What Are The Critical Arguments For The Production Of The Plates?

[Freedom]

 

The Book of Mormon would be no different. He tried to sell the copyright for money.

Since you are trying to present yourself as an expert on the matter, why don't you provide some details of this accusation.

[iriemon]

Seriously?  Man lay off the kool-aid

 

I hope it doesn't seem like you're being ganged up on. You've got to be brave to come onto this forum with a contrary argument.

 

 

Naw, don't feel like that at all. I'm here at my own choosing. As for the Kool-aid, those of us who can see all of the evidence, and don't see anything to support Joseph Smiths claims, wonder what kool-aid apologists must be drinking?

[iriemon]

Since you are trying to present yourself as an expert on the matter, why don't you provide some details of this accusation.

 

About Joseph Smith trying to sell the copyright? You really need a reference for that?

 

Never said I was an expert. Just following facts, evidence and common sense.

[Freedom]

About Joseph Smith trying to sell the copyright? You really need a reference for that?

 

Never said I was an expert. Just following facts, evidence and common sense.

So you have no evidence? Just poor arguments from non-historians without professional training in interpreting historical documents? They don't happen to be critics of the church do they? Hmmm.

[bdouglas]

You might read them someday. Then you would agree that The LOTR books are FAR more complex than that BOM is. What they both have in common is, they both describe civilizations for which there is NO historical evidence. The argument that Joseph Smith could not have written the BOM based on his age, education ability etc, is an old arguement that church members are conditioned to repeat when confronted with this question. (Much like the ol', women needed to marry someone because all of the men were killed on the trek to Utah, that's why polygamy was needed)  I've seen it hundreds of times. However, It's simply not true. Of course he could have. He had Oliver Cowdrey, and others around him. There are plenty of explanations, including Spaulding etc. As I mentioned, by that logic, then the Quran is actually more inspired, because Muhammad had less education than Joseph Smith did, and his religion has spread into a world super power.  Joseph Smith read frequently from the bible, so the King James type language was be familiar to him. He was known to tell amazing stories and tall tales as a kid. All of these could be easily used to produce the book.

 

I read LOTR in high school. I don't see it as a fair comparison at all. And the Koran is an inspirational book, it is not a history. I regard it as inspired, but still very different in important ways from the BOM (this is not to mention the differences in composition, one taking 20 years, and the other 90 days).

 

I do agree that two people can look at all of the evidence, everything there is about this question, and one say, "The only explanation for the BOM is the one JS gave," and the other say, "It's a fraud, a book JS made up." In the end it's a choice, and I personally have made the choice to believe, not only because of witnesses I received as a missionary but also because the empirical evidence--once you have removed the bias against supernatural events--seems very strongly weighted in favor of the explanation JS gave. But I have a very good brother who has come to opposite conclusion, a brother I am very close to.

Edited September 9, 2013 by bdouglas

[bdouglas]

About Joseph Smith trying to sell the copyright? You really need a reference for that?

 

Never said I was an expert. Just following facts, evidence and common sense.

JS did try to sell the copyright, he sent Oliver Cowdery and someone else to Canada to sell the copyright to the BOM so they would have money to publish it. But this was hardly a money-making scheme. He needed 5k to publish the book and he thought he had a revelation to send Cowdery and the other guy (I've forgotten who this was) to Toronto to sell the copyright. It turned out to be a dead-end. ("Some revelations are of man: some are of God: and some are of the devil" David Whitmer recalled JS as saying when asked why this revelation failed). In the end Martin Harris mortgaged his farm, and this is where the money came to publish.

 

JS never tried to make money off the BOM--at least that I'm aware of.

Edited September 9, 2013 by bdouglas

[iriemon]

JS did try to sell the copyright, he sent Oliver Cowdery and someone else to Canada to sell the copyright to the BOM so they would have money to publish it. But this was hardly a money-making scheme. He needed 5k to publish the book and he thought he had a revelation to send Cowdery and the other guy (I've forgotten who this was) to Toronto to sell the copyright. It turned out to be a dead-end. ("Some revelations are of man: some are of God: and some are of the devil" David Whitmer recalled JS as saying when asked why this revelation failed). In the end Martin Harris mortgaged his farm, and this is where the money came to publish.

