Throw Out The Dates, Mayan Mystery

[Rob Osborn]

"It is logical to expect that the array of environmental settings and the multiple peoples occupying them would be reflected in the number and distribution of languages spoken anciently in Mesoamerica. Around the world, the more broken the terrain, the more fragmented is the distribution of languages. It is impossible to know precisely how many tongues were used in Mesoamerica, but two hundred would not overstate the number. (These were distinct languages, each on unintelligible to speakers of other languages, not merely dialects.)

 

"Linguists are far from united on how these tongues related to each other. Some reckon that five or six major, independent families were involved. Those families differ from each other as much as, say, the Semitic family (including Hebrew) differs from the Indo-European family (including English and Latin). But other language experts are less willing to lump diverse languages into such gross families. The number of groupings they recognize is closer to two dozen, each seemingly independent from the others. Certain single languages have no apparent relatives at all in the area. No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

 

John L. Sorenson

Sorenson really said that? Using their own dates for when the Mayan ruled, the entirearea of Meso-America was using the same caendar, numbering system, written language, etc, based solely off evidence alone. Somehow it doesnt surprise me though as he also thought Hagoths ships could of sailed no more than a couple hundred miles.

[cursor]

JLS didn't soley address the Maya. He's talking about ancient Mesoamerican cultures. Surely you understand that throughout ancient times there was more than the Maya. Re-read the quote ... but, this time with a reasonable and open mind. In the words of the Moody Blues, "breathe deep." What does JLS actually say?

 

BTW, you can find the quoted text from my previous post in JLS' Images of Ancient America: Visualizing Book of Mormon Life, on page 24, published 15 years ago. Where have you been, dude?

Edited October 1, 2013 by cursor

[poulsenll]

Link doesnt work

Try it again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_writing_systems

Larry P

[Rob Osborn]

JLS didn't soley address the Maya. He's talking about ancient Mesoamerican cultures. Surely you understand that throughout ancient times there was more than the Maya. Re-read the quote ... but, this time with a reasonable and open mind. In the words of the Moody Blues, "breathe deep." What does JLS actually say?

 

BTW, you can find the quoted text from my previous post in JLS' Images of Ancient America: Visualizing Book of Mormon Life, on page 24, published 15 years ago. Where have you been, dude?

Sorenson said- " No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

There is ample evidence that during the height of the Maya, it was the obvious dominant language in the whoe area. How can Sorenson make such a ckaim when the evidence says otherwise.

[ksfisher]

Sorenson said- " No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

There is ample evidence that during the height of the Maya, it was the obvious dominant language in the whoe area. How can Sorenson make such a ckaim when the evidence says otherwise.

 

There is no one Mayan language: 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages

 

Here is a good starting point for Mesoamerican languages:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_languages

[cursor]

Sorenson said- " No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

How can Sorenson make such a ckaim when the evidence says otherwise.

 

Actually, I know of no one else more qualified to make that ... or any other 'ckaim' when it comes to the history of Mesoamerican cultures.

[Bikeemikey]

Sorenson said- " No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

There is ample evidence that during the height of the Maya, it was the obvious dominant language in the whoe area. How can Sorenson make such a ckaim when the evidence says otherwise.

 

Thinking you might be barking up the wrong tree with this objection.

[Rob Osborn]

Actually, I know of no one else more qualified to make that ... or any other 'ckaim' when it comes to the history of Mesoamerican cultures.

Its amazing to me that a statement like he made can be so wrong. Perhaps he just didnt proof his statement.

[webbles]

Its amazing to me that a statement like he made can be so wrong. Perhaps he just didnt proof his statement.

What did he say that was wrong?

[Rob Osborn]

What did he say that was wrong?

Sorenson said- " No evidence hints that there was ever one dominant language or language family throughout Mesoamerica."

