The Gadianton Robbers And Teotihuacan

[Olavarria]

Mormon 8:12

12)And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.

In Helaman 3, we read the description of a group of people who migrate to a land that:

1)is an "exceedingly great distance" north of Nephite lands

2)a land of "large bodies of water and many rivers"

3)a place where people are expert in the use of cement.

4)a place that underwent deforestation.

5)a place which had people who hailed from south of the isthmus, Nephites and Ammonites.

6)and whose inhabitants "began to cover the face of the whole earth".

From about 200AD to 600 AD the only area in the Americas that possibly matches these six criteria is the city of Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan is:

1)north of the isthmus of Tehuantepec

2)is in the Teotihucan Valley, a side pocket of the Valley of Mexico. The Valley of Mexico was home to Lakes Xaltocan, Texcoco, Xochimilco and Chalco.

3)Teotihuacanos made extensive use of cement.

4)It has been proposed that the destruction of the surrounding forests nessecary for the burning of the lime which went into building Teotihuacan contributed to erosion and desiccation of the region.

5)There was a strong Southern(Mayan) presence at Teotihuacan

6)Teotihuacan influence extened into the Gulf Coast of Mexico, Oaxaca and as far south as Guatemala.

If the narrow neck of land is the strait of Tehuantepec then the only place that fits this description is Teotihuacan. However, Mormon's account seems anachronistic. Helaman ch. 3 does not describe the Teotihuacan of 50BC, it describes the Teotihuacan of 250AD and beyond. It does not describe the Teotihuacan of Helaman's day, but the Teotihuacan of Mormon's day, 400AD. It does not describe what Teotihuacan was like during the days of the actual migration recorded in Helaman 3; it describes what Teotihuacan was like when Mormon was alive and writing.

The ancient Greek historian Xenophon did something similar. Xenophon incorrectly records that Cyrus the Great received and distributed gold darics.The daric did not exist until after the lifetime of Cyrus. The daric began to be used during the reign of Darius; the coin(daric) was named after him. Since the daric was used during Xenphon's time, we can see how this mistake was made. As ancient historians, both Mormon and Xenophon took the conditions of their day and retrojected them into the past.

Mormon takes the time and effort to describe a migration to what would eventually become Teotihuacan, because Teotihuacan was very much on his mind. The Teotihuacanos of Mormon's day were doing what the Gadianton Robbers of Helaman's day were doing; that is: they were usurping power and disrupting the social order.

Gadianton Robber Dates and Influence

At about 245AD, "the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton"(4 Nephi 1:42). "And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic"(4 Nephi 1:46).

By about 326AD, the Gadianton Robbers are among the Lamanites and "infest the land"(Mormon 1:18). By about 350AD, the Gadianton Robbers and the Lamanites are united in war against the Nephites. Nephites forced to enter a "treaty with the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, in which we did get the lands of our inheritance divided"(Mormon 2:26,27).

By 400AD, Moroni writes in Mormon 8:8-9:"And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war. 9)And now, behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none save it be the Lamanites and robbers that do exist upon the face of the land.

Teotihuacan Dates and Influence

"Where these intruders warriors or traders? They may well have been both. By Aztec times in central Mexico there was a special caste of armed merchants called pochteca, who journeyed into distant countries in search of rare manufactures and raw materials not available in the homeland, all of which were destined for the king. From representations of the pochteca god at Teotihuacan, we know that the institution is at least as old as the Early Classic. Thus, Kaminaljuyu may have been a southeasterly outpost of long-distance traders from that great city, established for the purpose of exporting Maya riches for the Teotihuacan throne"(2).

"This was the mighty city that held dominion over large parts of Mexico in the Early Classic, as the center of a military and commercial empire that may have been greater than that of the much later Aztec(2). Shortly after AD 400, the highlands fell under Teotihuacan domination. An intrusive group of central Mexicans from that city might have seized Kaminaljuyu, where they built for themselves a miniature version of their capital. An elite class consisting both of Central Mexican foreigners and of a local nobility with whom they had marriage ties could have ruled over a captive population of largely Mayan descent(2).

