his worker's lives.  I don't know about you, but I'll take 20th century wickedness over 19th century wickedness any day.

 

I'll say it again: My focus on this matter is on the righteousness and morality of the public at large, most especially comparing the state of family life in the past to the state of the family in 2013.  My focus is not on the powerbrokers, money men and oppressors who all too often make life miserable for the common man.

 

Being perfectly transparent, when writing posts on this thread, within my own private thoughts what I'm mostly focusing on is the moral decline the US has experienced since the 1940's and 1950's. I was born in 1949, so the subject of family life in 1950's America is something I know about through intimate firsthand experience. I was there and remember the cold, dark and foreboding feeling I had when I and my classmates were told we would no longer be reciting the Lord's Prayer and the 23rd Psalm at the beginning of the school day; I was there when the Roe vs. Wade ruling came down and I experienced such deep personal shock and incredulity at the realization the central government was now saying it was legal and OK for mothers to kill their own offspring; and I was there to witness so many other forms of wickedness as they became acceptable and normalized.

 

Hope you'll not be offended when I say I find your statement, "I'll take 20th century wickedness over 19th century wickedness any day," to be rather poorly thought out. But it isn't very surprising seeing such a thought expressed in light of the fact that the scriptures teach us the people who live in societies that are ripening in iniquity are often unable to discern the gravity of the situation in which they find themselves. Also note that one of the interesting things about nations ripening in iniquity is that most of the people usually believe the prophets who publicly decry the compounding wickedness are delusional alarmists and gross exaggerators of reality. It's even common for most of the people in such nations to be so oblivious to the extent their society has descended into moral depravity that they even go so far as saying the people are righteous and most everything's just fine. Here's an example of this strange dynamic from Laman and Lemuel while in classic "murmuring mode." As they excoriated Nephi for "not being able to build a ship, they said: 

 

And thou art like unto our father, led away by the foolish imaginations of his heart; yea, he hath led us out of the land of Jerusalem, and we have wandered in the wilderness for these many years; and our women have toiled, being big with child; and they have borne children in the wilderness and suffered all things, save it were death; and it would have been better that they had died before they came out of Jerusalem than to have suffered these afflictions.

21 Behold, these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance; yea, and we might have been happy.

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us. (1 Nephi 22)

 

Like so many of those who inhabit lands ripening in iniquity, Laman and Lemuel boldly testified of the "righteousness" of the people of Jerusalem, and this just before the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the Holy Land were slain or taken away captive into Babylon as a consequence of such widespread gross wickedness. 

Edited November 18, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

How were the people of the 19th century not also as morally in decline as the current state given the widespread public support of the oppression of the Amerinds and the treatment of Mormons even if the majority didn't commit those immoral acts themselves?

Outwardly they might have been more in line with what we believe is moral behaviour, but if a husband or wife only refrained from selfish divorce or having an affair because of fear of social condemnation, were they really anymore moral than those who go through with it now that the social limits are lifted?

I am not sure how we can judge true morality from outward behaviour that is highly impacted by social norms.

Edited November 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

How were the people of the 19th century not also as morally in decline as the current state given the widespread public support of the oppression of the Amerinds and the treatment of Mormons even if the majority didn't commit those immoral acts themselves?

Outwardly they might have been more in line with what we believe is moral behaviour, but if a husband or wife only refrained from selfish divorce or having an affair because of fear of social condemnation, were they really anymore moral than those who go through with it now that the social limits are lifted?

I am not sure how we can judge true morality from outward behaviour that is highly impacted by social norms.

 

About 40 years ago, some "old timers" I was chatting with told me that in the "old days" people disposed to commit adultery and fornication still did so, they were just much more careful and discreet when going about it. Also, in light of the above, one might ask how many Mormons there are who appear to be moral because they're afraid of God and afraid of the condemnation of members of the Church? So, in line with your trajectory of thought, is there anybody truly righteous as long as there is a punishment affixed as consequence of sin? Also, how might the following two verses of scripture fit into an "outwardly righteous only because of social pressure" framework?

 

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. (Alma 42)

 

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement— (2 Nephi 2)

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

Not arguing with you, but this didn't answer my question about being able to judge the morality of a nation based on outward behaviour.

[teddyaware]

Not arguing with you, but this didn't answer my question about being able to judge the morality of a nation based on outward behaviour.

 

I would say good outward behavior, when all things are considered, is better than bad outward behavior. While the obvious goal is to get beyond an outward show of righteousness motivated solely by fear, and then on to a state of righteousness motivated by a love of God, a love of mankind, and a love of the enjoyment of having the Holy Ghost as one's constant companion -- nevertheless, like the law of Moses, an outward observance of righteousness may serve as a school master to eventually bring one unto Christ.

 

We have to start somewhere, and I would venture to say, more often than not, it's better to keep a family intact, even if it is only out of fear at first, than it is to destroy the trust of one's spouse and to lose the respect of one's children. When that happens, it's exceedingly difficult win back that lost trust and respect. One of the reasons why we are taught the basic principles of Gospel over and over again is because it is done in the hope that each of us will sooner or later catch the vision of living the Gospel by the power of the Spirit and by love, rather than living its laws outwardly out of fear.   

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware