Change To The Gospel - Poll

[pogi]

Going along with the topic of this thread, I have some general questions (I would start a new thread but I can't yet). I don't really understand the LDS mindset concerning determining doctrine. I know there is focus on the living prophets interpreting things and providing guidance, yet there is focus on studying the Bible, BoM, etc. What I don't understand is how the two intersect, and where past prophets' teachings fit in. If you have a question of doctrine, what's the most authoritative source? If living prophets' teachings are more relevant than dead prophets, why refer to the Bible or BoM at all when they're much further removed in time? If prophets can say/teach things that aren't authoritative per se but just speculation that may be wrong, then maybe the current prophet may be engaging in wrong speculation in a particular instance but a previous prophet was more accurate. How do you determine what's accurate teaching and what isn't?

I am honestly trying to understand here. What my questions boil down to is, "If I were LDS, how would I know what to believe?" I have asked this of Mormons before but I haven't ever really grokked the answer. And maybe it depends on individuals' perspectives, I don't know.

 

Our 9th article of faith states, "We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God."  The revelations through a modern day prophet will always be in-line with what has already been revealed.  We do view the living prophets as more relevant in that they are the shepherds and voice of God for our times.  Consider the Israelite's in the time of Moses for example - who would have been more relevant for them at that time, Abraham or Moses?  They are equally authoritative, and equally important, but the living prophet is always more relevant to the living saints.  The Israelite's would not have rested the words of Abraham because they have a Moses, neither do we rest the words of Moses because we have a Monson.  

 

We are taught that the way to determine what is accurate teaching and what isn't, is through the spirit of personal revelation by meditation, fasting, and prayer.  Through the spirit we can "know the truth of all things."  These are the words of an ancient prophet that will forever guide our relationship with our modern prophets.

Edited November 22, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

I think everyone wants to seek out the truth. Nobody really wants to believe in something that is not true. The LDS say that the Mormon church is the True church. You believe in the LDS faith because you believe it to be true, but what if it is not true? What if the things that you have been taught are lies? Wouldn't you like to be brought out of darkness and into the light?

 

Hello, and welcome to the boards!  First, I think it is important for you to learn the rules of the boards.  I am almost certain that proselytizing is not allowed on these boards. I feel the sincerity in your post and honest concern for us Mormons, but if there is one thing that I learned about proselytizing on my mission, it is that you do not approach a person with the intent to tear down their beliefs, but rather to build on the beliefs that they already have.  You will not find any friends here with that approach.  It is human nature to become defensive when they feel like their belief system which brings them such immense joy and light is being attacked.   I know that you want a respectful dialogue, but a respectful dialogue must begin with a respectful topic to discuss.  For example, you said:

 

 

I would love to discuss the problems in the LDS faith with whoever is willing discuss with me.

 

When your "love to discuss" is centered on sharing the gospel rather than tearing down other peoples faith and beliefs, then you might find some success.  If you want to shed light on us, by all means shed light on us, but you are not going to make any converts by discussing the "problems" with our faith.  Tell us why your faith is right.  Tell us why and how you "know" that your path is the right one.  We Mormons know a thing or two about proselytizing, you would be wise to take some pointers from us.  

Edited November 22, 2013 by pogi

[Stone holm]

Hello LDS friends, 

I will start off by saying that I am not a member of the LDS church. I am a Bible believing born-again Christian. I grew up in a town with a large population of Mormons and Christians. Many of my friends growing up were Mormon. To this day I am still friends with many of them. I grew up in a strong Christian household, went to church every Sunday, Bible studies on Sundays and Wednesdays, I went to a Christian high school, and I have family members who are Pastors. When I was 8 years old, the Holy Spirit came into my life and changed me. I was no longer sentenced to a life in hell apart from God, but now because Christ has forgiven my sins and spoken on my behalf, I am able to live with my Father in heaven. I knew at age 8 my sins separated me from a life with God and the ONLY way I can be with Him is if I am Holy and blameless in His sight. Because I am a sinner, I am far from being Holy and blameless no matter all the wonderful things I do. No matter the sin or the amount of times I have sinned, I am destined to hell. However, it is only by the grace of Jesus Christ my Savior and Lord that my sins have been wiped clean so that I might have everlasting life with my Father in heaven. When I was filled with the Holy Spirit and knew that I am no longer sentenced to death but that I now have life and it was not of my doing but of Christ's doing, it was a message I wanted to share to all that I knew. Like I mentioned, I had many LDS friends growing up. So of course, they were one of the first people that I wanted to tell of this great message. Being 8 years old, I knew just basic things about the LDS faith from what my friends and family have told me. My friends would state that they were "Christians" because they believed in Christ, however I knew they did not believe the same things that I believed. I was so confused that my Mormon friends were calling themselves Christians that I went to ask my parents if they were and why they said that they were. My parents who are very knowledgeable in the Bible as well as many faiths explained to me the differences and why we Christians do not believe Mormons are Christians. This broke my heart because I have friends who are telling me that they know Christ and they are going to heaven when in fact, the Bible does not teach that. As I have gotten older, I have devoted a lot of my time into reading about the LDS faith so that I might be able to approach my dear LDS friends and guide them to know the real Christ so that they may be saved. I have a huge heart for the LDS people. I think they are some of the nicest people out there, which makes me more saddened by the fact that those of the Mormon faith are deceived. So here I am asking all of you who read this, to have a respectful open discussion with me regarding your faith. I saw the poll answers and it just goes to show that some of you place so much trust into your leaders that you ignore your own writings. I think everyone wants to seek out the truth. Nobody really wants to believe in something that is not true. The LDS say that the Mormon church is the True church. You believe in the LDS faith because you believe it to be true, but what if it is not true? What if the things that you have been taught are lies? Wouldn't you like to be brought out of darkness and into the light? I would love to discuss the problems in the LDS faith with whoever is willing discuss with me. This would be a time for you to present to me why you believe and KNOW that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true church and that it is not a lie, Joseph Smith was a real prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, etc...

