Throw Out The Dates, Mayan Mystery

[Robert F. Smith]

The same family of languages....thats what Sorenson said- that there wasnt ever a time when there was one family of languages that was dominant.

The ancient Mayan languages were all part of the same language family.

Dominance of any given Mayan language was based on the region.

The thing to bear in mind is that, like Chinese, the characters are the same but the word or phrase would vary in pronounciation (like  Mandarin and Cantonese, which are mutually unintelligible).

[Robert F. Smith]

Hum...just looking at the evidence left by the Maya and the area of their influence it is extremely safe to say that at the height of their empire they were the dominent culture. This would also mean their family of languages was also the dominant one.

Mayan consists of many individual languages.  Their "empire" was restricted to Mayan city-states or chiefdoms.  They weren't ruling non-Mayan peoples.  So your notion of "dominance" is rather odd.

[MormonMason]

The Jaredites also deforested the land northward which would of made travel easier.

You just above, a few posts back, wrote that travel through the narrow neck was so difficult, and that they had to cut through jungle to pass through, that Hagoth decided to build ships to make travel to the land northward easier.  So, which is it? The narrow neck was virtually impassible, necessitating Hagoth's plans, or it was so easy to pass through the land northward because it was deforested by the Jaredites? Do you not see yourself contradicting yourself all over the place? It's like you have no idea what you believe on this matter.

[Robert F. Smith]

Two things- If they were the most dominant culture of mesoamerica at one time then that would also make their language the most dominant. Second, the language "family" woukd relatively be the same and be the dominant family of languages written and spoken.

The statement by Sorenson is highly problematic. In doing so he us assuming that even at the height of the Mayan empire, they were not the dominant culture in the area. What is he smoking?

Nonsense.  If any culture was dominant it would certainly have been the civilization of Teotihuacan of central Mexico, and some of their Toltec elites came down and ruled Maya city-states such as Chichen Itza and Uaxactun.

You need to spend some time with the Smithsonian's Handbook of Middle American Indians.

[Robert F. Smith]

Cursor,

 

Could the "casting up" of highways (mentioned above) refer to roads being built up above ground level to avoid seasonal flooding?  Is there any evidence for that anywhere in Mesoamerica?  Or is that reading too much into the word up?

 

 

Webster's 1828:

 

HIGHWA'Y, n. A public road; a way open to all passengers; so called, either because it is a great or public road, or because the earth was raised to form a dry path. Highways open a communication from one city or town to another.

This is just the nature of extensive Mayan sacbeob highways, which were beautifully paved.

[Robert F. Smith]

Sorenson said- " No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

There is ample evidence that during the height of the Maya, it was the obvious dominant language in the whoe area. How can Sorenson make such a ckaim when the evidence says otherwise.

He made the claim because it is true.  You on the other hand are the first person I have ever heard of to make the opposite claim, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, but lots of evidence to the contrary.  Why?  Because you make it up as you go, Gangnam style.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think it might be more accurate to say "Reformed Egyptian" is a term applied to the otherwise undescribed writing system used by an extinct line. We know that it is not Egyptian, but only 'called such among us'.

 

Joseph himself tended use Egypt and Egyptian as stand-ins for something 'Ancient and Hidden'.

 

I would be very surprised if Mormon's composition wasn't far more similar to contemporary local writing systems. What is clear is that Mormon did not write in what Nephi wrote in.

 

Because only the Nephite plate-keeping line would have had any reason to call it 'Reformed Egyptian' for sacred continuity, we shouldn't expect for any such writing system when/if discovered to be linguistically classified anything like an Old World Egyptian writing system. The text itself shows that we shouldn't expect that. 

 

What we do know is that it wasn't in and of itself clearly written in a popular general public writing system (Mormon knew that a 'key' would be needed to interpret it), but perhaps written in what would be considered a cypher of sorts. He probably assumed the general public language would continue on - his writing in this Sacred Writing thus wouldn't be 'sealed up' by his use of that language then.

Sheer nonsense, David.