"Mesoamerican "empires" such as Teotihuacan's were probably not organized along Roman lines, with total replacement of local administrations by imperial power; rather, they were "hegemonic," in the sense that conquered bureaucracies were pretty much left in place, but controlled through the constant threat of overwhelming military force which could have been unleashed against them at any time. Thus, we can expect a good deal of local cultural continuity even in those regions taken over by the great city; but in the case of the lowland Maya, we shall also see outright interference in dynastic matters, with profound implications for the course of Maya history"(2).

Sources

(1)The Gadianton Robbers in Mormon's Theological History:Their Structural Role and Plausible Identification, by Brant Gardner

(2)The Maya 7th Edition,by Michael Coe. Pg 90-92.

(3) "Tetitla and the Maya Presence at Teotihucan" by Karl A. Taube

Edited October 3, 2011 by Pedro A. Olavarria

[orion88]

The standard picture in the Book of Mormon (and I think other training manuals) tends

to put one site on the Mayan Riviera.

[Rob Osborn]

The major problem i see with any of the ruins in Mexico around this area and just lower are that the nephites who went north went above the land of desolation. They went to a place that didn't have trees, or very few of them. It says that they had to have timber shipped in for their buildings. This is not what we see in the region of mexico where they burned massive amounts of trees to make their lime concrete coverings they put on their buildings. I look more at the pueblo Indians as being this group who went north and built with concrete and few timbers. Their adobe buildings can be defined in Joseph Smith's day, as a type of cementing. The pueblo indians had to have timbers which they used in their building structures such as the roffs shipped in from far away places. This fits the bill well!

Teotihuacan is a massive city area that was built by nothing less than a massive empire, and one that was probably capable of enslaving tens of thousands of bodies for building their massive buildings and pyramids. Even though the dates don't really match up (then again- what dates do match up?) I see Teotihuacan as the city where the king dwelt in Jaredite times and the massive structures (mayan) in meso-america are the later Jaredite buildings from after they destroyed the poisonous snakes. Most of the nephite happenings as recorded in the BoM happened on the South American continent.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

I did a little search and found that the word "cement" as we use it today as a noun to define the actual processed hardened material as building structure was first used in 1834. Of interest is that the nephite word for "cement" was probably a translation of their ancient language into the reformed egyptian and then from their to our day in defining a word in Jospeh Smith's day that best described their ancient translated word of what they defined as a cement type. Cement itself was a not a word until the 14th century. It came from a latin word form meaning "to thicken or harden, curdle."

[Anijen]

It says that they had to have timber shipped in for their buildings.

Please give a reference for this.

I look more at the pueblo Indians as being this group who went north and built with concrete and few timbers. Their adobe buildings can be defined in Joseph Smith's day, as a type of cementing. The pueblo indians had to have timbers which they used in their building structures such as the roffs shipped in from far away places. This fits the bill well!

I am interested in how you feel this "fits the bill well." Could you be a little more specific? Where/what would be the many waters in this area?

Teotihuacan ... Even though the dates don't really match up

But they match up better than the Pueblo. However I can see your point that we are not going to see an exact match.

[ERayR]

The pueblo indians had to have timbers which they used in their building structures such as the roffs shipped in from far away places. This fits the bill well!

I do not see where they had any timber "shipped" in. It is more a frugal use of what they had. Remember back then it was a bit difficult to load a 16 wheeler and send it out. Freeways were quite scarce. Due to the bulk and weight shipping timber would be very difficult.

[Rob Osborn]

Please give a reference for this.

10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of ^ashipping.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

I am interested in how you feel this "fits the bill well." Could you be a little more specific? Where/what would be the many waters in this area?

Because I discount the age which geologists and archaeologists use, I believe the flood waters were still coming off the land around this time. Arizona region shows many instances of where large bodies of water possessed the land. All that is in debate is when those waters were there. Legends from native Americans have them being there at the time when those events happened.

But they match up better than the Pueblo. However I can see your point that we are not going to see an exact match.

Not necessarily, Casa Grande existed, they say, for around a 1000 year and was abandoned in the 12 century. Casa Grande and surrounding structures were built with a natural cement found in the region.