 

 

 

 

 

Luke 11:11

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

  12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

  13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give ^athe Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Sounds like you have been reading about the Church, rather than reading what we believe, in other words reading the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. It always helps to read and pray about the actual sacred writings of the religion before testifying against it.

[ccook617]

We could start off with the fact that the LDS Church has the only Christian doctrine that is entirely Biblical consistent. Or perhaps the fact that in doctrine we look more like the NT Church than any other church.  Early Christian history shows numerous LDS-like doctrines including the nature of the Godhead. That the early Christian church UNIVERSALLY Apostatized is evidenced by the wholesale change in doctrine.

 

The original Christian Church would have considered doctrines like the trinity, OSAS, and sola fide to be heresy.  Their view of the afterlife, the teaching the Gospel to departed spirits, the degrees of salvation looks almost exactly LDS.  Like the Bible, they even predicted their impending apostasy.  Etc. Etc.

Hey BCSpace! Thanks for the response. I would argue that the LDS doctrine is NOT consistent with the Bible nor is it consistent with it's own previous doctrines. Verses in the BoM contradict the LDS view of the Godhead constantly. 3 Nephi 24:6, Moroni 8:18, Mormon 9:9. These are all principles that are based off of the Christian view of God. These are Biblical teachings.  Yet Mormons now teach that God was once a man.... wouldn't these verses contradict that. So yes, Christians would agree with what is in the book of Mormon considering these verse, however that is not your doctrine. God was once a man according to mormonism. Concerning the Christian Church doctrines that you mentioned,  the Bible teaches these things. YES the word trinity was never used, I understand that, but the fact is, there are several verses that point to the trinity and show that they are 3 in 1. This doctrine did  not just come out of now where. Just like the idea of monotheism is not a word in the Bible, it is a principle taught...now I know mormons do not believe this. With this being said, how do you explain Isaiah 43:10 or Isaiah 44: 6,8? Also, what do you mean by degrees of salvation is almost exactly like the LDS? The way to salvation shown in the Bible is not at all what is taught in mormonism. 

[ccook617]

Interesting. Sounds like you have been reading about the Church, rather than reading what we believe, in other words reading the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. It always helps to read and pray about the actual sacred writings of the religion before testifying against it.

 

Hello Stone Holm, 

I do not believe I mentioned anything about reading about the Church and not reading about what you believe....Yes I have read about your church, the history of Joseph Smith, etc... BUT I have also read The Book of Mormon , Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine of Covenants. I own a copy of the BoM. In fact, I have notes written all through it. I took a 30 day study on the BoM. I know exactly what is in there. I do not see how asking God to reveal to me through a warm feeling in my chest ( burning in the bosom) if the Book of Mormon is true to be Biblical nor necessary. True is truth. It is not relative. There is only absolute truth. When I find blatant errors in the BoM or any religion at that, I know it to not be true. If the Book of Mormon is a direct revelation from God, then it should be without error. Joseph Smith himself has stated “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” If it was the most correct book of any book on earth, then why the errors? The Bible has been proven to be the most preserved ancient historical text. Not even secular archeologist can deny this. My brother has his masters in Biblical archeology. He is around several archeologist who are believes and who are not believers, but none can deny that there is no more preserved ancient history text than the Bible. This being said, I have yet to see anything that would cause me to say the Bible was not true and filled with errors. Many have tried to prove the Bible wrong, but have failed. Because of the truths in the Bible, I know that what it says is true and I take it all to be true. We do not know the Bible to be true through a warm feeling in our heart. When we do read the Bible, we do feel those feelings . Feeling of peace and love because of the message it shares. We feel the peace and love because we know it to be true. Not vise versa. Me knowing the Bible to be true is not based on my testimony of a changed life. While that is a part of it, it certainly is not what I hold my faith on. I am human and a sinner. The Bible never said I will be perfect after having the Holy Spirit come into my life. Truth can be found through it's consistencies over 2000 years of writing by 40 different authors. The fact that it is authentic and has not changed. There are evidences of real places, names, people events other than biblical texts. We have evidence of all that. Having a Biblical archeologist as a brother, I have seen countless number of evidence that points directly to events stated in the Bible. Cities thought to be made up have been proven to be true through archeological findings. This shows that evidence that has been found is consistent with the Bible. We know the Bible to be true through fulfilled prophesies and divine insight. Not to mention that the prophesies are extreme and detailed. The chances of the prophesies being fulfilled are outrageous. Examples: Micah 5:2-chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was 1 in 280,000. ( Matt 2:4-6) ...Should I mention that the BoM states the Jesus was born in Jerusalem? Alma 7:10.  Now I could go through all the prophesies and show the chances of them being fulfilled and the chance of Christ fulfilling them, but I will short cut this and say that the chances of Christ fulfilling just 8 of the 300 prophesies 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. The Christian worldview works with the laws of logic. It is not contradicting.  These are just examples used without bringing in human nature, ethics, standards in the Bible, and the fact that knowledge of Him has transcending into all human beings. For these reasons I know the Bible to be true, so when things that the BoM says contradicts the Bible, I know it to not be true simply just because of this. Now, that would not make a good enough defense for most people when showing them the gospel, so those things that do go against the Bible, I do investigate further only to confirm that they can also be proven false.  