The reason we know that "reformed Egyptian" bears some relationship to ancient Egyptian is that the Brass Plates of Laban were in Egyptian, and that Nephi and his successors were trained in Egyptian in order to be able to read them and to continue to write in that same language and script.  Finally, Moroni informs us that both the Hebrew and Egyptian have been altered, but that "reformed Egyptian" is better for space-saving.  No hint of some other language here.  Were this not part of an explicit stream of tradition, your speculation on it might be useful.

[MormonMason]

Sheer nonsense, David.

The reason we know that "reformed Egyptian" bears some relationship to ancient Egyptian is that the Brass Plates of Laban were in Egyptian, and that Nephi and his successors were trained in Egyptian in order to be able to read them and to continue to write in that same language and script.  Finally, Moroni informs us that both the Hebrew and Egyptian have been altered, but that "reformed Egyptian" is better for space-saving.  No hint of some other language here.  Were this not part of an explicit stream of tradition, your speculation on it might be useful.

There is that and that the characters on what we have of what is called the Anthon Transcript have the appearance of a modified transitional phase of Egyptian, with a mix of Hieratic and mostly Demotic characters.

[Rob Osborn]

You just above, a few posts back, wrote that travel through the narrow neck was so difficult, and that they had to cut through jungle to pass through, that Hagoth decided to build ships to make travel to the land northward easier.  So, which is it? The narrow neck was virtually impassible, necessitating Hagoth's plans, or it was so easy to pass through the land northward because it was deforested by the Jaredites? Do you not see yourself contradicting yourself all over the place? It's like you have no idea what you believe on this matter.

Hagoths ships provided an alternative route. The land northward was deforested to some extent and even perhaps some of the narrow neck area.

[Rob Osborn]

Mayan consists of many individual languages.  Their "empire" was restricted to Mayan city-states or chiefdoms.  They weren't ruling non-Mayan peoples.  So your notion of "dominance" is rather odd.

They were all the same family of language.

[Rob Osborn]

Nonsense.  If any culture was dominant it would certainly have been the civilization of Teotihuacan of central Mexico, and some of their Toltec elites came down and ruled Maya city-states such as Chichen Itza and Uaxactun.

You need to spend some time with the Smithsonian's Handbook of Middle American Indians.

And what about the Book of Mormon? Its the most accurate and truthful history of the ancient Anerican peoples

[MormonMason]

They were all the same family of language.

Did you ever look at the map I presented above? Define dominance in light of that map.  The Green is the locations of Maya influence and languages.  I certainly don't see the green covering the whole of Mesoamerica.

[Rob Osborn]

Did you ever look at the map I presented above? Define dominance in light of that map.  The Green is the locations of Maya influence and languages.  I certainly don't see the green covering the whole of Mesoamerica.

The Mayan "influence" was a much bigger area than just the green. We know that Mayan influence was all of mesoamerica. We cannot be sure if all of mesoamerica spoke a Mayan dialect or just the more "dominant" parts of the land.

[cursor]

Recall that king Limhi (in the land of Nephi, southward from Zarahemla, and in the land southward) sent a batch of scouts to look for Zarahemla for help them out.

• they missed Zarahemla,
• traveled to the hill Cumorah/Ramah,
• found the destroyed Jaredite nation,
• returned to the their king Limhi in the land of Nephi,
• and the scouts reported that they'd found Zarahemla destroyed.

If the isthmus of Panama is the narrow neck of land, then these scouts would have had to pass through the Darién Gap, across the North American Continent to the hill "cumorah" in what is now Palmyra NY, returned south and west across the continent, passed through the jungles and swamps at the treacherous Darién Gap (again) ... and not realize that they'd been through hell and back? Note that there is no mention that any of them were hurt or killed or that they encountered difficulties (except that they were simply "lost for many days").

 

Except I dont believe that Limhis group never made it clear to Cumorah in New York. They went maybe as far as southern Mexico.

 

Mosiah 8:7-9 (with some editing for brevity)

And the king [Limhi] said unto him [Ammon]:

Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that 43 of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage.