 

JS never made a penny off the BOM--at least that I'm aware of.

 

Hiram Page was the man your thinking of. A quote below is from him, regarding Joseph Smiths reason for selling the copyright. The fact that he was trying to keep it a secret from Martin Harris is even more troubling, considering it was him who put up money for it as well. If Martin Harris was one of the supposed 3 witnesses, why then did Joseph Smith try to back door him, and keep the money for himself.

 

His intention sure was to make money: 

 

 

 

"Joseph heard that there was a chance to sell a copy right in Canada for any useful book that was used in the States. Joseph thought this would be a good opportunity to get a hand on a sum of money which was to be (after the expenses were taken out) for the exclusive benefit of the Smith family and was to be at the disposal of Joseph. Accordingly Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Knight, Hiram Page and Joseph Stoel were chosen (as I understand by revelation) to do the business; we were living from 30 to 100 miles apart. The necessary preparation was made (by them) in a sly manner so as to keep Martin Harris from drawing a share of the money. It was told me we were to go by revelation, but when we had assembled at Father Smiths, there was no revelation for us to go, but we were all anxious to get a revelation to go; and when it came we were to go to Kingston where we were to sell if they would not harden their hearts; but when we got there, there was no purchaser, neither were they authorized at Kingston to buy rights for the Provence; but little York was the place where such business had to be done. We were to get 8,000 dollars. We were treated with the best of respect by all we met with in Kingston - by the above we may learn how a revelation may be received and the person receiving it not be benefitted." (Letter, Hiram Page to William McLellin, Fishingriver, Feb. 2, 1848; Community of Christ Archives, spelling and punctuation standardized by Eldon Watson)

 

 

As far as I am aware also, he did not make money off of the Book of Mormon itself, but he did make alot of money over the years, over the religion he started based on the book. Not to mention the power he gained as well. (Mayor of a city, head of the Navuoo legion, etc)

[bdouglas]

Hiram Page was the man your thinking of. A quote below is from him, regarding Joseph Smiths reason for selling the copyright. The fact that he was trying to keep it a secret from Martin Harris is even more troubling, considering it was him who put up money for it as well. If Martin Harris was one of the supposed 3 witnesses, why then did Joseph Smith try to back door him, and keep the money for himself.

 

His intention sure was to make money: 

 

 

 

"Joseph heard that there was a chance to sell a copy right in Canada for any useful book that was used in the States. Joseph thought this would be a good opportunity to get a hand on a sum of money which was to be (after the expenses were taken out) for the exclusive benefit of the Smith family and was to be at the disposal of Joseph. Accordingly Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Knight, Hiram Page and Joseph Stoel were chosen (as I understand by revelation) to do the business; we were living from 30 to 100 miles apart. The necessary preparation was made (by them) in a sly manner so as to keep Martin Harris from drawing a share of the money. It was told me we were to go by revelation, but when we had assembled at Father Smiths, there was no revelation for us to go, but we were all anxious to get a revelation to go; and when it came we were to go to Kingston where we were to sell if they would not harden their hearts; but when we got there, there was no purchaser, neither were they authorized at Kingston to buy rights for the Provence; but little York was the place where such business had to be done. We were to get 8,000 dollars. We were treated with the best of respect by all we met with in Kingston - by the above we may learn how a revelation may be received and the person receiving it not be benefitted." (Letter, Hiram Page to William McLellin, Fishingriver, Feb. 2, 1848; Community of Christ Archives, spelling and punctuation standardized by Eldon Watson)

 

 

As far as I am aware also, he did not make money off of the Book of Mormon itself, but he did make alot of money over the years, over the religion he started based on the book. Not to mention the power he gained as well. (Mayor of a city, head of the Navuoo legion, etc)

 

I'm not aware of this Hiram Page quote. I will have to look into it and get back to you on it. In the meantime maybe you can provide me the source on the quote, its provenance.