[MormonMason]

I always read the context. As was already mentioned, the word "curious" justifies the context. Of importance here is why Hagoth built the ship to begin with. In the semi-hemispheric model it makes perfect sense. The narrow neck was a type of natural barrier or difficult area of passage and thus one of the several reasons the Jaredites never migrated into the land southward. An area of desolation at the time of the Nephites Hagoth seized upon the opportunity to provide travel bypassing the narrow neck altogether to get the people north of desolation. My guess is that the Panama region was just as the text reads it being "Bountiful" a place of jungle like area and not readily easy for mass migrations to pass through easily. In support I give this verse-

23 And now he did not tarry in the land of Zarahemla, but he did march forth with a large army, even towards the city of Bountiful; for it was his determination to go forth and cut his way through with the sword, that he might obtain the north parts of the land. (Helaman 1:23)

Hagoths ships thus made sense. In the meso American model it makes no sense whatsoever as the lands northward from proposed locations are closer than the distance to the west sea to get to Hagoths ships. In the Meso-American model the main populations were towards the eastern side of the narrow neck area with Cumorah being also on the eastern side just north of the narrow neck. So then why woyld people travel from the east to get to Hagoths ships, sail north a few hundred miles then dock and let the people out so they can travel back across the land eastward? It doesnt fit any logic.

But, if the narrow neck truly is Panama region and it was somewhat jungle area then it makes perfect sense that Hagoths ships would take them from the upper northwest of Colombia northward past all the narrow neck and land of desolation and into the Sanoran desert area where they did indeed become exceedingly expert in cement in that area to build their houses.

Panama is virtually impassible from South America (even today there are no roads I know of that lead to Panama from South America), and the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon was not impassible.  In fact, it was quite passible, which was why they needed to head people off before they could get there.  It was so passible, in fact, that it as necessary to set up garrisons and fortifications there to block access in later times from the land southward.  Because the Lamanites had superior numbers even the fortifications and soldiers could not keep them from entering the land northward from the narrow neck and the narrow pass on the narrow neck of land.

 

The Jaredites did not move to the land southward for a couple reasons.  They also were blocked from entry into the land southward by the Lord, using serpents.  Some people, however, did visit the land southward in Jaredite times.  After the serpents were destroyed, they made it a place of game to supply food for the Jaredites.  See, for example Ether 9:31-33; 10:19-21.  See what I mean about you reading the context? You aren't.  The migrations of peoples had to be stopped by various other means because the land was not impassible.  That is a major reason why Panama just doesn't work and one of several reasons why your logic is faulty.

 

There was no reason for Hagoth to build ships that relates to the passibility of the narrow neck of land.  This is why Mormon found Hagoth noteworthy.  Mormon knew the landscape and would have known that there really was no reason why Hagoth would do such a thing.  Shipping did become important to the shipping of timber later, however.  Herein is another reason why Panama cannot be the narrow neck.  It was laden with trees and timber, and pretty much always was after its rise from the sea millions of years ago.

 

And, Mormon was not mentioning the Pueblo peoples and the peoples who lived in the deserts.  He would have mentioned such if so.  And, again, the Mesoamerican view makes perfect sense in the situation with Hagoth and the ships.  There is zero mention of the mass deaths of large groups of people from thirst in the Sonoran Desert that would have occurred.  But, backtracking southward, eastward, and northward, an "exceedingly great journey" from the Gulf of California, would have occurred.  Consider that Hagoth had little idea of what he was doing.  The landscape was not all that well known at that time and exploration would have been necessary even from entrance via the narrow pass on the narrow neck of land.

 

I can see Hagoth thinking it would be easier taking the currents up north rather than traveling through the narrow pass, because the terrain was not well known at that time.  In any case, the idea that Hagoth had was noteworthy for particular mention by Mormon because Hagoth did what he did precisely because he was "an exceedingly curious man."  Note that he is not called a "curious workman" and his ships were not said to be of "curious workmanship."  Both "curious workman" and "curious workmanship" are in the vocabulary of the Book of Mormon but neither term is used here by Mormon to describe either Hagoth or his ships.