[mfbukowski]

Hello LDS friends, 

I will start off by saying that I am not a member of the LDS church. I am a Bible believing born-again Christian. I grew up in a town with a large population of Mormons and Christians. Many of my friends growing up were Mormon. To this day I am still friends with many of them. I grew up in a strong Christian household, went to church every Sunday, Bible studies on Sundays and Wednesdays, I went to a Christian high school, and I have family members who are Pastors. When I was 8 years old, the Holy Spirit came into my life and changed me. I was no longer sentenced to a life in hell apart from God, but now because Christ has forgiven my sins and spoken on my behalf, I am able to live with my Father in heaven. I knew at age 8 my sins separated me from a life with God and the ONLY way I can be with Him is if I am Holy and blameless in His sight. Because I am a sinner, I am far from being Holy and blameless no matter all the wonderful things I do. No matter the sin or the amount of times I have sinned, I am destined to hell. However, it is only by the grace of Jesus Christ my Savior and Lord that my sins have been wiped clean so that I might have everlasting life with my Father in heaven. When I was filled with the Holy Spirit and knew that I am no longer sentenced to death but that I now have life and it was not of my doing but of Christ's doing, it was a message I wanted to share to all that I knew. Like I mentioned, I had many LDS friends growing up. So of course, they were one of the first people that I wanted to tell of this great message. Being 8 years old, I knew just basic things about the LDS faith from what my friends and family have told me. My friends would state that they were "Christians" because they believed in Christ, however I knew they did not believe the same things that I believed. I was so confused that my Mormon friends were calling themselves Christians that I went to ask my parents if they were and why they said that they were. My parents who are very knowledgeable in the Bible as well as many faiths explained to me the differences and why we Christians do not believe Mormons are Christians. This broke my heart because I have friends who are telling me that they know Christ and they are going to heaven when in fact, the Bible does not teach that. As I have gotten older, I have devoted a lot of my time into reading about the LDS faith so that I might be able to approach my dear LDS friends and guide them to know the real Christ so that they may be saved. I have a huge heart for the LDS people. I think they are some of the nicest people out there, which makes me more saddened by the fact that those of the Mormon faith are deceived. So here I am asking all of you who read this, to have a respectful open discussion with me regarding your faith. I saw the poll answers and it just goes to show that some of you place so much trust into your leaders that you ignore your own writings. I think everyone wants to seek out the truth. Nobody really wants to believe in something that is not true. The LDS say that the Mormon church is the True church. You believe in the LDS faith because you believe it to be true, but what if it is not true? What if the things that you have been taught are lies? Wouldn't you like to be brought out of darkness and into the light? I would love to discuss the problems in the LDS faith with whoever is willing discuss with me. This would be a time for you to present to me why you believe and KNOW that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true church and that it is not a lie, Joseph Smith was a real prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, etc... 

Interesting but a little confused I think.

 

How do YOU know your church is "true"?   Obviously you must have some criterion for establishing the truth of statements about religion- why do you think the bible is "true" for example?

 

What evidence do you have that what you think you felt at an early age was the Holy Ghost and what we feel is not?

[ccook617]

Hello, and welcome to the boards!  First, I think it is important for you to learn the rules of the boards.  I am almost certain that proselytizing is not allowed on these boards. I feel the sincerity in your post and honest concern for us Mormons, but if there is one thing that I learned about proselytizing on my mission, it is that you do not approach a person with the intent to tear down their beliefs, but rather to build on the beliefs that they already have.  You will not find any friends here with that approach.  It is human nature to become defensive when they feel like their belief system which brings them such immense joy and light is being attacked.   I know that you want a respectful dialogue, but a respectful dialogue must begin with a respectful topic to discuss.  For example, you said:

 

 

 

When your "love to discuss" is centered on sharing the gospel rather than tearing down other peoples faith and beliefs, then you might find some success.  If you want to shed light on us, by all means shed light on us, but you are not going to make any converts by discussing the "problems" with our faith.  Tell us why your faith is right.  Tell us why and how you "know" that your path is the right one.  We Mormons know a thing or two about proselytizing, you would be wise to take some pointers from us.  

Hello pogi, 

I have search for a post on the rules of this discussion forum and have not found any. If one does exist, please send it my way. I would question though why in a discussion forum about religion, discussion with someone who does not believe what you believe and tries to explain why that is so, is not allowed. If I have nothing to hide and I'm open for discussion on my faith on a site filled with people who believe in mormonism, wouldn't this be a time for many of you to try to "convert" me? Many of the men on here have probably served a 2 year mission proselytizing people... Like you said, mormons know a thing or to about it since many of you spend years of training doing so. Here is the big difference though. Mormons believe all paths lead to heaven. Christians believe in one narrow path. You say I should build up a belief that a person has. How can I build up a belief that I know to be false. Your assumption is that I have not been successful in converting people to Christianity because of my tactics. You are greatly mistaken. I have helped guide many to know Christ even those who thought they knew Christ. I will even tell you that I have had 3 friends convert from mormonism to christianity. Two of them also shared of their new faith in Christ with their family and they too are now Christians. Now I have developed friendships with these people and they know my heart and that I cared for them. They knew I was a Christian and we had many talks concerning that over the years. Topics started by me as well as them. On here, I cut to the chase. I did not start off by stating the gospel as I'm sure you all have a decent idea of what I believe. If not, I would love to discuss that with any who wants to hear. This forum was a poll about the changes to the gospel. Many of you disagree with how you feel and were bringing up good points. I felt this was an appropriate post to bring to attention the problems with this. With the change in the doctrines, trust in prophets, changes in texts, etc... I have not yet discussed these things as I stated I will reply to anything people ask me and challenge me on. There can only be one absolute truth. Many arguments that I am present with by mormons is that it is unfair to try to prove what they believe is false and that it is not Christ like because Christ would not tear other religions or tell people they are wrong....BUT Christ does exactly that all throughout the Bible. He calls people out on it all the time. God is not a God of deception. He is a God of truth. 

[ccook617]

Interesting but a little confused I think.

