Adam Born Or Created

[JLHPROF]

So is there official doctrine on this topic? 

 

Not accepted by everyone - as you can see from this thread we have those who like Brigham's theories, those who like the current scientific theories, those who try to blend the two, those who treat the scripture as allegory and those who treat it more literally and other ideas as well.  So, no, nothing official.

Edited October 16, 2013 by JLHPROF

[danielwoods]

The Church recognizes the Bible as doctrine.

 

The Bible states plainly how Adam was created. 

 

No, not in my personal opinion.  The whole subject is in flux.  The Bible is a Standard Work, but unlike the other Standard Works its contents are not considered to always accurately reflect doctrine.  I suspect there are a large number of Mormons on both sides of this question, and it is not one that Correlation would be willing to allow the General Authorities to speak out upon as it is way beyond "milk" and we do not want to violate the most important policy of Correlation namely "milk before meat" and the PA department's aversion to having GAs speak on such subjects under the rubric that most people are swine, therefore you don't cast pearls before the people.

 

 

So, there is no official doctrine on the subject, in your opinion. 

[danielwoods]

Not accepted by everyone - as you can see from this thread we have those who like Brigham's theories, those who like the current scientific theories, those who try to blend the two, those who treat the scripture as allegory and those who treat it more literally and other ideas as well.  So, no, nothing official.

 

 

Ok, thank you. I do find that fascinating. 

[thesometimesaint]

No, not in my personal opinion.  The whole subject is in flux.  The Bible is a Standard Work, but unlike the other Standard Works its contents are not considered to always accurately reflect doctrine.  I suspect there are a large number of Mormons on both sides of this question, and it is not one that Correlation would be willing to allow the General Authorities to speak out upon as it is way beyond "milk" and we do not want to violate the most important policy of Correlation namely "milk before meat" and the PA department's aversion to having GAs speak on such subjects under the rubric that most people are swine, therefore you don't cast pearls before the people.

 

Actually the Book of Mormon itself says there are errors.

 

If the personal ruminations JS, BY, JFS, ETB, and BRM are to be doctrine Lord help his Church.

[thesometimesaint]

 

The Bible states plainly how Adam was created. 

 

 

 

So, there is no official doctrine on the subject, in your opinion. 

 

That is what the Saints believe. What we disagree on is how he was created.

 

See http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Evolution

[JLHPROF]

 I suspect there are a large number of Mormons on both sides of this question, and it is not one that Correlation would be willing to allow the General Authorities to speak out upon as it is way beyond "milk" and we do not want to violate the most important policy of Correlation namely "milk before meat".

 

And this is a church policy that I will glady say I completely disagree with.  Joseph Smith said that:

 

I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private. - TPJS 370

 

Any teacher will tell you that you never teach to the slowest student in the class, it keeps the entire class from progressing.

Milk before meat may be a true gospel principle, but refusing to move beyond milk because there are new members or prying eyes around just holds back everyone else.

[Stone holm]

And this is a church policy that I will glady say I completely disagree with.  Joseph Smith said that:

 

Any teacher will tell you that you never teach to the slowest student in the class, it keeps the entire class from progressing.

Milk before meat may be a true gospel principle, but refusing to move beyond milk because there are new members or prying eyes around just holds back everyone else.

Agree, now put that in a letter and send it up the channels...good luck. People have been complaining to no effect for years

[thesometimesaint]

And this is a church policy that I will glady say I completely disagree with.  Joseph Smith said that:

 

Any teacher will tell you that you never teach to the slowest student in the class, it keeps the entire class from progressing.

Milk before meat may be a true gospel principle, but refusing to move beyond milk because there are new members or prying eyes around just holds back everyone else.

 

And any teacher will also never teach just to the fastest student in the class. You loose the rest of the class.

What a good teacher does is encourage the slowest to learn the basic materials, and the fastest to take the responsibility of learning into their own hands and study outside of the classroom.