    And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters [kinda sounds like Ripliancum, which is beyond the hill Ramah/Cumorah], having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people [the Jaredites] who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

    And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought 24 plates [the record of Ether] which are filed with engravings, and they are of pure gold.

 

The war-torn location discovered by Limhi's 43 scouts is precisely the same setting described by Ether as being the final battleground of the Jaredites (at the hill Ramah/Cumorah, and the waters of Ripliancum):

 

Ether 15:7-33 (with some editing for brevity)

And when Coriantumr saw that he was about to fall he fled again before the people of Shiz. And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all [which Rob believes to be the Great Lakes]; wherefore when they came to these waters they pitched their tents; and Shiz also pitched his tents near unto them; and therefore on the morrow they did come to battle. And .. they fought an exceedingly sore battle, in which Coriantumr was wounded again, and he fainted with the loss of blood. And .. the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, and they caused them to flee before them; and they did flee southward.

    And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father did hide up the records unto the Lord [the hill Cumorah]. 

    And .. they did gather together all the people upon all the face of the land. And .. when they were all gathered together, everyone to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men and women and children being armed with weapons of war, .. they did march forth one against another to battle.

    And .. they fought all that day, and when the night came they slept upon their swords.

    And on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were 52 of the people of Coriantumr, and 69 of the people of Shiz. And .. they slept upon their swords that night, and on the morrow they fought again, and they contended in their might with their swords and with their shields, all that day. And when the night came there were 32 of the people of Shiz, and 27 of the people of Coriantumr.

    They ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow .. And it came to pass that they fought for the space of three hours .. and the men of Coriantumr .. were about to flee for their lives; but behold, Shiz .. and .. his men .. did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And .. when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood.

    And .. when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz .. And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.

    And the Lord spake unto Ether [who was hiding in "the cavity of a rock"], and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record .. and he hid them in a manner that the people [43 scouts] of Limhi did find them. 

 

If Limhi's 43 scouts had not traveled to the hill Ramah/Cumorah, then 1) they wouldn't have found the Jaredite waters of Ripliancum (which was even farther north of the hill Ramah/Cumorah), and 2) they wouldn't have retrieved the 24 gold plate record that Ether had hidden—after all Ether's "cavity of a rock" had to have located near the hill Ramah/Cumorah in order for him to have witnessed the results of the final Coriantumr/Shiz battles.

 

Also recall that Coriantumr, despite his serious wounds, made his journey from the hill Ramah/Cumorah all the way down to Zarahemla sometime after the final Jaredite battle (Omni 1:21). 

 

 

Except I dont believe that Limhis group never made it clear to Cumorah in New York. They went maybe as far as southern Mexico.

 

The fact that you don't believe that Limhi's 43 scouts may not have gone as far as [the traditional] hill Cumorah [in Palmyra NY] or the Great Lakes, that doesn't explain how these scouts could have traveled through the Darién Gap ... both ways ... and been able to return 1) without realizing that they were passing through this treacherous terrain, and 2) without experiencing major injury or death.

[David T]

Sheer nonsense, David.

The reason we know that "reformed Egyptian" bears some relationship to ancient Egyptian is that the Brass Plates of Laban were in Egyptian, and that Nephi and his successors were trained in Egyptian in order to be able to read them and to continue to write in that same language and script.  Finally, Moroni informs us that both the Hebrew and Egyptian have been altered, but that "reformed Egyptian" is better for space-saving.  No hint of some other language here.  Were this not part of an explicit stream of tradition, your speculation on it might be useful.

 

The history of the sacred language in the Book of Mormon is one of hybrid, and one of change. How exactly King Nephi's record was written is in itself not so simple. "Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians." - is this a simple reference to characters in use in Egypt to represent Hebrew words? Likely, but we actually don't know for certain.