 

How do YOU know your church is "true"?   Obviously you must have some criterion for establishing the truth of statements about religion- why do you think the bible is "true" for example?

 

What evidence do you have that what you think you felt at an early age was the Holy Ghost and what we feel is not?

Please look at my post to stone holm as I explain this. I cannot tell you that the feeling you experience was or was not from the Holy Spirit, or as you say, the Holy Ghost. I will tell you though that "the heart it enough to place your faith on as I explained. Mormons determine their testimony of the Holy Ghost through a burning in the bosom...Why is it that Christians,  Muslims, Jehovah witnesses can express the same feeling when they read the Bible, Jehovah Witness Bible or the Quran? If that feeling is to say that their text is true, then how can that be? What makes the mormon's feeling different than the Muslim's? How are your belief more true than theirs? See the dilemma? I am also told every time I talk mormons that I need to pray to God to ask if the Book of Mormon is true. Side note: First of all, the passage says to ask God if these things are NOT true. I have yet to have a Mormon ask me to pray and ask God to if the Book of Mormon is NOT true. When Mormons come to me asking me these questions I usually ask them have you prayed to God to ask if the Bible is true? Have you prayed to God to know if the Quran is true. Have you prayed to God to know if the Jehovah Witness Bible is true? I always get the answer no. Why is it then that I have to ask if the Book of Mormon is true and Mormons do not have to ask if the others are true? What other "proof" or evidence does the Mormon church have to testify their faith? I would also ask why would multiple religions and beliefs be able to feel that same feeling? Why would God use that to determine truth. That sounds to complicated and deceiving and that is not the God of the Bible. God of the Bible is not deceiving. He wants His people to know the truth not to be easily deceived. My other question would be that when people pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true and they believe through their feeling that it is true, then what about the errors presented in the BoM? Does the feeling mean Mormons that it is ALL true...or mostly true? 

[Calm]

Could you put some spaces in your posts.  Reading it as one block of writing is hard for me (and I assume some others from what they have said in the past).

[canard78]

Could you put some spaces in your posts.  Reading it as one block of writing is hard for me (and I assume some others from what they have said in the past).

 

I was about to make the very same point. I get a couple of lines in and then my head hurts.

 

CCook - I'd be happy to be involved in this conversation, but if you could make your points a little more succinct or put them in different paragraphs it would aid the conversation.

 

(P.S. I don't think anyone replied to you on forum rules:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules)

 

Some edited highlights pertinent to this thread (and I don't think you've broken any, but it's not my call):

 

2. Be respectful of each other. This should be a matter of common sense, but we have a detailed list below of the kind of behavior that won't be tolerated.

• Mocking each others' beliefs
• Judging others
• Personal attacks. You may dispute a member's opinion, but you may not label them for having that opinion.
• Attempting to provoke people
• Refusing to provide appropriate references to support your statements
• Violating standard rules of debate such as extreme comparisons and hyperbole

Topics We Don't Allow

• Personal topics such as "Why I Left the Church" threads. This is not a support group. If you are having a spiritual crisis and need help, contacting your local leaders would be the appropriate action and of course, taking your problem to our Father in Heaven. We do care very much for struggling members, but we don't want to see you made a target for judgment and insults. Don't make yourself the subject.
• Proselyting or "witnessing" from either side. Preaching doesn't create a discussion. It is one sided.

 

• Hope that helps. Feel free to read the guidelines in full for extra info.

[ccook617]

Could you put some spaces in your posts.  Reading it as one block of writing is hard for me (and I assume some others from what they have said in the past).

Of course! I will start doing that. Is there a way to edit posts already sent? If so I will go back and add spacing to make it easier to read. 

 

 

I was about to make the very same point. I get a couple of lines in and then my head hurts.

 

CCook - I'd be happy to be involved in this conversation, but if you could make your points a little more succinct or put them in different paragraphs it would aid the conversation.

 

(P.S. I don't think anyone replied to you on forum rules:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules)

 

Some edited highlights pertinent to this thread (and I don't think you've broken any, but it's not my call):

 

• Hope that helps. Feel free to read the guidelines in full for extra info.

 

Thank you for the link! I appreciate it! Thank you both for the suggestion. I will certainly categorize and add spaces from now on. 

[Calm]

You won't be able to edit your posts until you have 25 or start a thread in this forum.  If you don't want to wait much, you can always go to the Social Hall and post some in the movie thread...or the fastest, post tons of posts in the three word story thread that is pinned there (got to keep that one alive).

[canard78]

I'm open for discussion on my faith on a site filled with people who believe in mormonism, wouldn't this be a time for many of you to try to "convert" me?

 

I think the objective to "convert" anyone is a subset of a desire to share a perspective of God and the eternities that is meaningful to us as members. We are sharing insights through dialogue. Not trying to convert you.

 

Eugene England, a Mormon writer, said (emphsis mine): 

...Enoch is encountering a completely new theodicy, a "justification" of God or explanation of how he can be considered just. It is a theodicy which, if not unique to Mormonism, makes Mormonism unique among large, growing churches. It is also, I believe, a theodicy which can make a crucial contribution to Mormonism's emergence as a mature, compassionate world religion, one able to contribute in important ways to God's efforts to save all his children, not just through conversion but also through sharing our revealed insights into the nature of God by dialogue with others."

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Dialogue_V35N01_75.pdf

 

I recommend the whole article. It might make your toes curl, but it's Mormon theology at its most beautiful.

 

You say I should build up a belief that a person has. How can I build up a belief that I know to be false.

 

You know my belief to be false? How? How do you know the Bible is the word of God? How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus Christ died on the cross? How do you know that Adam fell? How do you know your sins are forgiven? How do you know what will happen after you die? Where does this conviction come from? If you do think you know some of these things, how do you feel able to say I don't know?