[ERayR]

shipping.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

Please give a reference we can look up. Where in the BOM is this found?

[Anijen]

Because I discount the age which geologists and archaeologists use, I believe the flood waters were still coming off the land around this time.

Thanks for your answers. I apologize I am really interested in your theories. Can you tell me what you believe the dates were (approximation)? Do you mean Noah's flood here? So if I read you correct you feel the flood waters were receding about the time of the Jaredites in or around Chaco Canyon, is that correct (2500-2200 BC)? That they shipped in wood from other areas North of them on these receding flood waters, but about 20 BC (time of shipping wood)? Do you think they might have used Gila, Salt, or Colorado rivers? The Pueblos, Hopi's or Anasazi (name your tribe) originated about the 1200 years ago about 2000 years too late for Jaredites, but not enough time for the Nephites (600 BC-421 AD).

I want you to know that I am not being critical of your theory I just want to understand it better. I have been writing a book for some time now on plausible and traditional theories for the Book of Mormon geography settings and I do not here much about the Hopi connection. In fact if you give me some great details and specifics I can use for my book I would probably add it in (credited to you of course). If I sound critical it is only me fishing for responses to concerns that might be problematic.

Arizona region shows many instances of where large bodies of water possessed the land. All that is in debate is when those waters were there. Legends from native Americans have them being there at the time when those events happened.

I was under the impression that the water timeline has pretty much been settled by geologist, why would you feel they are wrong? Do you know the source of these legends? I mean were they recorded by the Spanish Franciscans or later recorded (oral history) of a chief etc. I have most of all primary sources from the Spanish missionaries but I am lacking much from the Indian side and have been relying on Oral histories. Edited October 3, 2011 by Anijen

[Rob Osborn]

Please give a reference we can look up. Where in the BOM is this found?

10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of ^ashipping.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 3:10 - 11)

[ERayR]

10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of ^ashipping.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 3:10 - 11)

Thank you.

[Rob Osborn]

Thanks for your answers. I apologize I am really interested in your theories. Can you tell me what you believe the dates were (approximation)? Do you mean Noah's flood here? So if I read you correct you feel the flood waters were receding about the time of the Jaredites in or around Chaco Canyon, is that correct (2500-2200 BC)? That they shipped in wood from other areas North of them on these receding flood waters, but about 20 BC (time of shipping wood)? Do you think they might have used Gila, Salt, or Colorado rivers? The Pueblos, Hopi's or Anasazi (name your tribe) originated about the 1200 years ago about 2000 years too late for Jaredites, but not enough time for the Nephites (600 BC-421 AD).

I want you to know that I am not being critical of your theory I just want to understand it better. I have been writing a book for some time now on plausible and traditional theories for the Book of Mormon geography settings and I do not here much about the Hopi connection. In fact if you give me some great details and specifics I can use for my book I would probably add it in (credited to you of course). If I sound critical it is only me fishing for responses to concerns that might be problematic.

I was under the impression that the water timeline has pretty much been settled by geologist, why would you feel they are wrong? Do you know the source of these legends? I mean were they recorded by the Spanish Franciscans or later recorded (oral history) of a chief etc. I have most of all primary sources from the Spanish missionaries but I am lacking much from the Indian side and have been relying on Oral histories.

The first thing I do, and it is unorthodox, is to basically throw out most of the dates given by geologists and archaeologists. We all are aware of the many debates regarding the dating of things. I don't really wish to discuss the myriad of differences here. I have read accounts of legends of large bodies of water occupying parts of the North American continent within the last few thousand years.

[Cobalt-70]

I think the most obvious place referred to in Helaman 3:4 is the area where Joseph Smith lived--the "finger lakes" region of Western New York, near the Great Lakes. I think it's a textual stretch to say it was in Central America. The region that was "rendered desolate and without timber" is the Great Plains and the Southwestern desert areas. The "cement" referred to is probably adobe. This seems to be a much more natural construction of the text, and one that would have immediately come to mind to anyone in Smith's era who was somewhat familiar with North American geography.

[Robert F. Smith]

shipping.