 

That Hagoth did not know what he was doing is shown by one ship never being heard from again and by another going to somewhere unknown.  The currents around the Isthmus of Tehuantepec every once in a while change due to weather conditions.  Normally, the currents flow along and into the coast.  During certain times of the year, particularly during El Nino/La Nina transitions, the currents would have taken the ships away from the shore and into the deep Pacific instead of northward along the shore to the Gulf of California.  Any ships caught in those currents would be lost.

 

Another reason why the Sonoran Desert cannot be considered is because the Nephites built roads and cities, and used cement to build these.  We know cement was used in northern Mesoamerica.  Many examples have been found, a number of which do date to Book of Mormon times.  The same goes for roads, many of which were built of the same kinds of cements used for their buildings.  There is zero evidence for this in the Sonoran Desert.  And the Pueblo peoples were dependent upon water from snow because of the unreliability of water during the summer months.  There is no mention of snow or usage of snow for water in the land northward, in the Book of Mormon.

 

Your use of Helaman 1:23 seems to give the appearance that you think the passage concerns cutting through the jungles like people use machetes today.  If that is what you are thinking, the thinking is ridiculous.  Again, read the context, which it is pretty obvious you haven't.  The Lamanites had already "cut down" a considerable number of people on their way to Bountiful.  ("Cut down" and "cut ... through" are connected and applied to their intent to kill a lot of people to make their goal of attaining the land northward, not to the modern-day practice of taking machetes through thick, impassible jungles).  Moronihah knew they would have accomplished their desires so he sent an army to head them off before they reached the region.  They knew how easy it would have been for the Lamanites to obtain their goal and enter and possess the land northward, had they been permitted to gain access to the narrow pass.  Several times the Lamanites attempted to reach the land northward.  They only failed because the Nephites headed them off before they got there.  But, the final time they made the attempt, they succeeded and easily killed and trod down many Nephites on the way in.  It was that easy.

Edited October 2, 2013 by MormonMason

[Rob Osborn]

Panama is virtually impassible from South America (even today there are no roads I know of that lead to Panama from South America), and the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon was not impassible.  In fact, it was quite passible, which was why they needed to head people off before they could get there.  It was so passible, in fact, that it as necessary to set up garrisons and fortifications there to block access in later times from the land southward.  Because the Lamanites had superior numbers even the fortifications and soldiers could not keep them from entering the land northward from the narrow neck and the narrow pass on the narrow neck of land.

 

The Jaredites did not move to the land southward for a couple reasons.  They also were blocked from entry into the land southward by the Lord, using serpents.  Some people, however, did visit the land southward in Jaredite times.  After the serpents were destroyed, they made it a place of game to supply food for the Jaredites.  See, for example Ether 9:31-33; 10:19-21.  See what I mean about you reading the context? You aren't.  The migrations of peoples had to be stopped by various other means because the land was not impassible.  That is a major reason why Panama just doesn't work and one of several reasons why your logic is faulty.

 

There was no reason for Hagoth to build ships that relates to the passibility of the narrow neck of land.  This is why Mormon found Hagoth noteworthy.  Mormon knew the landscape and would have known that there really was no reason why Hagoth would do such a thing.  Shipping did become important to the shipping of timber later, however.  Herein is another reason why Panama cannot be the narrow neck.  It was laden with trees and timber, and pretty much always was after its rise from the sea millions of years ago.

 

And, Mormon was not mentioning the Pueblo peoples and the peoples who lived in the deserts.  He would have mentioned such if so.  And, again, the Mesoamerican view makes perfect sense in the situation with Hagoth and the ships.  There is zero mention of the mass deaths of large groups of people from thirst in the Sonoran Desert that would have occurred.  But, backtracking southward, eastward, and northward, an "exceedingly great journey" from the Gulf of California, would have occurred.  Consider that Hagoth had little idea of what he was doing.  The landscape was not all that well known at that time and exploration would have been necessary even from entrance via the narrow pass on the narrow neck of land.