 

Your perspectives are based on faith. All of the above are things that cannot be empirically proven. They are good beliefs and I believe them too. But you can't "know" them and say that I don't. If you have the ability to "know" then I do too. If I don't have the ability to "know" then neither do you.

 

Here is the big difference though. Mormons believe all paths lead to heaven. Christians believe in one narrow path... 

 

There can only be one absolute truth. Many arguments that I am present with by mormons is that it is unfair to try to prove what they believe is false and that it is not Christ like because Christ would not tear other religions or tell people they are wrong....BUT Christ does exactly that all throughout the Bible. He calls people out on it all the time. God is not a God of deception. He is a God of truth.

 

May I recommend one of the greatest ever sermons on truth:

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng 

Dieter Uchtdorf would agree with you that there is only one absolute truth:

The adversary has many cunning strategies for keeping mortals from the truth. He offers the belief that truth is relative; appealing to our sense of tolerance and fairness, he keeps the real truth hidden by claiming that one person’s “truth” is as valid as any other. Some he entices to believe that there is an absolute truth out there somewhere but that it is impossible for anyone to know it.

 

 

So while I agree that there is absolute truth... "things as they really are" I don't think that we, in our limited human capacity know all of God's truth. Our brains simply aren't big enough. Instead he teaches us line upon line and precept upon precept. I don't believe in multiple paths. I believe in one path. But the principles taught to each individual in a particular time and place - the line and precept, may be different. I often use the analogy of vehicles. Your faith is a vehicle for travelling the one path to God. Mine is too. The vehicles may have some differences but they both move us forward. Dieter Uchtdorf uses the analogy of the blind men holding an elephant to teach a similar principle. Each describes a different part (the tail, a leg, the trunk) and describes the animal they are holding differently. Read the article to see what I'm talking about.

 

Like Paul, we all "see through a glass darkly." We "know in part." One day we will see in fullness. We will see the absolute truth. But today we only get a bit of it and we work with the bit that we have.

 

As such, I think you do have the truth. But I think I do too. Perhaps I'm holding the leg and you the ear. Eventually we'll see all the elephant but for now, the "dark glass" limits our view. As Paul points out, this doesn't matter... Charity, the way we treat each other, is what really matters. The parable of the goat and sheep (where the king gathers "all nations") teaches a similar principle in Matthew 25.

 

I cannot tell you that the feeling you experience was or was not from the Holy Spirit, or as you say, the Holy Ghost.

 

We use both interchangeably but "Holy Ghost" is a biblical phrase: John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." 

 

This also shows that the Holy Spirit was designed to be our teacher. Why not embrace that gift?

 

Mormons determine their testimony of the Holy Ghost through a burning in the bosom...Why is it that Christians,  Muslims, Jehovah witnesses can express the same feeling when they read the Bible, Jehovah Witness Bible or the Quran? If that feeling is to say that their text is true, then how can that be? What makes the mormon's feeling different than the Muslim's? How are your belief more true than theirs?

 

Why stop there? What about Buddhists, Hindus, 7th day adventists. The list goes on and on and on. Their beliefs are not more or less true than mine or yours. See my previous post about Dieter Uchtdorf's talk on truth and the Elephant analogy.

 

My other question would be that when people pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true and they believe through their feeling that it is true, then what about the errors presented in the BoM? Does the feeling mean Mormons that it is ALL true...or mostly true?

 

Or mostly dead?

 

Do errors in the Bible make it not true? Would a single error on a map make the whole map useless? Nope.

There are indeed errors in the Book of Mormon. The writers acknowledge them. The title page of the Book of Mormon: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men." The opening section of the Doctrine and Covenants (1:34) similarly says:  "...these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language…"

[canard78]

Of course! I will start doing that. Is there a way to edit posts already sent? If so I will go back and add spacing to make it easier to read. 

 

Thank you for the link! I appreciate it! Thank you both for the suggestion. I will certainly categorize and add spaces from now on. 

 

I think you need 25 posts before you can edit older posts. It will appear next to the "multi-quote" button.

 

You can always "rack up" 25 by posting in the "3 word story" on the social forum. I think after about 30 days they remove the ability to edit posts.

[mfbukowski]

Please look at my post to stone holm as I explain this. I cannot tell you that the feeling you experience was or was not from the Holy Spirit, or as you say, the Holy Ghost. I will tell you though that "the heart it enough to place your faith on as I explained. Mormons determine their testimony of the Holy Ghost through a burning in the bosom...Why is it that Christians,  Muslims, Jehovah witnesses can express the same feeling when they read the Bible, Jehovah Witness Bible or the Quran? If that feeling is to say that their text is true, then how can that be? What makes the mormon's feeling different than the Muslim's? How are your belief more true than theirs? See the dilemma? I am also told every time I talk mormons that I need to pray to God to ask if the Book of Mormon is true. Side note: First of all, the passage says to ask God if these things are NOT true. I have yet to have a Mormon ask me to pray and ask God to if the Book of Mormon is NOT true. When Mormons come to me asking me these questions I usually ask them have you prayed to God to ask if the Bible is true? Have you prayed to God to know if the Quran is true. Have you prayed to God to know if the Jehovah Witness Bible is true? I always get the answer no. Why is it then that I have to ask if the Book of Mormon is true and Mormons do not have to ask if the others are true? What other "proof" or evidence does the Mormon church have to testify their faith? I would also ask why would multiple religions and beliefs be able to feel that same feeling? Why would God use that to determine truth. That sounds to complicated and deceiving and that is not the God of the Bible. God of the Bible is not deceiving. He wants His people to know the truth not to be easily deceived. My other question would be that when people pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true and they believe through their feeling that it is true, then what about the errors presented in the BoM? Does the feeling mean Mormons that it is ALL true...or mostly true? 