 

As dominant spoken language shifted, did later scribes and Nephite priests earlier in the tradition prepare 'targums' of sorts for the popular language of the people based on the Brass Plate tradition? Were the Brass Plates actually eventually read and studied through the entirety of Nephite History, or eventually was this done only/mainly in Translation? And was the Translation complete? They must have had some form of translation eventually, at least orally. I don't see the entirety of the Nephite people (especially as those labels shifted between different cultures and allegiences) being fluent in scriptural Egyptian, Hebrew, or some Hebryptian Hybrid. When the prophets quoted scripture to the public - Nephite or Lamanite - , were they making up a translation on the spot, or based on their studies of translations and explanations that had been done before? The King Benjamin Translation, so to say?

 

Was Jesus speaking Aramaic when he arrived, and quoted Isaiah and Malachi? When he gave his Sermon at the Temple Mount? Was it Egpytian? Hebrew? Greek? A common Mesoamerican dialect? Was what was stated then translated back into the older Sacred Record Keeping Traditional Language, or recorded as-is?

 

I think the issue of language transmission and determining what the final 4th Century CE 'Reformed Egyptian' label actually refers to - even among Mormon's limited sacred record, is not nearly as clear-cut as it could be, and find the label of 'sheer nonsense' a bit needlessly condescendingly overstating your point, Robert.

Edited October 4, 2013 by David T

[Rob Osborn]

Mosiah 8:7-9 (with some editing for brevity)

And the king [Limhi] said unto him [Ammon]:

Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that 43 of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage.

    And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters [kinda sounds like Ripliancum, which is beyond the hill Ramah/Cumorah], having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people [the Jaredites] who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

    And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought 24 plates [the record of Ether] which are filed with engravings, and they are of pure gold.

 

The war-torn location discovered by Limhi's 43 scouts is precisely the same setting described by Ether as being the final battleground of the Jaredites (at the hill Ramah/Cumorah, and the waters of Ripliancum):

 

Ether 15:7-33 (with some editing for brevity)

And when Coriantumr saw that he was about to fall he fled again before the people of Shiz. And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all [which Rob believes to be the Great Lakes]; wherefore when they came to these waters they pitched their tents; and Shiz also pitched his tents near unto them; and therefore on the morrow they did come to battle. And .. they fought an exceedingly sore battle, in which Coriantumr was wounded again, and he fainted with the loss of blood. And .. the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, and they caused them to flee before them; and they did flee southward.

    And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father did hide up the records unto the Lord [the hill Cumorah]. 

    And .. they did gather together all the people upon all the face of the land. And .. when they were all gathered together, everyone to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men and women and children being armed with weapons of war, .. they did march forth one against another to battle.

    And .. they fought all that day, and when the night came they slept upon their swords.

    And on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were 52 of the people of Coriantumr, and 69 of the people of Shiz. And .. they slept upon their swords that night, and on the morrow they fought again, and they contended in their might with their swords and with their shields, all that day. And when the night came there were 32 of the people of Shiz, and 27 of the people of Coriantumr.

    They ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow .. And it came to pass that they fought for the space of three hours .. and the men of Coriantumr .. were about to flee for their lives; but behold, Shiz .. and .. his men .. did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And .. when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood.

    And .. when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz .. And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.

    And the Lord spake unto Ether [who was hiding in "the cavity of a rock"], and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record .. and he hid them in a manner that the people [43 scouts] of Limhi did find them. 

 

If Limhi's 43 scouts had not traveled to the hill Ramah/Cumorah, then 1) they wouldn't have found the Jaredite waters of Ripliancum (which was even farther north of the hill Ramah/Cumorah), and 2) they wouldn't have retrieved the 24 gold plate record that Ether had hidden—after all Ether's "cavity of a rock" had to have located near the hill Ramah/Cumorah in order for him to have witnessed the results of the final Coriantumr/Shiz battles.

 

Also recall that Coriantumr, despite his serious wounds, made his journey from the hill Ramah/Cumorah all the way down to Zarahemla sometime after the final Jaredite battle (Omni 1:21). 

 

 

 

The fact that you don't believe that Limhi's 43 scouts may not have gone as far as [the traditional] hill Cumorah [in Palmyra NY] or the Great Lakes, that doesn't explain how these scouts could have traveled through the Darién Gap ... both ways ... and been able to return 1) without realizing that they were passing through this treacherous terrain, and 2) without experiencing major injury or death.