 

I can see Hagoth thinking it would be easier taking the currents up north rather than traveling through the narrow pass, because the terrain was not well known at that time.  In any case, the idea that Hagoth had was noteworthy for particular mention by Mormon because Hagoth did what he did precisely because he was "an exceedingly curious man."  Note that he is not called a "curious workman" and his ships were not said to be of "curious workmanship."  Both "curious workman" and "curious workmanship" are in the vocabulary of the Book of Mormon but neither term is used here by Mormon to describe either Hagoth or his ships.

 

That Hagoth did not know what he was doing is shown by one ship never being heard from again and by another going to somewhere unknown.  The currents around the Isthmus of Tehuantepec every once in a while change due to weather conditions.  Normally, the currents flow along and into the coast.  During certain times of the year, particularly during El Nino/La Nina transitions, the currents would have taken the ships away from the shore and into the deep Pacific instead of northward along the shore to the Gulf of California.  Any ships caught in those currents would be lost.

 

Another reason why the Sonoran Desert cannot be considered is because the Nephites built roads and cities, and used cement to build these.  We know cement was used in northern Mesoamerica.  Many examples have been found, a number of which do date to Book of Mormon times.  The same goes for roads, many of which were built of the same kinds of cements used for their buildings.  There is zero evidence for this in the Sonoran Desert.  And the Pueblo peoples were dependent upon water from snow because of the unreliability of water during the summer months.  There is no mention of snow or usage of snow for water in the land northward, in the Book of Mormon.

 

Your use of Helaman 1:23 seems to give the appearance that you think the passage concerns cutting through the jungles like people use machetes today.  If that is what you are thinking, the thinking is ridiculous.  Again, read the context, which it is pretty obvious you haven't.  The Lamanites had already "cut down" a considerable number of people on their way to Bountiful.  ("Cut down" and "cut ... through" are connected and applied to their intent to kill a lot of people to make their goal of attaining the land northward, not to the modern-day practice of taking machetes through thick, impassible jungles).  Moronihah knew they would have accomplished their desires so he sent an army to head them off before they reached the region.  They knew how easy it would have been for the Lamanites to obtain their goal and enter and possess the land northward, had they been permitted to gain access to the narrow pass.  Several times the Lamanites attempted to reach the land northward.  They only failed because the Nephites headed them off before they got there.  But, the final time they made the attempt, they succeeded and easily killed and trod down many Nephites on the way in.  It was that easy.

I am gonna have to address this one line at a time...

[Rob Osborn]

"Panama is virtually impassible from South America (even today there are no roads I know of that lead to Panama from South America)"

It is virually impassible when one allows the jungle to encroach. Evidence in ancient times shows that the whole part of panama had populations that traded with Mexico and South America. We have already hashed this out before.

[Rob Osborn]

"The Jaredites did not move to the land southward for a couple reasons. They also were blocked from entry into the land southward by the Lord, using serpents. Some people, however, did visit the land southward in Jaredite times. After the serpents were destroyed, they made it a place of game to supply food for the Jaredites. See, for example Ether 9:31-33; 10:19-21. See what I mean about you reading the context? You aren't."

I never said that Jaredites never went to the land southward I said that they never built their society in the land southward. I am well aware that they used the land to hunt game after the serpents were destroyed. They never built their cities there. Mesoamerican models that use Olmec as being Jaredite are off here because Olmec cities and areas of influence are south of the narrow neck.

[MormonMason]

"Panama is virtually impassible from South America (even today there are no roads I know of that lead to Panama from South America)"

It is virually impassible when one allows the jungle to encroach. Evidence in ancient times shows that the whole part of panama had populations that traded with Mexico and South America. We have already hashed this out before.

The ancient Panamians traded via canoe boat, did they not? And, that was during the Terminal Classic Period (between A.D. 800-900), to boot--too late for the Book of Mormon.  But, there is no mention in the Book of Mormon of encroaching jungles on the narrow neck of land.  People who went there and made it through just marched right on in and out again without a struggle.  Hunting expeditions occurred frequently in Jaredite times.  No mention of having to cut down trees and through jungles to get to the land northward or southward through the narrow pass, either in Jaredite times or in Nephite times.  The need to set up fortifications right by the narrow pass to prevent the Lamanites from getting through, something that ultimately failed in the end.  These are huge problems with a Panama model for the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon.