 

As for making money--I don't think JS ever made any money during his life. If he had something of value, whether it was a ham or a shovel, he gave it away immediately he found somebody who needed it more than he did. He was employed at one time as a store-keeper--in Kirtland, I think, at the dry goods store set up by the united order cooperative (I'm not clear on the details here). But the store failed because if somebody came in and needed something but didn't have any money to pay, Joseph just gave the stuff away. He really does not appear to have had the greedy kind of character you are ascribing to him. He might be accused of some character failings but I don't think greed is one of them. The only houses he ever had were (1) the house he bought from Isaac Hale when he married Emma, and (2) the Mansion House in Nauvoo, which was not really his but the church's. And then he and Emma only occupied a part of it, I think there were other saints who lived in it as well. This, I think, was a sore spot for Emma, who always had to live as a guest in other peoples homes, or the one time she had her own home, she had to share it with others.

Edited September 9, 2013 by bdouglas

[iriemon]

I read LOTR in high school. I don't see it as a fair comparison at all. And the Koran is an inspirational book, it is not a history. I regard it as inspired, but still very different in important ways from the BOM (this is not to mention the differences in composition, one taking 20 years, and the other 90 days).

 

I do agree that two people can look at all of the evidence, everything there is about this question, and one say, "The only explanation for the BOM is the one JS gave," and the other say, "It's a fraud, a book JS made up." In the end it's a choice, and I personally have made the choice to believe, not only because of witnesses I received as a missionary but also because the empirical evidence--once you have removed the bias against supernatural events--seems very strongly weighted in favor of the explanation JS gave. But I have a very good brother who has come to opposite conclusion, a brother I am very close to.

 

The "Translation" did not take 90 days. (In fact, can it be called a "Translation" if the plates were never in the room, and the text supposedly came from a stone) Look at the timeline again. There are documented gaps in the process, and it took well over a year. Plenty of time. And if you factor in that he had mentioned it years earlier, it seems even more plausable. The BOM had never been shown to be history either. Empirical evidence?? Strongly weighted in favor of JS explanation? IF there is empirical physical evidence, none has shown up yet.

[bdouglas]

The "Translation" did not take 90 days. (In fact, can it be called a "Translation" if the plates were never in the room, and the text supposedly came from a stone) Look at the timeline again. There are documented gaps in the process, and it took well over a year. Plenty of time. And if you factor in that he had mentioned it years earlier, it seems even more plausable. The BOM had never been shown to be history either. Empirical evidence?? Strongly weighted in favor of JS explanation? IF there is empirical physical evidence, none has shown up yet.

 

He started the translation with Martin Harris, which was interrupted when the 116 pages were lost; the translation was then picked up again when Oliver Cowdery came and was concluded some 90 days later. I admit I am not aware of the details of this timeline but the fact is the production of this book was accomplished very quickly. It is interesting to me that during this time, or after the 116 pages were lost, he had to attend to his farming. Aside from Joseph Knight bringing a barrel of mackerel or something like that, he had to feed both himself and Emma, he had to provide a living for his family, also deal with Emma's miscarriage and subsequent near-fatal illness and the fallout from the lost pages.

 

As for "empirical evidence" for the BOM, I admit that you have to have eyes to see, ears to hear; and if not, you will be blind and deaf to these evidences. Personally, I see far more evidence for the authenticity of the BOM than I do against it. Leaving aside any evidence (or non-evidence) in the Americas, if you just take 1 Nephi, and 2 Nephi up to the point they arrive in the new world (if this is indeed where they landed, since we don't really know)--well, 1 and 2 Nephi are incredible productions, unlike anything else outside of the Bible. If the BOM was in fact written by Solomon Spaulding--well, what else did Mr. Spaulding produce? Because I would like to see it!