We have gone over this before. Limhis group got lost which is a major point. In their travels while being lost they discovered an entire new land. That land was in an area of many waters. This text doesnt imply that they were in Cumorah at this time. Cumorah was a land also of many rivers, fountains, etc.Just because they share some similarities doesnt mean they were the same land.

The text also doesnt say where Ether left the records after he finished them. He could of carried them anywhere just as Mirmon and Moroni also did.

The Darien gap while maybe a little treacherous, is not as bad as everyone thinks it is. 2 wheel drive cars have drove through the gap. If that is possible then it is completely possible to walk through it also in much easier fashion.

Tell me this, how does an expedition group of 43 of your best men get lost in the isthmus of tehuantepec area?

[cursor]

So ... you don't think they could have gotten lost there? Why not? What's your point, Rob?

 

Tell me this, how does an expedition group of 43 of your best men get lost in the isthmus of tehuantepec area?

 

First of all, we have no idea what the skill level of those men might have been. Secondly, anyone can get lost in locations where they have no prior experience. You may find it useful to peek at details related to MormonMason's previous mention:

 

Don't forget the 1854 US Naval Exploring Expedition investigation (very seriously capable folk) into the "Darien Gap" that cost six lives and resulted in people being left behind in the process.  They were just trying to get from the Atlantic to the Pacific and ended up getting lost for months and starving, with people dying.  And these were survival-trained military personnel!

http://www.amazon.com/The-Darkest-Jungle-Darien-Expedition/dp/B0001GDQM2

 

If a group has faulty info (including potentially misleading maps), then anyone can get lost ... even in the isthmus of Tehuantepec.

Edited October 5, 2013 by cursor

[Calm]

My husband got lost hiking in the mountains behind our house with a friend who is skilled in rescue. The fog came down and they turned back down into the valley too soon and got detoured off in the opposite direction...

[Rob Osborn]

So ... you don't think they could have gotten lost there? Why not? What's your point, Rob?

 

 

First of all, we have no idea what the skill level of those men might have been. Secondly, anyone can get lost in locations where they have no prior experience. You may find it useful to peek at details related to MormonMason's previous mention:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Darkest-Jungle-Darien-Expedition/dp/B0001GDQM2

 

If a group has faulty info (including potentially misleading maps), then anyone can get lost ... even in the isthmus of Tehuantepec.

I dont see how one could travel in a limited scope as per mesoamerican model and get lost within a 100-200 radius especially when one can climb some local hills and /or mountain and see the oceans. I suppose that in certain conditions one could get turned around. It wold be interesting to hear more about how one possibly could get lost in that area.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I have always been intrigued with the great ruins of a people we have called the "Maya". I have also been greatly intrigued with how we go about deciphering their text and calendar system. Of note is that they have a start date of some obscure 3114 bc date. Assuming the Maya to either be BoM peoples or having great influence with them, I find it all the more troubling that this start date we have assigned doesnt really line up with anything of great biblical note. The Jaredites most likely used a calendar system carried on by tradition from the creation, flood, tower of Babel, etc. The nephites used a calendar system of having been so many years removed from Israel up to the time of Christ and then starting a new count after Christ.

In doing some research into the matter I found out there have been around 50 different correlation dates assigned with the Mayan calendar. These dates differ by as much as thousands of years. Where the rubber meets the road however, the GMT correlation has been the one accepted because it seems to best agree with C14 dating. However, anyone familiar with this dating process knows that it has many variables into the unknown. Scientists are often required to give a sampke to be dated along with a guess as to what they believe it to be so that dates that are returned outside of this guess are discarded as scientific error- no joke! Well, its also no joke that certain Mayan sites have returned dates more than a thousand years older than expected or guessed upon and so, these dates get "corrected". There is a process of correcting dates scientifically. This process includes the process of discarding dates outside of the generally assumed or guessed upon antiquity!