[Rob Osborn]

"Another reason why the Sonoran Desert cannot be considered is because the Nephites built roads and cities, and used cement to build these. We know cement was used in northern Mesoamerica. Many examples have been found, a number of which do date to Book of Mormon times. The same goes for roads, many of which were built of the same kinds of cements used for their buildings. There is zero evidence for this in the Sonoran Desert. And the Pueblo peoples were dependent upon water from snow because of the unreliability of water during the summer months. There is no mention of snow or usage of snow for water in the land northward, in the Book of Mormon."

You should do a little research on ancient ruins of the Sanoran desert. If you did you would note that field researchers and government appointed guides in the later 1700's and 1800' (Joseph Smiths time) described the massive ruins there as being built with concrete and cement. I have been thete and seen for myself their constructs. They used a natural "cement" called "caliche". I have discussed this before at this site- http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55841-the-gadianton-robbers-and-teotihuacan/

[Rob Osborn]

No mention is made that Hagoth was an idiot. The words describing him and his actions are used in the same context as the mighty Jaredites and even with the liahona device.

[Rob Osborn]

The ancient Panamians traded via canoe boat, did they not? And, that was during the Terminal Classic Period (between A.D. 800-900), to boot--too late for the Book of Mormon.  But, there is no mention in the Book of Mormon of encroaching jungles on the narrow neck of land.  People who went there and made it through just marched right on in and out again without a struggle.  Hunting expeditions occurred frequently in Jaredite times.  No mention of having to cut down trees and through jungles to get to the land northward or southward through the narrow pass, either in Jaredite times or in Nephite times.  The need to set up fortifications right by the narrow pass to prevent the Lamanites from getting through, something that ultimately failed in the end.  These are huge problems with a Panama model for the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon.

How can you possibly know if the ancients living in Panama didnt trade by foot also?

[MormonMason]

No mention is made that Hagoth was an idiot. The words describing him and his actions are used in the same context as the mighty Jaredites and even with the liahona device.

No they aren't.  "Curious workmanship" and/or "curious workman" were the terms used for the Jaredites and the liahona, and others.  Hagoth was called an "exceedingly curious man," rather than "curious workman," indicating a difference in etymology of the word curious here.  Please don't engage in root fallacy like a lot of people often do.

 

How can you possibly know if the ancients living in Panama didnt trade by foot also?

The region between Panama and South America is virtually impassible.  It would have been difficult in the extreme to trade in an economically feasible way by foot.  It would have been so difficult that it would not have been successful trade.  Worse, the trading occurred between these regions in the Terminal Classic Period--far too late for Book of Mormon times.

Edited October 2, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

"Another reason why the Sonoran Desert cannot be considered is because the Nephites built roads and cities, and used cement to build these. We know cement was used in northern Mesoamerica. Many examples have been found, a number of which do date to Book of Mormon times. The same goes for roads, many of which were built of the same kinds of cements used for their buildings. There is zero evidence for this in the Sonoran Desert. And the Pueblo peoples were dependent upon water from snow because of the unreliability of water during the summer months. There is no mention of snow or usage of snow for water in the land northward, in the Book of Mormon."

You should do a little research on ancient ruins of the Sanoran desert. If you did you would note that field researchers and government appointed guides in the later 1700's and 1800' (Joseph Smiths time) described the massive ruins there as being built with concrete and cement. I have been thete and seen for myself their constructs. They used a natural "cement" called "caliche". I have discussed this before at this site- http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55841-the-gadianton-robbers-and-teotihuacan/

Where are the roads and "many highways" that were "cast up" between cities? And, where is the snow? If these were Book of Mormon people (again, too late for most of them) and it is known that these people depended upon snow for their water (making it of great importance to the survival of these people), why is snow not mentioned in the Book of Mormon dealing with these people?