 

But none of this really matters--I mean nothing I can say will persuade you, and nothing you say will persuade me. So why don't we shake hands and part friends? I should probably go to bed. I have to work tomorrow.

Edited September 9, 2013 by bdouglas

[Calm]

 he thought he had a revelation to send Cowdery and the other guy (I've forgotten who this was) to Toronto to sell the copyright. It turned out to be a dead-end. ("Some revelations are of man: some are of God: and some are of the devil" David Whitmer recalled JS as saying when asked why this revelation failed). 

 

 

 

The primary evidence supporting the negative aspects of the Canadian Mission story come from David Whitmer, who was not a participant in the event, and who had left the church many years before. With the discovery of the Hiram Page letter of 1848 showing that the actual participants involved in the trip felt that Joseph Smith delivered an accurate revelation of what would transpire on the Mission, and in fact even found the event uplifting rather than negative, it is evident that no individual contemporary to the event felt that this represented a false prophecy by Joseph Smith. What we do see is excellent evidence in fulfillment of the teachings of Deuteronomy 12 and 18 that Joseph Smith was perceived as a true prophet of God by those involved in the Mission to Canada in early 1830.

 

 

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright

[MormonMason]

 

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright

 

To add:  The manuscript of the Canadian copyright revelation has been located and now is published in the Joseph Smith Papers Project. (I do not recall the volume at the moment, and I have no way to verify due to the fact that my volumes are nowhere near to me, but it is in the Revelations and Translations series).  A careful read clearly shows that conditions to fulfillment were attached.  In any case, the revelation book pages containing the text of the revelation can be read here:

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-circa-early-1830?dm=image-and-text&zm=zoom-inner&tm=expanded&p=1&s=undefined&sm=none

[MormonMason]

The "Translation" did not take 90 days. (In fact, can it be called a "Translation" if the plates were never in the room, and the text supposedly came from a stone) Look at the timeline again. There are documented gaps in the process, and it took well over a year. Plenty of time. And if you factor in that he had mentioned it years earlier, it seems even more plausable. The BOM had never been shown to be history either. Empirical evidence?? Strongly weighted in favor of JS explanation? IF there is empirical physical evidence, none has shown up yet.

Ummm, no.  You are talking about the 116 lost pages.  What we have now, with the exception of a couple pages of manuscript, all was done in the space of less than 90 days.  No empirical evidence? Maybe not in the ground in the Americas.  But, evidence has been found on the Arabian peninsula.

 

There is also internal evidence of the underlying structure of the text that shows Semitic influence.  How about word and phrase equivalents that did not exist in Hebrew but did exist in Egyptian? Examples are phrases such as "and so forth", "or, in other words", and "adieu"?

 

How about the presence in the Book of Mormon of the very Egyptian idea of God being a heavenly gatekeeper? (Compare 2 Nephi 9:41 with one of the pyramid texts of Teti). I quote an English translation of part of that text from a readily available source:

 

Stand at the gates that bar the common people!  The gatekeeper comes out to you, He grasps your hand, takes you into heaven...

 

(As cited from Oakes and Gahlin, Ancient Egypt: An Illustrated Reference to the Myths, Religions, Pyramids and Temples of the Land of the Pharaohs [2003, New York:  Barnes and Noble], 53).

 

It is well known from Egyptian texts that divine beings guard gates and are gatekeepers.  That is not an idea Joseph Smith would have gotten from the Bible.

 

What about genuine Egyptian and Egyptian-derived names in the Book of Mormon before people could actually read Egyptian? Names such as Ani, Anti, Paanchi, Parhoron/Pahoran, Korihor, Nephi/Nefi (Nefi (equivalent to Hebrew transliteration Nephi) actually occurs at the end of a compound name in a list of Egyptian names and genealogies I read), etc?

 

How about Irreantum? Did you know that Egyptians sometimes used name-phrases rather than single-word names? Did you know that Egyptian phonemes and words actually match up with the word Irreantum, in the grammatically correct order and meaning substantially what Nephi interprets it to mean? Ir r ntw m is Late Egyptian for "more than all bodies of water."  Nephi's statement that it is interpreted as meaning "many waters" is quite good a connection.

