What Are The Critical Arguments For The Production Of The Plates?

[Calm]

. Do you know of any non Mormon Archeologists that are agreeing with Dr. Sorenson's work?.

You will have to be more specific. Since Dr. Sorenson is widely published in nonLDS publications, it would seem obvious that there are those who agree with his work, but I am thinking you mean his interpretations about certain connections with the Book of Mormon. If so, can you point to any who are familiar enough with the Book of Mormon to evaluate such interpretations?

Edited September 27, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Why do you make me work for answers!!!!!! Cal, I just wonder if there have been more non LDS archeologists that side with Dr. Coe. But I'll see what I can find. My computer is in need of repair, I totally wore it out, so just on my phone for now.

[cdowis]

I'm now sure if I understand your argument correctly. Are you suggesting that Joseph didn't copy straight from the Bible

Yes.

and instead that his translation just happened to match word-for-word the KJV?

 

Huh?  I assume that you have not  bothered to make a comparison between the BOM text of Isaiah and the Biblical text.  

Hint: they are not identical.

Edited September 29, 2013 by cdowis

[omni]

I'm now sure if I understand your argument correctly. Are you suggesting that Joseph didn't copy straight from the Bible

Yes.

and instead that his translation just happened to match word-for-word the KJV?

Huh? I assume that you have not bothered to make a comparison between the BOM text of Isaiah and the Biblical text.

Hint: they are not identical.

Close to half the verses contained in both the Bible and the BoM are exactly the same. As I'm sure you're aware, the odds of two individuals translating that much material exactly the same is next to zero. Edited September 29, 2013 by omni

[cdowis]

 

Close to half the verses contained in both the Bible and the BoM are exactly the same. As I'm sure you're aware, the odds of two individuals translating that much material exactly the same is next to zero.

Cough...

unless they are translating copied of the same document which have differences in 50% of the text.  They did not translate it "exactly the same."  In both cases they are using the same vocabulary of the King James Version, rather than using the modern venacular.

 

Just curious, how much formal translation work have you actually done, just so that we know your expertise in this area.  Your comment indicates from zero to zip experience, but let's see what you got.

Edited September 29, 2013 by cdowis

[omni]

Cough...

unless they are translating copied of the same document which have differences in 50% of the text.  They did not translate it "exactly the same."  In both cases they are using the same vocabulary of the King James Version, rather than using the modern venacular.

 

Just curious, how much formal translation work have you actually done, just so that we know your expertise in this area.  Your comment indicates from zero to zip experience, but let's see what you got.

 

 

It depends on your definition of formal.  I did a bit of translation on my mission and a little after, but I've never worked as a professional translator.  

 

Are you really trying to argue that Joseph translated hundreds of verses (up to 50% of those contained in the BoM) word-for-word the same as the original translators of the KJV?  I Assume from your post that you have translating experience, so you should know how absurd this is--heck, even the apologists don't argue this.

[sweetpotatoh]

Defenders of the church also have decided from the "Git Go" that their position is correct. It only seems like a viable explanation because that is YOUR pre-conceived belief system and you must support it, despite no evidence. IE: Book of Mormon as a historical document, BOA etc. Joseph Smith's criminal history is ample evidence that he had it in him to do it. Could Joseph Smith have fabricated so called plates...of course he could have. He demostrated the same behaviour when trying to convince people to invest in the illegal bank he chartered. Namely, placing coins in the tops of boxes that were filled below with something else, giving the illusion that the bank had money. It didn't and it went under in a flame. He certainly had people around him who could have fabricated something to look like plates.

We have plenty of evidence. First and foremost the testimonies of each and every one of us who has received witness to the truth by the power of the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith was a prophet and he received the plates from our Father in Heaven. He translated the plates and produced The Book of Mormon by his obedience to God.

There has always been resistance to the truth. The world will always side against the church and Christ. The only way to know is through the witness of the Holy Ghost.

[cdowis]

Are you really trying to argue that Joseph translated hundreds of verses (up to 50% of those contained in the BoM) word-for-word the same as the original translators of the KJV?  

 

I am claiming that he did not have the KJV of the Bible as a resource during the translation process.  

 

I do not feel the need to explain the similarities until you are able  explain the differences, many of which are relatively minor.  Some of those differences would make for some interesting explaining, but that is an issue for another thread.  Indeed, it has already been discussed here on this forum.  

 

Again, in another thread, you might start your journey here     http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=2

 

Here is his conclusion

 

 

It has long been my contention that the best scientific evidence for the Book of Mormon is not archaeological or historical in nature, as important as these may be, but rather linguistic. This is because we have before us a printed text which can be subjected to linguistic analysis and comparison with the language spoken in the kingdom of Judah at the time of Lehi.