This got me to thinking. Supposing the Mayan calendar is built from or has a start date of the actual creation and the fall of Adam and Eve then it backs up the dates associated with their society a thousand years or greater. This thus would have a drastic effect on just who the Mayans really were.

Tf it on fit, you must accurate .

[webbles]

The Darien gap while maybe a little treacherous, is not as bad as everyone thinks it is. 2 wheel drive cars have drove through the gap. If that is possible then it is completely possible to walk through it also in much easier fashion.

 

Reading the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_gap) it doesn't seem like an easy drive.  In the crossing sections, it does mention that 2 wheel drive cars have done it with several support vehicles to help them and they also used boats (they did it in 1961 and the first fully overland wheeled crossing without boats was in 1971).  It doesn't sound easy and I wouldn't want to drive my car through it.

[Tiki]

He made the claim because it is true. You on the other hand are the first person I have ever heard of to make the opposite claim, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, but lots of evidence to the contrary. Why? Because you make it up as you go, Gangnam style.

Making it up as you go, 'Gangnam style,' is used by LGT Apologists:

"There is considerable ambiguity in the statement that the early Nephites "covered" the face of the land. This looks like standard rhetoric." http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=jbms&vol=8&num=1&id=181&q=Stela%205&search_result

Yep. The Book of Mormon is ambiguous because it contradicts with Ancient Mesoamerica. Therefore, The Book of Mormon contains standard rhetoric (in other words, The Book of Mormon is wrong, not the Mesoamerica LGT theory).

This what you learn from LGT Apologists.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Tiki

[cursor]

I dont see how one could travel in a limited scope as per mesoamerican model and get lost within a 100-200 radius especially when one can climb some local hills and /or mountain and see the oceans. I suppose that in certain conditions one could get turned around. It wold be interesting to hear more about how one possibly could get lost in that area.

 

If the lands of Nephi and Zarahemla were in the southern continent, and if the isthmus of Darién were the narrow neck of land to the Book of Mormon peoples, then even if they did get lost in the treacherous Darién gap, they would have realized where they were when they reached the isthmus of Tehuantepec ... because they could "climb some local hills and/or mountain and see the oceans." Why would they continue further. Sounds to me like it would clear to them that they were passing through the narrow neck, and that it would be time to turn around and head back to the land of Lehi-Nephi.

 

At Panama's narrowest point, it's only about 30 miles from one ocean to the other.

Edited October 5, 2013 by cursor

[Rob Osborn]

If the lands of Nephi and Zarahemla were in the southern continent, and if the isthmus of Darién were the narrow neck of land to the Book of Mormon peoples, then even if they did get lost in the treacherous Darién gap, they would have realized where they were when they reached the isthmus of Tehuantepec ... because they could "climb some local hills and/or mountain and see the oceans." Why would they continue further. Sounds to me like it would clear to them that they were passing through the narrow neck, and that it would be time to turn around and head back to the land of Lehi-Nephi.

 

At Panama's narrowest point, it's only about 30 miles from one ocean to the other.

They got lost before they found the narrow neck. Upon finding ruins and signs of a destroyed nation their search party turned into an explorer party and thus they traveled into mesoamerica.

[cursor]

I find your logic confusing, Rob.

We need to get at on the same page, 

 

You say:

• Limhi's group left the land of Nephi (in the land southward), searching for Zarahemla.
• They missed Zarahemla (in the land southward, but north of Nephi)
• They found some of the destroyed Jaredites.
• They didn't go to the hill Cumorah, in what is now NY (nor did they go to the land of Ripliancum).
• They "went maybe as far as southern Mexico" (and Ether might have traveled to there with his 24 gold plate record).
  
  then ...
   
• ":They [Limhi's party] got lost before they found the narrow neck."

Please tell me where you think the follow Book of Mormon locations fit in our western hemisphere.

• The land of Nephi
• The land of Zarahemla (north of Nephi)
• The narrow neck of land (north of Zarahemla)
• The hill Cumorah (north of the narrow neck, and by the east sea)

 

Thanks.