Throw Out The Dates, Mayan Mystery

[Rob Osborn]

Wrong!  The Pueblo peoples, including the Anasazi, relied on snow for much of their water.  Go and actually read a decent book on the Pueblo and Anasazi peoples, and learn.  I do not care what the modern climate for the region might state for your way of thinking.  We are talking about the past not the present.  The present is irrelevant.

 

And, the Book of Mormon clearly states that the Nephites "cast up" highways.  That has zero to do with a mere dirt path.  The Pueblo people that did make roads made them by cutting rock and digging up dirt and vegetation to clear the topsoil from the bedrock.  They did not "cast up" roads.  The phrase "cast up" suggests construction by heaping up earth and other materials and the roads made from the materials.  Recall that the Jaredites "cast up" heaps of earth to get ore for making metal items.  The peoples in the region you are equating with the Nephites who migrated to the land northward did not "cast up" their roads; they cut them into the ground and rock.

 

Plus, the dating is all wrong.  The building of the structures you mention did not occur until during the Pueblo II period, which ranged from A.D. 950 to A.D. 1100.  Other structures were not even built until well after A.D. 1250, such as the cliff dwellings.  All of these are far, far too late to be applicable to the Book of Mormon.  Got something built from cement from the first century BC to the first century A.D. in that region? If you do, you might get my attention and possibly might be able to wrangle me into a discussion of the use of "cement" among the Pueblo people, or the earlier Anasazi.

So you admit that they made roads but because they didnt "cast them up" that it cant be them. Thats an extremeley weak position.

You are wrong on the dates also. Only certain structural pieces were dated and again using the controversial methods. Archaeologists agree that the area was inhabitated in the correct time frame of Hagoths ship building.

As to the snow issue, why is it so important that Mormon mention snow? He never really mentions any weather in the entire book. Why does he never mention mud slides, flooding, hail, etc?

Again, all weak arguments.

[cursor]

Its amazing to me that a statement like he made can be so wrong. Perhaps he just didnt proof his statement.

 

Actually, he pretty much reiterated the same via email just the other day. What evidence to you have, Rob, that might suggest that there was any dominant [singular] language or [singular] writing system, at any time, in Mesoamerican history? 

[cursor]

The region between Panama and South America is virtually impassible.  It would have been difficult in the extreme to trade in an economically feasible way by foot.  It would have been so difficult that it would not have been successful trade.  Worse, the trading occurred between these regions in the Terminal Classic Period--far too late for Book of Mormon times.

 

Even today, given modern engineering and construction methods, this is the primary route through Panama: And it virtually ends at Yaviza, Panama (about 35 miles north of the Panamanian border). Go ahead, Google Earth it:   8° 9'19.47"N,  77°41'43.11"W.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/1920x1280/26029625.jpg

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#user=3428435&with_photo_id=26029618&order=date_desc

 

Note that a paved road (one lane each direction) was completed as recently as 2009.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#user=5236232&with_photo_id=46741593&order=date_desc

[Rob Osborn]

Actually, he pretty much reiterated the same via email just the other day. What evidence to you have, Rob, that might suggest that there was any dominant [singular] language or [singular] writing system, at any time, in Mesoamerican history?

Hum...just looking at the evidence left by the Maya and the area of their influence it is extremely safe to say that at the height of their empire they were the dominent culture. This would also mean their family of languages was also the dominant one.

[ksfisher]

Cursor,

 

Could the "casting up" of highways (mentioned above) refer to roads being built up above ground level to avoid seasonal flooding?  Is there any evidence for that anywhere in Mesoamerica?  Or is that reading too much into the word up?

 

 

Webster's 1828:

 

HIGHWA'Y, n. A public road; a way open to all passengers; so called, either because it is a great or public road, or because the earth was raised to form a dry path. Highways open a communication from one city or town to another.

Edited October 2, 2013 by ksfisher

[ksfisher]

Hum...just looking at the evidence left by the Maya and the area of their influence it is extremely safe to say that at the height of their empire they were the dominent culture. This would also mean their family of languages was also the dominant one.