11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

Casa Grande existed, they say, for around a 1000 year and was abandoned in the 12 century. Casa Grande and surrounding structures were built with a natural cement found in the region.

Correct. The Hohokam built Casa Grande and other structures of caliche, a natural cement consisting of clay, sand, and calcium carbonate (lime), but Casa Grande itself was built around 1350 A.D. See http://www.nps.gov/cagr/forkids/the-casa-grande.htm

(with photo of the 4-story, 11-room bldg).

However, this cement was used for thousands of years among the people of Mesoamerica as well, although their method consisted of large scale gathering of wood and limestone, which they burned together to obtain a pure limestone stucco which would harden like rock. You can see the process accurately depicted in the film Apocalypto. They used that stucco to cover their temples and houses. See http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=827

Edited October 4, 2011 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I think the most obvious place referred to in Helaman 3:4 is the area where Joseph Smith lived--the "finger lakes" region of Western New York, near the Great Lakes. I think it's a textual stretch to say it was in Central America. The region that was "rendered desolate and without timber" is the Great Plains and the Southwestern desert areas. The "cement" referred to is probably adobe. This seems to be a much more natural construction of the text, and one that would have immediately come to mind to anyone in Smith's era who was somewhat familiar with North American geography.

Adobe (dried mud) and cement could not be confused with each other in Joseph's day. Cement (a Latin word) had been used for thousands of years by Joseph's time, and the basic ingredient was calcium carbonate (limestone). The Romans were particularly good at using it in all major construction, which is why many Roman structures still stand. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement .

[Rob Osborn]

Adobe (dried mud) and cement could not be confused with each other in Joseph's day. Cement (a Latin word) had been used for thousands of years by Joseph's time, and the basic ingredient was calcium carbonate (limestone). The Romans were particularly good at using it in all major construction, which is why many Roman structures still stand. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement .

I think one area that needs addressed though is what word/words did the nephites use to describe what they were referring to? If they were using some kind of reformed egyptian in recording the BoM plates, what word or words were they using to describe the building process?

[Cobalt-70]

Adobe (dried mud) and cement could not be confused with each other in Joseph's day. Cement (a Latin word) had been used for thousands of years by Joseph's time, and the basic ingredient was calcium carbonate (limestone). The Romans were particularly good at using it in all major construction, which is why many Roman structures still stand. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cement .

From what I understand, people forgot how to make Roman cement during the Middle Ages. What was left in Smith's day were things like mortar and stucco. Adobe structures look like cement, and I don't think anybody in Smith's day had done chemical analyses to determine whether or not adobe contained calcium carbonate. They just had reports of these vast "cement-like" buildings in the Southwest. The hardness and durability of these structures might have seemed rather advanced, given 1829 Western technology, when viable construction cements had only been around for a couple of decades.

[Rob Osborn]

How can we be sure of how the word "cement" has been used? For instance, explorers finding the ruins of Casa Grande had this to say-

Lieut. Juan Mateo Mange reports these ruins in 1697 as follows: "We continued west, and after going four leagues more arrived at noon at the Casas Grandes, within which mass was said by Padre Kino, who had not yet breakfasted. One of these houses is a large edifice whose principal room in the middle of four stories, those adjoining its four sides being of three. Its walls are two varas thick, are made of strong cement and clay, and are so smooth on the inside that they resemble planed boards, and so polished that they shine like Pueblo pottery. The angles of the windows which are square, are very true and without jambs or crown pieces of wood and they must have made them without frame or mold. The same is true of the doors, altho they are narrow, by which we know them to be the work of Indians. It is 36 paces long and 21 wide. It is well built and has foundations. An arquebus shot away are seen twelve other half fallen houses also having thick walls and all having their roofs burned."

and here-

The next authentic narrative comes from the Rudo Ensayo which says, "Pursuing the same course for about twenty leagues from the junction of the San Pedro and the Gila leaves on the left at the distance of one league, the Casa Grande * * * This great house is four stories high still standing, with a roof made of beams of cedar or tlascal and with most solid walls of a material that looks like the best cement. It is divided into many halls and rooms and might be a traveling court. * * * The Pima tell of another house more strangely planned and built, which is to be found much further up the river. It is in the style of a labyrinth, the plan of which as it is designed by the Indians on the sand, is something like the cut on the margin."