You are not understanding the question.

 

I asked you why you think your church is true, and you have not answered.

 

You have not mentioned any criteria you have used in determining the alleged truth of your faith, whatever that is.

[canard78]

You are not understanding the question.

 

I asked you why you think your church is true, and you have not answered.

 

You have not mentioned any criteria you have used in determining the alleged truth of your faith, whatever that is.

 

This is something I'm also interested in. I've asked ccook a similar question. I'm genuinely interested to hear the answer. How can someone say they know I am wrong without showing the method by which they came to know they are right.

 

I'm reminded of a TED talk by Brené Brown (16:50):

 

When we feel vulnerable, we make everything that is uncertain, certain. Religion has gone from a belief in faith and mystery, to certainty.  I’m right.  You’re wrong. Shut-up.

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

Edited November 23, 2013 by canard78

[ccook617]

I think the objective to "convert" anyone is a subset of a desire to share a perspective of God and the eternities that is meaningful to us as members. We are sharing insights through dialogue. Not trying to convert you.

 

I'm hoping the layout for this works...Sorry, I do not post on forums often and they always seem to have a different layout. 

Yes, in the Mormon religion, it would be more about sharing a perspective of God and sharing insights. Like I mentioned and will mention later on in this post, according to Mormonism, everyone goes to heaven ( Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial) unless you reject the Mormon faith then you will be sent to outer darkness.   This would mean that even if one does not convert, they will be in heaven, just on a lower level. From a Biblical stance. There is heaven and hell and the path to heaven is very narrow and the other is wide. This gives us just TWO options.(Matthew 7:13-14) It states that few will find it the narrow gate that will lead to life essentially meaning many more people will head towards the wide gate that leads to death. Jesus says I am The Way The Truth and The Life and no one comes to the Father except through me and of course the famous John 3:16. 

 

 

Eugene England, a Mormon writer, said (emphsis mine): 

https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Dialogue_V35N01_75.pdf

 

I recommend the whole article. It might make your toes curl, but it's Mormon theology at its most beautiful.

 

I read the article, but must disagree with much that is said. I do feel like the article mentions a ton about God's nature, however there is so much in that article to really focus on that it would take a whole forum if not multiple to dive into. 

 

 

You know my belief to be false? How? How do you know the Bible is the word of God? How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus Christ died on the cross? How do you know that Adam fell? How do you know your sins are forgiven? How do you know what will happen after you die? Where does this conviction come from? If you do think you know some of these things, how do you feel able to say I don't know?

 

I believe your religion to be false meaning your doctrines and books. I cannot say that YOUR faith is false just because you may claim to be a mormon. You can claim to be a mormon and not believe in what is actually taught. Many people claim they are Christians but do not believe what the Bible says or believe in fundamental principles of God, Salvation, Jesus, Sin, etc.. HOWEVER, if you claim to be a mormon and believe the doctrines and books, then I would say you are following a false religion. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and it's doctrines and books are full of errors, inconsistencies, false prophesies, and rejection of Biblical principals. If you look at my previous points you can see listed examples of why I believe in the Bible.

 

Basically it comes down to authenticity, records, miracles, prophesies that were fulfilled and the probability, evidence for a creator, evidence Jesus was a real person, evidence Jesus died on the cross, evidence he rose from the dead, evidence of real places and events. This is just by looking at it from a historical and scientific view. On top of that, I have confessed that Jesus is Lord, I am a sinner and apart from Him, I am sentenced to death. The Holy Spirit resides in those who are believers so yes there is communication.The Bible does warn us of our hearts and to test the spirits to see if it truly is from God. I do agree though, I cannot prove what happens after death, I cannot prove the fall of Adam, I cannot prove a lot of things. But, it also cannot be disproved. That is the main thing. I believe those things to be true because of all that has pointed to God and to Jesus and truth in what the Bible says historically and scientifically. For me to believe things that I nor others have proof for is simply faith. The fact is though, who can prove what happens after death? Who can prove the fall of Adam? Who can prove Noah's flood? We simply cannot but like I said people cannot disprove it at the same time.

 

Just as it takes faith for me to say these things are true, it takes faith for an atheist to believe that God does not exist. We are not given all the answers. The fact is though that there is much that we do know and if I were to build a case for Christ or for a Creator, there is simply enough evidence that points to it. One this note I really recommend reading Lee Strobel: Case for faith and Case for Creator. If you do not know, he was an atheist out to prove Christians wrong, mainly his wife, and while going through the process, he ended up finding that there too much evidence points towards Christianity for him to deny it. 

 

Your perspectives are based on faith. All of the above are things that cannot be empirically proven. They are good beliefs and I believe them too. But you can't "know" them and say that I don't. If you have the ability to "know" then I do too. If I don't have the ability to "know" then neither do you.

 

There is plenty of empirical evidence which supports the Bible. I have mentioned the book already and it does a great job showing evidence for Christ. I have mentioned before, we have real cities, real places, real people that we can say existed. I have mentioned before, my brother is an archeologist. This is his job. He finds evidence. Noah's ark is believed to have been discovered with a lot to back the claim.  Chariots wheels and evidence of the Egyptian artifacts that date back to the time of Moses are found where the crossing of the red sea took place as well as pillars to commemorate the crossing. http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/chariots-in-red-sea-irrefutable-evidence/ here is a quick link. There are many other sources that say the same stuff... also Discovery Channel did a segment on this I believe. 