 

I think that the safe thing to say is that in areas that were predominantly Mayan, that Mayan languages were dominant.  But, the Mayans never dominated all of Mesoamerica.

[Rob Osborn]

I think that the safe thing to say is that in areas that were predominantly Mayan, that Mayan languages were dominant.  But, the Mayans never dominated all of Mesoamerica.

Two things- If they were the most dominant culture of mesoamerica at one time then that would also make their language the most dominant. Second, the language "family" woukd relatively be the same and be the dominant family of languages written and spoken.

The statement by Sorenson is highly problematic. In doing so he us assuming that even at the height of the Mayan empire, they were not the dominant culture in the area. What is he smoking?

[ksfisher]

Two things- If they were the most dominant culture of mesoamerica at one time then that would also make their language the most dominant. Second, the language "family" woukd relatively be the same and be the dominant family of languages written and spoken.

The statement by Sorenson is highly problematic. In doing so he us assuming that even at the height of the Mayan empire, they were not the dominant culture in the area. What is he smoking?

 

I've never heard or read of a Mayan Empire.  Cities became dominant in their region for a time, but no one city ruled all.   My impression has always been that they were more Balkanized than the Balkans.

 

The Mesoamerican practice of exacting tribute from subjugated cites would leave the majority of the populace in the same condition as they were under the previous rulers, regardless of what language they or the new rulers spoke.

[Calm]

 

 

Plus, the dating is all wrong.  

Once one assumes that dating techniques are totally screwed up, one is allowed to use whatever one wants for evidence.....makes it much more fun and rewarding....

[Calm]

Hum...just looking at the evidence left by the Maya and the area of their influence it is extremely safe to say that at the height of their empire they were the dominent culture. This would also mean their family of languages was also the dominant one.

So one assumes that the Mayans existed as an empire, thus implying that there language had to be the dominant one in all regions it influenced....

 

And the evidence for this is....?  

 

Because you say so?

 

Not an expert here, but IIRC Aramaic was the dominant language of Judea at the time of Christ, but he didn't live within the borders of the Aramaic Empire.

[cursor]

 just mentioned to my dad that I was having a mild disagreement with another MDDB regarding human movements through Panama. The email I sent him said, 

"I have a fellow on MDDB who insists that Panama is the narrow neck of land for the Book of Mormon, and maintains that in ancient times it represented a regular and busy thoroughfare between the land southward and the land northward. I posted (check out the pics):

Even today, given modern engineering and construction methods, this is the primary route through Panama: And it virtually ends at Yaviza, Panama (about 35 miles north of the Panamanian border). Go ahead, Google Earth it:   8° 9'19.47"N,  77°41'43.11"W.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/1920x1280/26029625.jpg

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#user=3428435&with_photo_id=26029618&order=date_desc

 

Note that a paved road (one lane each direction) was completed as recently as 2009.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#user=5236232&with_photo_id=46741593&order=date_desc"

 

The very brief response from a Mesoamerican anthropologist with 65 years of professional experience (and who, at the age of ninety, released an 826-page work), was:

"What is there to say to such a guy? Nothing. Until a few years ago passage through that isthmus was effectively impossible. Besides all the other reasons why it could not be."

Edited October 2, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

Cursor,

 

Could the "casting up" of highways (mentioned above) refer to roads being built up above ground level to avoid seasonal flooding?  Is there any evidence for that anywhere in Mesoamerica?  Or is that reading too much into the word up?

 

 

Webster's 1828:

 

HIGHWA'Y, n. A public road; a way open to all passengers; so called, either because it is a great or public road, or because the earth was raised to form a dry path. Highways open a communication from one city or town to another.