and here-

Father Pedro Font examined the Casa Grande in 1775, and describes the main building as ‘‘an oblong square, facing to the cardinal points of the compass. The exterior wall extends from north to south four hundred and twenty feet, and from east to west two hundred and sixty feet The interior of the house consists of five halls, the three middle ones being of one size, and the extreme ones longer. The three middle ones are twenty-six feet in length from north to south, and ten feet in breadth from east to west, with walls six feet thick. The two extreme ones measure twelve feet from north to south, and thirty-eight feet from east to west.’’ At present the ruins are about two stories high, and are rapidly crumbling away. The walls are composed of a material looking like concrete or grout. The dimensions of the ruin still standing are about 50 by 30 feet. It is divided into many small rooms, and plastered with a reddish cement. The walls still show small round holes where the rafters had entered, charred pieces of which are yet found imbedded in the adobe.

[LeSellers]

How can we be sure of how the word "cement" has been used? For instance, explorers finding the ruins of Casa Grande had this to say-

Lieut. Juan Mateo Mange reports these ruins in 1697 as follows: ..."

and here-

The next authentic narrative comes from the Rudo Ensayo which says, "Pursuing the same course ...."

and here-

Father Pedro Font examined the Casa Grande in 1775, and describes the main building as ‘‘an oblong square, ...

You can't trust those Spaniards: they called obsidian-edged clubs "swords".

Lehi

[Rob Osborn]

Oh, BTW,

the author from the above quotes is named

HIRAM C. HODGE.

His book was made form notes he made traveling in the area in 1874-1876. This is what he personally had to say about what the ruins were made of-

<a name="d20e2453">The best preserved building in the valley of the Gila has been designated the “Casa Grande,”—Great House—though in size it is much inferior to many others, but being better preserved is so called. The Casa Grande ruin is forty-five feet wide, and sixty-three feet long, and the walls now standing are nearly forty feet high, or, four and a half stories. The walls are of concrete, over five feet thick at the base, and the tiers of concrete are thirty inches each in height.

[Olavarria]

Mormon 8:12

12)And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.

In Helaman 3, we read the description of a group of people who migrate to a land that:

1)is an "exceedingly great distance" north of Nephite lands

2)a land of "large bodies of water and many rivers"

3)a place where people are expert in the use of cement.

4)a place that underwent deforestation.

5)a place which had people who hailed from south of the isthmus, Nephites and Ammonites.

6)and whose inhabitants "began to cover the face of the whole earth".

From about 200AD to 600 AD the only area in the Americas that possibly matches these six criteria is the city of Teotihuacan. Teotihuacan is:

1)north of the isthmus of Tehuantepec

2)is in the Teotihucan Valley, a side pocket of the Valley of Mexico. The Valley of Mexico was home to Lakes Xaltocan, Texcoco, Xochimilco and Chalco.

3)Teotihuacanos made extensive use of cement.

4)It has been proposed that the destruction of the surrounding forests nessecary for the burning of the lime which went into building Teotihuacan contributed to erosion and desiccation of the region.

5)There was a strong Southern(Mayan) presence at Teotihuacan

6)Teotihuacan influence extened into the Gulf Coast of Mexico, Oaxaca and as far south as Guatemala.

If the narrow neck of land is the strait of Tehuantepec then the only place that fits this description is Teotihuacan. However, Mormon's account seems anachronistic. Helaman ch. 3 does not describe the Teotihuacan of 50BC, it describes the Teotihuacan of 250AD and beyond. It does not describe the Teotihuacan of Helaman's day, but the Teotihuacan of Mormon's day, 400AD. It does not describe what Teotihuacan was like during the days of the actual migration recorded in Helaman 3; it describes what Teotihuacan was like when Mormon was alive and writing.

The ancient Greek historian Xenophon did something similar. Xenophon incorrectly records that Cyrus the Great received and distributed gold darics.The daric did not exist until after the lifetime of Cyrus. The daric began to be used during the reign of Darius; the coin(daric) was named after him. Since the daric was used during Xenphon's time, we can see how this mistake was made. As ancient historians, both Mormon and Xenophon took the conditions of their day and retrojected them into the past.