 

Ir r = more than (also sometimes spelled jrrj in European Egyptologists' transliteration)

ntw = bodies of water

m = (very rarely but also listed in the latest Egyptian lexicon of Egyptian from the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period (and later) as also carrying the meaning of "all")

 

Where would Joseph Smith have gotten this stuff? What are the odds of his being able to come up with all this stuff by sheer accident when we know full well he could not read Egyptian on his own? Believe it or not, there actually is more out there that a great many do not even know anything about at the present time.  But few do.

[Storm Rider]

I don't think the testimonies of the witnesses are as ironclad as you would like to believe.

Really? I would like to hear of another similar situation where men, once supportive and then antagonistic, never deny the truths they knew. Critics like to claim LDS have to be very gullible to believe the story. Critics have to be even more gullible to ignore and disbelieve the evidence.

Cons only work when the group is united. Break them apart and they tell the true story. This never happened with the BM.

[Storm Rider]

The "Translation" did not take 90 days. (In fact, can it be called a "Translation" if the plates were never in the room, and the text supposedly came from a stone) Look at the timeline again. There are documented gaps in the process, and it took well over a year. Plenty of time. And if you factor in that he had mentioned it years earlier, it seems even more plausable. The BOM had never been shown to be history either. Empirical evidence?? Strongly weighted in favor of JS explanation? IF there is empirical physical evidence, none has shown up yet.

Oh, Lordy. How long have you been drinking that swill? A blind man trying to lead others during the light of day is a tough proposition. You need to do some more research before trying to pass that off as serious criticism here.

[prismsplay]

I don't think the testimonies of the witnesses are as ironclad as you would like to believe.

 

They are as ironclad as anything can be, because their testimonies ARE their never-denied printed testimonies, while the attempts to undermine those testimonies are based on 2nd or 3rd hand accounts that rely on faulty memories and persons of questionable character to even annunciate. By contrast, the witnesses were of good character, many of them holding positions of public trust, before, during, or after their testimonies were published, as detailed by Richard Lloyd Anderson. Since later criticism of Joseph Smith by many witnesses never resulted in denials of printed testimonies, that criticism only makes their printed testimonies all the stronger. The testimonies are addressed to "nations, kindreds, tongues, and people", and those testimonies have gone forth with the Book of Mormon into the many languages into which it has been translated.

[AndyDnom]

On the NOM forum a female poster asks how did Joseph Smith come up with plates, in other words how did he pull off his scam? And another poster replies:

 

Emma's description is a bit of an anomaly, however Dan Vogel has published on this subject. Most likely, Joseph made them from tin (works for weight), an endeavor which would have been easy for him to do.

 

This response is interesting to me because the obvious conclusion, the only logical conclusion (i.e., the conclusion arrived at in Richard Anderson's Book Of Mormon Witnesses) is simply dismissed out of hand as impossible (S. McMurrin: "Angels simply do not appear to men bearing gold plates"--not an exact quote). And so we have "most likely, Joseph made them from tin...and endeavor which would have been easy for him to do."

 

Funny. It made me laugh.

 

What is the relevance of the gender of the poster?

[cdowis]

He certainly had the know how/recources to fabricate boxes of fake money to decieve people into buying paper in the Kirtland Anti-Banking society. What would one say for example, if today, a leader in the church set up an illegal hedge fund, against US law, falsified information to get people to invest in such, (Like Joseph Smith did, by saying it was a revelation from god that he do it), then when the whole thing collapes, this leader leaves town in the middle of the night, to avoid prosecution. That person is a criminal, and everyone would agree. Yet, somehow Joseph Smith gets a pass, as church supporters who now must try and justify this criminal behaviour.

 

 

 

This is a very serious accusation.

 

CFR -- that this was "fake" money, that JS falsified information, that he committed a criminal act.  What are your sources.