Edited October 2, 2013 by MormonMason

[Rob Osborn]

Where are the roads and "many highways" that were "cast up" between cities? And, where is the snow? If these were Book of Mormon people (again, too late for most of them) and it is known that these people depended upon snow for their water (making it of great importance to the survival of these people), why is snow not mentioned in the Book of Mormon dealing with these people?

Snow? Why does it akways come down to this? I lived in Mesa for a few years, it doesnt snow there. Go and look for yourself for the roads or highways. A road or highway can be anything from a dirt path to a paved road of some kind.

I am more intetested in what you think of their usr of cement, something you said they didnt possess. What say ye?

[Rob Osborn]

No they aren't.  "Curious workmanship" and/or "curious workman" were the terms used for the Jaredites and the liahona, and others.  Hagoth was called an "exceedingly curious man," rather than "curious workman," indicating a difference in etymology of the word curious here.  Please don't engage in root fallacy like a lot of people often do.

 

The region between Panama and South America is virtually impassible.  It would have been difficult in the extreme to trade in an economically feasible way by foot.  It would have been so difficult that it would not have been successful trade.  Worse, the trading occurred between these regions in the Terminal Classic Period--far too late for Book of Mormon times.

So you equate "exceedingly curious man" with "idiot". Go figure...

[MormonMason]

So you equate "exceedingly curious man" with "idiot". Go figure...

I nowhere suggested that "exceedingly curious man" is equated with "idiot."  That is your misreading of what I have stated.  Go back and read my posts on the matter in context, not out of context as you are wont to do with written texts.  I define it as meaning odd or strange, which is within the actual etymology of the word.  But, again, neither "curious workman" nor "curious workmanship" were used to describe this man or what he built, anywhere in the Book of Mormon.

[MormonMason]

Snow? Why does it akways come down to this? I lived in Mesa for a few years, it doesnt snow there. Go and look for yourself for the roads or highways. A road or highway can be anything from a dirt path to a paved road of some kind.

I am more intetested in what you think of their usr of cement, something you said they didnt possess. What say ye?

Wrong!  The Pueblo peoples, including the Anasazi, relied on snow for much of their water.  Go and actually read a decent book on the Pueblo and Anasazi peoples, and learn.  I do not care what the modern climate for the region might state for your way of thinking.  We are talking about the past not the present.  The present is irrelevant.

 

And, the Book of Mormon clearly states that the Nephites "cast up" highways.  That has zero to do with a mere dirt path.  The Pueblo people that did make roads made them by cutting rock and digging up dirt and vegetation to clear the topsoil from the bedrock.  They did not "cast up" roads.  The phrase "cast up" suggests construction by heaping up earth and other materials and the roads made from the materials.  Recall that the Jaredites "cast up" heaps of earth to get ore for making metal items.  The peoples in the region you are equating with the Nephites who migrated to the land northward did not "cast up" their roads; they cut them into the ground and rock.

 

Plus, the dating is all wrong.  The building of the structures you mention did not occur until during the Pueblo II period, which ranged from A.D. 950 to A.D. 1100.  Other structures were not even built until well after A.D. 1250, such as the cliff dwellings.  All of these are far, far too late to be applicable to the Book of Mormon.  Got something built from cement from the first century BC to the first century A.D. in that region? If you do, you might get my attention and possibly might be able to wrangle me into a discussion of the use of "cement" among the Pueblo people, or the earlier Anasazi.

Edited October 2, 2013 by MormonMason

[Rob Osborn]

I nowhere suggested that "exceedingly curious man" is equated with "idiot."  That is your misreading of what I have stated.  Go back and read my posts on the matter in context, not out of context as you are wont to do with written texts.  I define it as meaning odd or strange, which is within the actual etymology of the word.  But, again, neither "curious workman" nor "curious workmanship" were used to describe this man or what he built, anywhere in the Book of Mormon.

You said- " Consider that Hagoth had little idea of what he was doing."

Hagoth knew what he was doing. Perhaps the ships captains didnt know too much but Hagoth started a shipping and trade route with ocean worthy ships. Thats no small feat!