 

From Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book,

 

One feature of Mesoamerican life that neither had to be invented nor brought from abroad was roads. Any repeated movement of people from one place to another produces a potential path that may become a road with greater use. Sahagún’s informants described for him no fewer than seven types of roads that were distinguished among the Aztecs, ranging from a barely discernible track to “royal roads” that were very smooth and reserved for travel by the elite. Roads were made and used for at least 2,500 years before the Spanish conquest, beginning with the Olmec people at San Lorenzo. Hundreds of miles of them have now been discovered in locations ranging from the state of Zacatecas on the north to Yucatan and Atlantic Guatemala on the south. The consensus view is that they were rarely important for commercial travel but were used mostly for ceremonial purposes. Yet local traffic was frequent. Certain roads, in Yucatan at least, date to the Late Pre-Classic period (100 BC–ad 200).

 

This information sheds light on the mention of roads in the Book of Mormon. Near the time of Christ, “highways [were] cast up, and many roads [were] made” (3 Nephi 6: . 3 Nephi 8:13 refers to “level roads.” The phrasing indicates at least two levels of technological sophistication—highways were “cast up,” while roads were “made.” The most striking roads in the lowland Maya area (less is known for other regions) were “cast up.” The principal sacbe, or highway, at Dzibilchaltun was 66 feet (20 m) wide and up to 7 feet (2 m) high, with edges made of great limestone blocks. Between the limestone edges, coarse fill was leveled with fine gravel and then paved with plaster. This highway ran for some 1.6 miles (2.6 km). Seven such highways led from the site to secondary centers. Such massive construction surely qualifies as “cast up” (see a Maya example in fig. 16.3). The date is approximately the same as when the Nephite record mentions highways. In addition, of course, several sorts of roads were “made,” as enumerated by Sahagún.

 

Mayan sacbe:

https://read.deseretbook.com/epub/books/4474/images/16.3.jpg

Edited October 2, 2013 by cursor

[ksfisher]

 

From Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book,

 

One feature of Mesoamerican life that neither had to be invented nor brought from abroad was roads. Any repeated movement of people from one place to another produces a potential path that may become a road with greater use. Sahagún’s informants described for him no fewer than seven types of roads that were distinguished among the Aztecs, ranging from a barely discernible track to “royal roads” that were very smooth and reserved for travel by the elite.223 Roads were made and used for at least 2,500 years before the Spanish conquest, beginning with the Olmec people at San Lorenzo.224 Hundreds of miles of them have now been discovered in locations ranging from the state of Zacatecas on the north to Yucatan and Atlantic Guatemala on the south. The consensus view is that they were rarely important for commercial travel but were used mostly for ceremonial purposes. Yet local traffic was frequent.225 Certain roads, in Yucatan at least, date to the Late Pre-Classic period (100 BC–ad 200).

 

This information sheds light on the mention of roads in the Book of Mormon. Near the time of Christ, “highways [were] cast up, and many roads [were] made” (3 Nephi 6: . 3 Nephi 8:13 refers to “level roads.” The phrasing indicates at least two levels of technological sophistication—highways were “cast up,” while roads were “made.” The most striking roads in the lowland Maya area (less is known for other regions) were “cast up.” The principal sacbe, or highway, at Dzibilchaltun was 66 feet (20 m) wide and up to 7 feet (2 m) high, with edges made of great limestone blocks. Between the limestone edges, coarse fill was leveled with fine gravel and then paved with plaster. This highway ran for some 1.6 miles (2.6 km). Seven such highways led from the site to secondary centers.227 Such massive construction surely qualifies as “cast up” (see a Maya example in fig. 16.3). The date is approximately the same as when the Nephite record mentions highways. In addition, of course, several sorts of roads were “made,” as enumerated by Sahagún.

 

 

Thank you.  I haven't made it to that part of the book yet (which I am enjoying).

[cursor]

Please note the photo that I just attached to the edited post above.

[ksfisher]

Please note the photo that I just attached to the edited post above.

 

The link goes to the Deseret Bookshelf online reader and asks for a login.

[cursor]

Sorry about that. 

I'll duplicate a version of it here. I hope that DB doesn't send me to jail.  8]

http://www.johnlsorenson.com/media/nephite_roads.jpg

[ksfisher]

Please note the photo that I just attached to the edited post above.

 

Googling sacbe brings up a lot of images.  