[Calm]

So is there official doctrine on this topic? 

On Adam's creation or who specifically his parents (of his physical body) were?

 

There is this, though it refers to their spiritual creation:

 

Adam and Eve were among our Father’s noblest children. In the spirit world Adam was called Michael the archangel (see D&C 27:11;Jude 1:9). He was chosen by our Heavenly Father to lead the righteous in the battle against Satan (see Revelation 12:7–9). Adam and Eve were foreordained to become our first parents. The Lord promised Adam great blessings: “I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever” (D&C 107:55).

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Edited October 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

That is what the Saints believe. What we disagree on is how he was created.

 

See http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Evolution

 

Thank you.

[danielwoods]

On Adam's creation or who specifically his parents (of his physical body) were?

 

There is this, though it refers to their spiritual creation:

 

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-6-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

 

My question was referring to his question in the op, which I think was directed toward the physical creation. And it appears there isn't an official doctrine on that. 

[CV75]

Any teacher will tell you that you never teach to the slowest student in the class, it keeps the entire class from progressing.

Milk before meat may be a true gospel principle, but refusing to move beyond milk because there are new members or prying eyes around just holds back everyone else.

"Strongest" doctrine is not necessarily the same as meat: "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 121). The foundation must be strong. From there, the Holy Ghost teaches use moree and more until we comprehend even God.

 

Jospeh Smith also said, "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right." (Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah). This correlates with instructions in D&C 88.

 

It (including Correlation) ain't all about teaching in class, and in this case, teaching in class is to get people to learn to learn by the Spirit.

 

Agree, now put that in a letter and send it up the channels...good luck. People have been complaining to no effect for years

That's not how it's done--participating in councils in the way outlined in D&C 50 and 88 is how it's done.

[JAHS]

Here's a few interesting quotes. First from Brigham Young:

"Here let me state to all philosopahers of every class upon the earth. when you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth. You tell me what I deem an idle tale when you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner. You are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities. Where the gods dwell mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth." (Journal of Discourses 7:285-286)

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:

"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)
 

Not sure how to take these, but they sort of contradict a literal dust of the earth interpretation of the creation of Adam and Eve.

[CV75]

Was Adam the physical offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, or was he created from the dust of this Earth?

P.S. I don't care! LOL

[Calm]

Also from same link (wouldn't let me add it to the post for some reason):

 

 

 

God prepared this earth as a home for His children. Adam and Eve were chosen to be the first people to live on the earth (see Moses 1:34; 4:26). Their part in our Father’s plan was to bring mortality into the world. They were to be the first parents. (See D&C 107:54–56.)

 

 

 

 

You might find this interesting though not particularly related to your question, but relevant to how LDS view Adam and Eve:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Adam

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Eve

[Stone holm]

And any teacher will also never teach just to the fastest student in the class. You loose the rest of the class.

What a good teacher does is encourage the slowest to learn the basic materials, and the fastest to take the responsibility of learning into their own hands and study outside of the classroom.

If you wake the fastest up from time to time.

[CV75]

Not sure how to take these, but they sort of contradict a literal dust of the earth interpretation of the creation of Adam and Eve.

(Which earth is not specified...)

 

But I've also read where, whoever Adam and Eve's parents were (on another terrestial world), they ate of the fruit of this planet Earth.

[Calm]

And it appears there isn't an official doctrine on that. 

As in "how" none save that he was created by God(s) in His own image.

 

Latter-day scriptures attest that Adam is a son of God, that his physical body was created by the Gods in their own image and placed in the Garden of Eden (Moses 6:9, 22; Abr. 5:7-11; TPJS, p. 345-53; cf. 2 Ne. 2:14-19). In this physical-spiritual state in Eden, Adam was called the "first man" (Moses 1:34)

 

God foreordained her and named her Eve, "the Mother of All Living"; in the Garden of Eden Adam called her Eve, reflecting that calling (Moses 4:26). She was created spiritually and physically in the same manner as was Adam (MD, p. 242). God called their name Adam, and "in the image of his own body, male and female, created he them" (Moses 6:9).