One of the more remarkable linguistic evidences for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon as a translation from an ancient text lies in the Isaiah variants found in it. The examples given here, though sketchy, are presented to offer some of that evidence to all those who seriously inquire after the origins of the Book of Mormon.

Edited September 30, 2013 by cdowis

[MormonMason]

Here is a passage (Matthew 2:1-12) from the King James Version:

¶ Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,  2 ¶ Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.  3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.  4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.  5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,  6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.  7 ¶ Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.  8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.  9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.  10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.  11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.  12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Now, compare that same passage to Matthew 2:1-12 in the American Standard Version of 1901:

 

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, Wise-men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,  2 ¶ Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we saw his star in the east, and are come to worship him.  3 And when Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.  4 And gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born.  5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written through the prophet,  6 And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah, art in no wise least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come forth a governor, who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.  7 ¶ Then Herod privily called the Wise-men, and learned of them exactly what time the star appeared.  8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search out exactly concerning the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word, that I also may come and worship him.  9 And they, having heard the king, went their way; and lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.  10 And when they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.  11 And they came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother; and they fell down and worshipped him; and opening their treasures they offered unto him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.  12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

 

Let's now take a look at Hebrews 1:1-12 in the KJV:

 

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?  6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.  7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.  8 ¶ But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.  9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:  11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;  12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

 

And now compare that with the same text in the American Standard Version:

 

Hebrews 1:1-12  God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,  2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;  3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.  5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him a Father, And he shall be to me a Son?  6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.  7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:  8 ¶ but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.  9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:  11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;  12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

 

Now, let's take the same passage from the New testament in the New American Standard Version of 1977, that quotes from the Old Testament, and compare that translation's quote from the Old Testament with the same passage in the KJV Old Testament.  The passage in the NASB is Hebrews 1:1-12, with the Old Testament quotes in bold.

 

 

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.  3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;  4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.  5 ¶ For to which of the angels did He ever say, "Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me"?  6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."  7 And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire."  8 ¶ But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.  9 "Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee With the oil of gladness above Thy companions."  10 And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Thy hands;  11 They will perish, but Thou remainest; And they all will become old as a garment,  12 And as a mantle Thou wilt roll them up; As a garment they will also be changed. But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end."

 

Here are the passages quoted as they appear in the King James Version of the Bible, in the order cited in the New Testament passage.
 

Psalm 2:7:  7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

 

2 Samuel 7:14:  14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

 

Psalms 104:4:  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

 

Psalm 97:7:  7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.

 

Psalm 45:6-7:  6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.  7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 

Psalm 102:25-27:  25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.  26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:  27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

 

Not identical in every place, but much of the verbiage is the same.  In certain cases, the differences in verbiage actually are due to textual differences in the Greek version of the Old Testament, showing the kinds of differences in translation that come through in an English translation of a foreign language text that itself derives from an earlier Hebrew text.  A couple of the passages cited by the author of Hebrews actually do not occur in the KJV as worded in a few places (or in the Hebrew) but do occur with those differences in the Greek Old Testament.  The kind of same phenomenon that occurs interversionally among ancient biblical texts also occurs in the Book of Mormon.

 

I just wish that this board's software allowed HTML tables so that the wording could be placed side-by-side in columns.  In the absence of that capability the above is the best we can do under the circumstances.  In any case, let the reader draw his/her own conclusions.

Edited September 30, 2013 by MormonMason

[female poster]

Hey everyone... female poster here. As in 'a female poster, on the NOM forum'. You remember:

On the NOM forum a female poster asks how did Joseph Smith come up with plates, in other words how did he pull off his scam? And another poster replies:

 

Emma's description is a bit of an anomaly, however Dan Vogel has published on this subject. Most likely, Joseph made them from tin (works for weight), an endeavor which would have been easy for him to do.

 

This response is interesting to me because the obvious conclusion, the only logical conclusion (i.e., the conclusion arrived at in Richard Anderson's Book Of Mormon Witnesses) is simply dismissed out of hand as impossible (S. McMurrin: "Angels simply do not appear to men bearing gold plates"--not an exact quote). And so we have "most likely, Joseph made them from tin...and endeavor which would have been easy for him to do."

 

Funny. It made me laugh.

Having still felt unsatisfied with any answer to my question I did a google search that brought me to this forum. 

Interesting (dormant) debate.

Most interesting is the assumption that as a person (such as myself) "doubts my doubts" out loud, suddenly it's assumed that people (such as myself) think Joseph Smith pulled off a scam.

Funny. That made me laugh.

I actually don't believe Joseph Smith was attempting a scam. However I'm still interested in learning all I can about the materials, people, and circumstances surrounding that particular time period. Facts please!

Thanks,

Just a 'female poster'