[Rob Osborn]

 just mentioned to my dad that I was having a mild disagreement with another MDDB regarding human movements through Panama. The email I sent him said, 

"I have a fellow on MDDB who insists that Panama is the narrow neck of land for the Book of Mormon, and maintains that in ancient times it represented a regular and busy thoroughfare between the land southward and the land northward. I posted (check out the pics):

Even today, given modern engineering and construction methods, this is the primary route through Panama: And it virtually ends at Yaviza, Panama (about 35 miles north of the Panamanian border). Go ahead, Google Earth it:   8° 9'19.47"N,  77°41'43.11"W.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/1920x1280/26029625.jpg

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#user=3428435&with_photo_id=26029618&order=date_desc

 

Note that a paved road (one lane each direction) was completed as recently as 2009.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#user=5236232&with_photo_id=46741593&order=date_desc"

 

The very brief response from a Mesoamerican anthropologist with 65 years of professional experience (and who, at the age of ninety, released an 826-page work), was:

"What is there to say to such a guy? Nothing. Until a few years ago passage through that isthmus was effectively impossible. Besides all the other reasons why it could not be."

And yet the ancient Jaredites, and also, the Nephites in ancient times crossed the oceans in homemade boats/ vessels. They built precise buildings and quarried rock and moved rocka over large areas weighing in the tens of thousands of pounds. Clearing some land for passage would have been nothing for these folks.

Its unbelievable how common sense has seemed to vacate peoples minds. Just because we dont walk to Souh America doesnt mean the ancients didnt either. Let me ask- just how did South America get populated in ancient times? Did they first cross between the two continents by fiit or boat? On top of all that trade goods by the ancients in Panama were from both Mexico and South America.

[cursor]

And yet the ancient Jaredites, and also, the Nephites in ancient times crossed the oceans in homemade boats/ vessels. [homemade is your term] They built precise buildings [what the hell does "precise mean?" How is the construction of buildings NOT precise?]

 

by "and quarried rock and moved rocka over large areas weighing in the tens of thousands of pounds. Clearing some land for passage would have been nothing for these folks."

Its unbelievable how common sense has seemed to vacate peoples minds. Just because we dont walk to Souh America doesnt mean the ancients didnt either. Let me ask- just how did South America get populated in ancient times? Did they first cross between the two continents by fiit or boat? On top of all that trade goods by the ancients in Panama were from both Mexico and South America.

 

So ... since "the ancient Jaredites and also the Nephites in ancient times crossed the oceans in 'homemade boats/vessels'" ... there are NO limits to human migration. They could go wherever they wanted ... at will (or at God's will). There were no natural barriers. Sheesh ... wake up. The narrow neck of land could feasibly be on the moon.

Edited October 2, 2013 by cursor

[cursor]

Its unbelievable how common sense has seemed to vacate peoples minds. 

 

Amen to that, brother.

 

Just because we dont walk to Souh America doesnt mean the ancients didnt either. Let me ask- just how did South America get populated in ancient times? Did they first cross between the two continents by fiit or boat? On top of all that trade goods by the ancients in Panama were from both Mexico and South America.

 

Please allow me to ask you, did they cross "by fiit or by boat" ... or by what. Please feel free to offer substantial references. Thanks.

[MormonMason]

You said- " Consider that Hagoth had little idea of what he was doing."

Hagoth knew what he was doing. Perhaps the ships captains didnt know too much but Hagoth started a shipping and trade route with ocean worthy ships. Thats no small feat!

That doesn't make Hagoth an idiot.  As I wrote before, I never said that he was an idiot, just an exceedingly odd man.  But, had he known the currents more than he did, no ship would have been lost to the Pacific.  He apparently was only knowledgeable concerning the current that took ships and boats up toward the Gulf of California.  He apparently knew nothing about the rare occurences of the changing of the current that would have dragged ships out to the Pacific.  That makes him ignorant at worst, not an idiot.  But again, you just keep taking the words of others and twisting them into something they aren't.  You do the same with the scriptures, too.