 

May I recommend one of the greatest ever sermons on truth:

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth?lang=eng 

Dieter Uchtdorf would agree with you that there is only one absolute truth:

 

So while I agree that there is absolute truth... "things as they really are" I don't think that we, in our limited human capacity know all of God's truth. Our brains simply aren't big enough. Instead he teaches us line upon line and precept upon precept. I don't believe in multiple paths. I believe in one path. But the principles taught to each individual in a particular time and place - the line and precept, may be different. I often use the analogy of vehicles. Your faith is a vehicle for travelling the one path to God. Mine is too. The vehicles may have some differences but they both move us forward. Dieter Uchtdorf uses the analogy of the blind men holding an elephant to teach a similar principle. Each describes a different part (the tail, a leg, the trunk) and describes the animal they are holding differently. Read the article to see what I'm talking about.

 

I pretty much answered this in a previous question. If there is more you want me to expand on I will regarding this subject. When digging deep into this the Law of non-contradiction is something that I feel deals with this issue. 

 

Like Paul, we all "see through a glass darkly." We "know in part." One day we will see in fullness. We will see the absolute truth. But today we only get a bit of it and we work with the bit that we have.

 

As such, I think you do have the truth. But I think I do too. Perhaps I'm holding the leg and you the ear. Eventually we'll see all the elephant but for now, the "dark glass" limits our view. As Paul points out, this doesn't matter... Charity, the way we treat each other, is what really matters. The parable of the goat and sheep (where the king gathers "all nations") teaches a similar principle in Matthew 25.

 

Of course, we are to love the Lord our God with all our Heart, Soul, and Mind and our neighbor as thyself. But I must say that I think you are interpreting the passage to mean that good works is really what matters... this is not what the passage is meant to say at all. Our good deeds do not get us into heaven. Loving the Lord with all our heart soul and mind will result in us living out Christ in our lives. For our deeds should be a reflection of our faith and the Holy Spirit living inside of us, not the other way around. Mormons believe that "after all you can do" then you are saved by Jesus.. this is not the same gospel in the Bible though. 

 

 

We use both interchangeably but "Holy Ghost" is a biblical phrase: John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, who is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." 

 

This also shows that the Holy Spirit was designed to be our teacher. Why not embrace that gift?

 

You are right. Christians use Holy Ghost as well, but not very often. I have rarely heard it used.  Instead we typically say Holy Spirit. I have never really heard a mormon say Holy Spirit, only Holy Ghost. I did not mean it in a way to show that there is a difference just that we tend to say them almost always as Holy Spirit or as Holy Ghost. Those who read from the KJV in church will say both. NASB or NIV typically say Spirit but both are the same word in greek and hebrew. 

 

 

Why stop there? What about Buddhists, Hindus, 7th day adventists. The list goes on and on and on. Their beliefs are not more or less true than mine or yours. See my previous post about Dieter Uchtdorf's talk on truth and the Elephant analogy.

 

Most certainly! All religions can fall into this. Even those who might idolize a book or mythical story... I used the examples because those are the religions I am most familiar with. I have heard from all those the experience of feeling truth. I have never meet or atleast not that I know of anyone from any other religion outside of those listed other than Bahai. I however have not had a conversation with this person regarding if she gets this feeling or not so I did not include that into my post. 

 

Or mostly dead?

 

Do errors in the Bible make it not true? Would a single error on a map make the whole map useless? Nope.

There are indeed errors in the Book of Mormon. The writers acknowledge them. The title page of the Book of Mormon: "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men." The opening section of the Doctrine and Covenants (1:34) similarly says:  "...these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language…"

 

What type of errors are we talking about? I will dig into this deeper tomorrow as I would love to answer this question and give it the time it deserves however it is almost 4AM and I have to wake up at 8. I promise I will get to this tomorrow. 

[pogi]

Mormons believe all paths lead to heaven. Christians believe in one narrow path. You say I should build up a belief that a person has. How can I build up a belief that I know to be false. 

 

It is true that we do not believe that a kind and loving indigenous tribal person who never has the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life is doomed to eternal hell-fire and suffering.  We do not believe that a pure and innocent child of God who happened to be born into the Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist, etc. culture and faith is doomed to eternal hell-fire and gnashing of teeth because he was born to the wrong family.  No, we do not believe that God has condemned the vast majority of the population of earth to eternal damnation and suffering.  Obviously, our view of heaven and salvation is different from yours.  If that is your interpretation of the Bible and understanding of God's nature as a respecter of persons, you have already lost me! 

 

When it comes to exaltation, we believe in only one gate and one path to eternal life.  We do not sacrifice 2 years of our lives to point out that all paths lead to exaltation.  We are the only ones who hold the authority to bind one into covenant through the gate of baptism, which leads to the single straight and narrow path to eternal life.  Either in this life, or the next all will have an opportunity as God is no respecter of persons. He has provided a means to make this possible through the baptism for the dead, which is a principle right out of your own Bible.

 

I did not say you should "build up" false beliefs, I said you would be wise to "build on" common beliefs.  We have found that to be a much more effective and respectful approach to sharing the gospel and conversion.  Obviously, that is not my intent on this board, but if that is your intent, I highly encourage that approach. 

 

On here, I cut to the chase. I did not start off by stating the gospel as I'm sure you all have a decent idea of what I believe. If not, I would love to discuss that with any who wants to hear. 

 

We do know what your general beliefs are, and we also know what we believe.  Do you have anything new to share?  We probably have a pretty darn good idea of your "problems" with our faith as well.  You are not the first "Christian" to come around here.  We understand your concerns and problems better than you probably realize.  So, what do you have to add to the table?

 

Your approach is empirically based.  That is not how spiritual truth is revealed, that is not how the Christ is revealed and known -  "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."  If you can teach me how to spiritually know if what you are saying is true, then I might be persuaded.  Spiritual truths can only be measured by spiritual means. 

Edited November 24, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

I have mentioned before, my brother is an archeologist. This is his job. He finds evidence. Noah's ark is believed to have been discovered with a lot to back the claim.  