 

To avoid derailing this thread, please bring your case in a separate thread, so you can discuss this in detail.

Edited September 9, 2013 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

Real world considerations tell us that setting up an illegal bank, then running out of town to avoid prosecution, creditors, and angry investors who were under the assumption that Joseph Smith was ok, as long as he name dropped god. Someone who stands to make alot of money from this venture is of course going to go to lenghts to make sure the venture gets off the ground. You assume that because there is no "Simple Explanation", that it was impossible. Of course it is possible. 

The Book of Mormon would be no different. He tried to sell the copyright for money. That attempt failed of course. Again demonstrates behaviour. If he is capable of a banking scam, there is no reason to discount the possiblity that he defrauded others along the way in other areas. If the current leader of the church did this, he would be arrested and put in prison. Joseph Smith was not exempt from US law, even though his actions clearly showed he felt he was above it. (Look no further than declaring marshall law and destroying a printing press, in a country with freedom of speech that shows he felt he could do whatever he wanted).

Then please explain why the huckster Joseph threw his own money into the Kirtland bank while it was on its last legs to try to stabilize it. Did he fall for his own con?

Your last paragraph is kind of insane. You claim Joseph thought he was exempt from US (federal) law but Joseph was arrested under state law (and never convicted). The constitution was a federal document and was meant to shackle the federal government not the state government. Only much later following the civil war was the constitution seen to completely supersede state law. It is also "martial law" and the printing press would have fallen under freedom of the press not freedom of speech.

[The Nehor]

The tin painted gold idea fails the smell test. There were lots of gold coins in circulation. They would have known gold better then most of us do. It is not like tin.

[omni]

Really? I would like to hear of another similar situation where men, once supportive and then antagonistic, never deny the truths they knew. Critics like to claim LDS have to be very gullible to believe the story. Critics have to be even more gullible to ignore and disbelieve the evidence.

Cons only work when the group is united. Break them apart and they tell the true story. This never happened with the BM.

 

Take a look at the witnesses for Voree Plates that were produced by James Strang.  In an attempt gain control of the church after Joseph's death Strang produced the plates and a translation for them.  You could even say these witnesses' testimonies were  more impressive because their account was much more detailed and there were actual plates for everyone to see and investigate.  One of the witnesses included our very own Martin Harris and three others who didn't even belong to his faith.  I'm not aware of any of them ever denying their testimony, but I do know that one of them, Aaron Smith eventually denounced Strang while maintaining his testimony of the plates. 

[The Nehor]

Take a look at the witnesses for Voree Plates that were produced by James Strang.  In an attempt gain control of the church after Joseph's death Strang produced the plates and a translation for them.  You could even say these witnesses' testimonies were  more impressive because their account was much more detailed and there were actual plates for everyone to see and investigate.  One of the witnesses included our very own Martin Harris and three others who didn't even belong to his faith.  I'm not aware of any of them ever denying their testimony, but I do know that one of them, Aaron Smith eventually denounced Strang while maintaining his testimony of the plates.

Yes but the translation was crap.

[omni]

Yes but the translation was crap.

Of course it was, it was a fraud. But he still was able to convince witnesses to sign a detailed statement that they were from God.

[The Nehor]

Of course it was, it was a fraud. But he still was able to convince witnesses to sign a detailed statement that they were from God.

The obvious differences include:

No witnesses claim to have seen an angel testify about plates.

The plates were not made of a rare metal Strang would have had trouble acquiring (Joseph could not get that much gold).

Strang was doing this as a sign that he was the successor by copying Joseph but missed the important part of sharing light and knowledge.

[bdouglas]

What is the relevance of the gender of the poster?

 

There is none. If someone is relating an anecdote and he/she says, "A guy with black hair and thin mustache said...", there is no real relevance in the "black hair and thin mustache" detail. It is simply a way of adding color. No offense or disrespect was intended. 

 

(I hope not, since I have five daughters.)

Edited September 9, 2013 by bdouglas