[MormonMason]

Hum...just looking at the evidence left by the Maya and the area of their influence it is extremely safe to say that at the height of their empire they were the dominent culture. This would also mean their family of languages was also the dominant one.

What it is obvious that you don't understand, Rob, is that Maya glyphs are representative of at least three underlying languages.  The glyphs look just about the same but the underlying languages differ from place to place.  Some epigraphers describe the differing languages underlying the glyphs as the "tone" of the inscription.  To interpret an inscription, one must first determine the language underlying the glyphs.  Not all inscriptions are written in the same language.  Even among the Maya there was no real, dominant, single language.  You need to educate yourself beyond the sort of claptrap you hypothesize and synthesize for yourself from fragmentary and haphazardly assembled information, combined with words that look alike in symbols and root fallacy in the English text of the Book of Mormon.

Edited October 3, 2013 by MormonMason

[MormonMason]

Once one assumes that dating techniques are totally screwed up, one is allowed to use whatever one wants for evidence.....makes it much more fun and rewarding....

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if we could do that whenever and wherever we feel like it? It would be almost as much bliss as ignorance.

[MormonMason]

So you admit that they made roads but because they didnt "cast them up" that it cant be them. Thats an extremeley weak position.

You are wrong on the dates also. Only certain structural pieces were dated and again using the controversial methods. Archaeologists agree that the area was inhabitated in the correct time frame of Hagoths ship building.

As to the snow issue, why is it so important that Mormon mention snow? He never really mentions any weather in the entire book. Why does he never mention mud slides, flooding, hail, etc?

Again, all weak arguments.

It is hardly a weak position.  We have to go by the text and what it says.  It says that their highways were "cast up."  So, if we do not see such highways we can know with certainty that we are looking in the wrong place.  Mesoamerica has such highways.  The region you are proposing for the landing of Hagoth and the people do not have such roads and highways.

 

Wrong on the dates? Hardly.  The structures are what are used for dating, as were certain other things left behind by those who occupied the structures.  The structures are correctly dated, have been corrected by several methodologies, not the least of which is dendrochronology.  They are way too late to be from Book of Mormon times.  Your argument is not only weak it is toast.  And as to the earlier occupations, certainly there were earlier settlements.  Some go back to pre-Jaredite times.  So what? There were no structures made with cement in those times.  Those came long after Book of Mormon times.

 

Actually, Mormon does mention weather in passing.  He referred to the climate and the fevers that resulted from said climate.  He mentions climate in the singular.  That would indeed be odd if the Book of Mormon took place anywhere in places north of Mexico.  Mormon mentioned the "heat of the day" in the twelfth month in one episode in the Book of Mormon because of its importance to the storyline. He did mention mudslides but did not call them that.  How do you think the several cities ended up buried, covered over with earth so as the hide their iniquities? Sinkholes may have been part of that, but some of the coverings of cities definitely were from mountains.  He mentioned flooding but did not call it that.  But in places where the ground sunk water "came up in the stead thereof."  That's flooding.  We know they knew of hail because of remarks by prophets that would have made zero sense unless there were hail.  He quoted prophecies regarding hail.  Mesoamerica does get hail.  Sometimes it is really bad when it happens.  But snow? Nope.  No snow mentioned at all by Mormon. He states that the climate is hot even on the 12th month of their year.

 

The only person in the Book of Mormon to mention snow was Nephi.  But that was an event that occurred in the Old World and he came from a land that did see snow just about every year.  Not Mormon, though.  Not one single, solitary mention of snow, even when it would have been important to the storyline in a New York setting, and in the case of the Anasazi, if indeed they were Nephites.

Edited October 3, 2013 by MormonMason

[rodheadlee]

Why build a sea going vessel to go from the land of Bountiful by the narrow neck to go to the land northward if that distance was 100-200 miles? Thats ridiculous.

 

 

 

 You  better check the weather before you make that statement. The Gulf of Tehuantepec has a nasty reputation for some really nasty weather. It can come upon you with little warning. We have sat weather so we get a lot bettr info than they got waaaaayy back then.