Mormon takes the time and effort to describe a migration to what would eventually become Teotihuacan, because Teotihuacan was very much on his mind. The Teotihuacanos of Mormon's day were doing what the Gadianton Robbers of Helaman's day were doing; that is: they were usurping power and disrupting the social order.

Gadianton Robber Dates and Influence

At about 245AD, "the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton"(4 Nephi 1:42). "And it came to pass that the robbers of Gadianton did spread over all the face of the land; and there were none that were righteous save it were the disciples of Jesus. And gold and silver did they lay up in store in abundance, and did traffic in all manner of traffic"(4 Nephi 1:46).

By about 326AD, the Gadianton Robbers are among the Lamanites and "infest the land"(Mormon 1:18). By about 350AD, the Gadianton Robbers and the Lamanites are united in war against the Nephites. Nephites forced to enter a "treaty with the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, in which we did get the lands of our inheritance divided"(Mormon 2:26,27).

By 400AD, Moroni writes in Mormon 8:8-9:"And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war. 9)And now, behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none save it be the Lamanites and robbers that do exist upon the face of the land.

Teotihuacan Dates and Influence

"Where these intruders warriors or traders? They may well have been both. By Aztec times in central Mexico there was a special caste of armed merchants called pochteca, who journeyed into distant countries in search of rare manufactures and raw materials not available in the homeland, all of which were destined for the king. From representations of the pochteca god at Teotihuacan, we know that the institution is at least as old as the Early Classic. Thus, Kaminaljuyu may have been a southeasterly outpost of long-distance traders from that great city, established for the purpose of exporting Maya riches for the Teotihuacan throne"(2).

"This was the mighty city that held dominion over large parts of Mexico in the Early Classic, as the center of a military and commercial empire that may have been greater than that of the much later Aztec(2). Shortly after AD 400, the highlands fell under Teotihuacan domination. An intrusive group of central Mexicans from that city might have seized Kaminaljuyu, where they built for themselves a miniature version of their capital. An elite class consisting both of Central Mexican foreigners and of a local nobility with whom they had marriage ties could have ruled over a captive population of largely Mayan descent(2).

"Mesoamerican "empires" such as Teotihuacan's were probably not organized along Roman lines, with total replacement of local administrations by imperial power; rather, they were "hegemonic," in the sense that conquered bureaucracies were pretty much left in place, but controlled through the constant threat of overwhelming military force which could have been unleashed against them at any time. Thus, we can expect a good deal of local cultural continuity even in those regions taken over by the great city; but in the case of the lowland Maya, we shall also see outright interference in dynastic matters, with profound implications for the course of Maya history"(2).

Sources

(1)The Gadianton Robbers in Mormon's Theological History:Their Structural Role and Plausible Identification, by Brant Gardner

(2)The Maya 7th Edition,by Michael Coe. Pg 90-92.

(3) "Tetitla and the Maya Presence at Teotihucan" by Karl A. Taube

[Olavarria]

Edited October 6, 2011 by Pedro A. Olavarria

[Rob Osborn]

I recently read a paper by someone at BYU that stated that the word "adobe" was not in the websters 1830 dictionary and that it wasn't in usage int he english language in America until the later 1830's

[LeSellers]

I recently read a paper by someone at BYU that stated that the word "adobe" was not in the websters 1830 dictionary and that it wasn't in usage int he english language in America until the later 1830's

It's not in the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English Language.

Lehi

[Rob Osborn]

It's not in the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English Language.

Lehi

The word "cement" according tot he dictionary of that time meant- To unite by the application of glutinous substances, by mortar which hardens, or other matter that produces cohesion of bodies.

Interesting that according to that dictionary, the word "concrete" can mean anything from gold to soap- aything that congeals or thickens such as even the concretion of blood!

Oh my, how words change over a short amount of time- amazing!

The construction and structure of "adobe" very much fits the exact definition of "concrete" as used in Joseph Smith's day!

Edited October 11, 2011 by Rob Osborn