 

[Stone holm]

Here's a few interesting quotes. First from Brigham Young:

"Here let me state to all philosopahers of every class upon the earth. when you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth. You tell me what I deem an idle tale when you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner. You are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities. Where the gods dwell mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth." (Journal of Discourses 7:285-286)

Joseph Smith is quoted as saying:

"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)

 

Not sure how to take these, but they sort of contradict a literal dust of the earth interpretation of the creation of Adam and Eve.

Deep waters were what they were wont to swim in, now get back in the wading pool...someone might be listening.

[thesometimesaint]

If you wake the fastest up from time to time.

 

I was neither the fastest nor the slowest of students. But I did find myself(and others) sometimes dozing off in class. Now as a High Priest it is kinda expected of me.

[JLHPROF]

Jospeh Smith also said, "Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord, and it will lead them right. Be careful and not turn away the small still voice; it will teach you how to do and where to go; it will yield the fruits of the kingdom. Tell the brethren to keep their hearts open to conviction, so that when the Holy Ghost comes to them, their hearts will be ready to receive it. They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife, and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right." (Brigham Young, vision, Feb. 17, 1847, in Brigham Young Office Files, 1832–1878, Archives of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah).

 

Ironically, this vision was given in response to Brigham asking about the Law of Adoption...a strong meat doctrine, ended by Wilford Woodruff, and known about and understood by very few members.

Learning by the spirit is important but the Church also has accountability to teach all the things of the Kingdom to its members.  The command to focus on the first principles was given to missionaries, but when converts "gather" they are supposed to be taught deeper doctrines.  And it I believe that hearing the same primary level lesson repeated over and over for decades does not aid learning by the spirit.  We are accountable for our own learning, but we should also be taught.

[ERayR]

Except that contradicts what the Scriptures say.

 

Omly the way you are understanding it.  The Bible also contradicts macro-evolution yet you believe that.

[thesometimesaint]

Omly the way you are understanding it.  The Bible also contradicts macro-evolution yet you believe that.

 

All any of us have is how we understand it.

 

Genesis 1:20

²⁰ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

²¹ And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

²² And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

 

That being said the LDS are not Biblical literalists. While I believe that anyone whom uses the Bible as a science book is doomed to build on sand ideas. When used as why God did it is on the rock of good and true ideas.

[CV75]

Ironically, this vision was given in response to Brigham asking about the Law of Adoption...a strong meat doctrine, ended by Wilford Woodruff, and known about and understood by very few members.

Learning by the spirit is important but the Church also has accountability to teach all the things of the Kingdom to its members.  The command to focus on the first principles was given to missionaries, but when converts "gather" they are supposed to be taught deeper doctrines.  And it I believe that hearing the same primary level lesson repeated over and over for decades does not aid learning by the spirit.  We are accountable for our own learning, but we should also be taught.

And yet the answer was not for one professor to articulate meat for eager students but teach them to learn by the Spirit, to teach and to learn by the Spirit himslef, and for the students to learn by the Spirit. D&C 50 and D&C 88 lay out how learning by the Spirit is to be accomplished (the Lord's way) in groups.

 

The weekly classroom setting may not always be the right place for this (although it can be, depending on one's spiritual gifts, attitude, etc.), but I have experienced it a number of times when general authorities visit and instruct or especially facilitate discussion, when they speak in conference, etc. There are other settings where people have clearly qualified to particpate in such learning and discussion, and I have been privileged to paricpate in those as well.

 

Plus, anyone that is truly capable of being taught spiritual meat doesn't have to go without an instructor ("when the student is ready...-- I see D&C 88: 46 - 63+ touching on this principle as well.)."

[MDalby]

Moses 6 is listing the physical genealogy of the patriarchs and says:

 

22 And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

(Moses 6:22)