 

 

Oh really, they found the ark huh?  That is so wonderful, the bible must be true.  I mean, we now have evidence "with a lot to back the claim" that the ark really, really existed!   The dimensions were just as the Bible described and everything!  

 

 

 

Oh wait, the dimensions…the animals…the food/water…the crap...hmmmmmm

 

 

You said, "There are many other sources that say the same stuff... also Discovery Channel did a segment on this I believe."

 

Oh really, the Discovery Channel did a segment on it?  Now you've really got me convinced!  This empirical evidence thing is working out so great for you! 

 

Pardon the sarcasm, just trying to make a point, which is this - Which number do you think is bigger, the number of those who have become "Christians" based on empirical evidence, or those who have left Christianity based on empirical evidence?  What would that tell you about empirical evidence and spiritual truths?

 

One more question.  Which number do you think is bigger, those who have become "Christians" based on spiritual evidence, or those who have left Christianity based on spiritual evidence?  What would that tell you about true conversion?

Edited November 24, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

 ...Should I mention that the BoM states the Jesus was born in Jerusalem? Alma 7:10.  

 

Please read the following:

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Biblical/Jerusalem_vs_Bethlehem

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/08/i-have-a-question  (scroll down about half way on this one)

 

 so when things that the BoM says contradicts the Bible, I know it to not be true 

 

So far I don't see any contradictions.  Do you have anything else?

[mfbukowski]

Because someone found what might have been an old wooden structure, it has been proven that the man Jesus returned from the dead.

 

An interesting premise.

 

Because we have the name of the city Jerusalem we know that our sins are taken away and we are forgiven by God.  I like that one even better.

 

And donkeys talk and people get eaten by fish and spit out three days later.  The earth was covered by water which magically disappeared somewhere.  Cities were nuked off the face of the earth because of a vengeful god who bargains with people to determine how many righteous people are worth saving.  There are prophecies throughout the bible which have not come true, "yet", but the fact is, they have not come true.

 

The only way any reasonable person would believe any of this is because God revealed the truth of these principles to them through personal revelation.  That is the ONLY reason.

 

God has given me that gift, but if you think those beliefs are "reasonable" and can be derived by reason, I would respectfully disagree.

 

And if you think God has stopped revealing truth to mankind, making him a changeable god, who is at the same time supposedly unchangeable, I would think that you were both unreasonable and that your beliefs were contradictory.

[mfbukowski]

This is something I'm also interested in. I've asked ccook a similar question. I'm genuinely interested to hear the answer. How can someone say they know I am wrong without showing the method by which they came to know they are right.

 

I'm reminded of a TED talk by Brené Brown (16:50):

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

Great stuff- thanks for the link

[canard78]

Oh really, they found the ark huh? That is so wonderful, the bible must be true. I mean, we now have evidence "with a lot to back the claim" that the ark really, really existed! The dimensions were just as the Bible described and everything!

Oh wait, the dimensions…the animals…the food/water…the crap...hmmmmmm

Oh really, the Discovery Channel did a segment on it? Now you've really got me convinced! This empirical evidence thing is working out so great for you!

Pardon the sarcasm, just trying to make a point, which is this - Which number do you think is bigger, the number of those who have become "Christians" based on empirical evidence, or those who have left Christianity based on empirical evidence? What would that tell you about empirical evidence and spiritual truths?

One more question. Which number do you think is bigger, those who have become "Christians" based on spiritual evidence, or those who have left Christianity based on spiritual evidence? What would that tell you about true conversion?

Could you help me out and edit your second quote. It's saying me but it was ccook. Thanks.

[canard78]

Because someone found what might have been an old wooden structure, it has been proven that the man Jesus returned from the dead.

An interesting premise.

Because we have the name of the city Jerusalem we know that our sins are taken away and we are forgiven by God. I like that one even better.

And donkeys talk and people get eaten by fish and spit out three days later. The earth was covered by water which magically disappeared somewhere. Cities were nuked off the face of the earth because of a vengeful god who bargains with people to determine how many righteous people are worth saving. There are prophecies throughout the bible which have not come true, "yet", but the fact is, they have not come true.

The only way any reasonable person would believe any of this is because God revealed the truth of these principles to them through personal revelation. That is the ONLY reason.

God has given me that gift, but if you think those beliefs are "reasonable" and can be derived by reason, I would respectfully disagree.

And if you think God has stopped revealing truth to mankind, making him a changeable god, who is at the same time supposedly unchangeable, I would think that you were both unreasonable and that your beliefs were contradictory.

I'm with Mfb on this one. Someone give him a rep point please, I'm on my phone.

Ccook. Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm tapping with big fingers on a little keyboard so can't fully reply to you.

Before I do, I would still appreciate you know that I am wrong? What is your methodology? Is it science and evidence? If so, why aren't all scientists Christians?

I don't believe because of scientific evidence. I believe because applying the principles of what I believe makes me feel closer to God and being more like Jesus.

I think your belief has the same effect on you and I'm pleased for you.

If you're going to make claims of evidence please share them. Prove to me that Adam existed and all of humanity and living creatures were wiped out by a flood with the exception of a boatful.

This board sets a high standard of backing up claims with references. If someone makes a "call for references" (CFR) it's good etiquette to provide them (quoting the reference, not just pasting a web link). Please consider this a "CFR"

[ccook617]

Hello everyone, 

I would love to respond to you all and give you the answers you are seeking, but you must wait a few days for me to do so. This is the busiest weekend I have had in a while and on top of that, I have family in town so I cannot devote much time on here right now. I know I promised to reply but since a lot of the comments are similar, I simply do not have time. So please be patient. Feel free to ask more questions, just know I cannot answer as soon as I would like due to a very hectic schedule right now. Thank you for understanding. I will be back soon!