Women Teaching Men (1 Tim 2:12)

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, even in the EV church women do teach in mixed classes, and the rationale then was that she was teaching under the authority of the pastor, who was always present in the room, on the "mount" with her.   In Islam, I NEVER saw a woman instructing men at the Masjid, thought here are women who teach school children.

 

So, I have taught in Sacrament service, and in Sunday school and was able to do it because it did not take long to realize that what ever "hot seat" I was on at the time, every other member had also had this experience at one time or another. For me, this is another thing that is Majik about the church.

 

So, I wonder how early Mormons reasoned out 1 Tim 2:12?

[rpn]

Cultural? Or perhaps a not translated correctly thing?

[Ahab]

Well, even in the EV church women do teach in mixed classes, and the rationale then was that she was teaching under the authority of the pastor, who was always present in the room, on the "mount" with her.   In Islam, I NEVER saw a woman instructing men at the Masjid, thought here are women who teach school children.

 

So, I have taught in Sacrament service, and in Sunday school and was able to do it because it did not take long to realize that what ever "hot seat" I was on at the time, every other member had also had this experience at one time or another. For me, this is another thing that is Majik about the church.

 

So, I wonder how early Mormons reasoned out 1 Tim 2:12?

Paul said:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;she must be quiet.

 

Translation:  No priesthood for her !!!

[EllenMaksoud]

Paul said:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;she must be quiet.

 

Translation:  No priesthood for her !!!

But women teach, so how is the chain of command worked out?

[EllenMaksoud]

Paul said:  I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;she must be quiet.

 

Translation:  No priesthood for her !!!

I don't think you actually want to know what I think about being saddled with one more thing! Now, go play with your trains.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

My view is that just because Paul said something in a letter doesn't mean he was right. He can be a good, inspired guy, but we all learn line upon line. He was writing from a deeply patriarchal cultural background; it'd be more surprising if sexist stuff like this didn't seep into his teaching. 

 

What's fun is trying to untangle for modern applicability the cultural complications present in teachings such as 1 Corinthians 11: 
 

 

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

 

So, clearly, the hold-up on modern LDS women receiving the Priesthood and Prophesying in General Conference is just that they haven't been covering their head, which gives both Conservative and Liberal interpreters equal opportunity to be annoyed.

[halconero]

Is everyone here so sure that women don't already receive the priesthood under certain circumstances?

[Ahab]

But women teach, so how is the chain of command worked out?

No, you don't quite get what I meant.

 

Paul was talking about what he doesn't allow a woman to do.  A woman.  Not all women. 

 

I wish he would have told us what her name was, but at any rate, Paul didn't allow that woman to teach a man and he was saying he wanted her to be quiet.  I don't think she was following the admonition of Paul, though, so no priesthood for her !!!  Meaning she didn't regard Paul as someone who had the the priesthood (authority of God) to tell her to be quiet.

 

I've seen women like that in many wards I've been in, but not all women are that obstinate.

[Tacenda]

No, you don't quite get what I meant.

 

Paul was talking about what he doesn't allow a woman to do.  A woman.  Not all women. 

 

I wish he would have told us what her name was, but at any rate, Paul didn't allow that woman to teach a man and he was saying he wanted her to be quiet.  I don't think she was following the admonition of Paul, though, so no priesthood for her !!!  Meaning she didn't regard Paul as someone who had the the priesthood (authority of God) to tell her to be quiet.

 

I've seen women like that in many wards I've been in, but not all women are that obstinate.

Thanks Ahab, it definitely helps when things are put into context like you've done here!  Maybe I like Paul again, not that I even really knew him. 

[Ahab]

Is everyone here so sure that women don't already receive the priesthood under certain circumstances?

Everyone who receives our Lord's servants who speak with his authority is receiving the priesthood of God.  Not that all are ordained to an office in the priesthood, like a deacon or priest or elder or apostle, etc, but a person doesn' t need to be ordained to an office in the priesthood to be able to receive the priesthood.  We receive it by receiving what those who have it offer to us.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well, even in the EV church women do teach in mixed classes, and the rationale then was that she was teaching under the authority of the pastor, who was always present in the room, on the "mount" with her.   In Islam, I NEVER saw a woman instructing men at the Masjid, thought here are women who teach school children.

 

So, I have taught in Sacrament service, and in Sunday school and was able to do it because it did not take long to realize that what ever "hot seat" I was on at the time, every other member had also had this experience at one time or another. For me, this is another thing that is Majik about the church.

 

So, I wonder how early Mormons reasoned out 1 Tim 2:12?

I grew up in a Church where women were not allowed to teach, but we only attended Church as it was a one room building. So I went to another nearby Church for Sunday School as a teenager because my Church had no services of any kind for youth. Women did teach in Sunday School for younger segregated youths, and then Woman teaching young women and Men teaching young men. The first time my parents attended a Sacrament meeting in which I spoke, my mother was overwhelmed to see a Sister speaking with me, she enjoyed it very much!

[halconero]

Everyone who receives our Lord's servants who speak with his authority is receiving the priesthood of God.  Not that all are ordained to an office in the priesthood, like a deacon or priest or elder or apostle, etc, but a person doesn' t need to be ordained to an office in the priesthood to be able to receive the priesthood.  We receive it by receiving what those who have it offer to us.

 

Mhm.

 

There are also certain circumstances where those not ordained to an office in the priesthood still act with authority derived from it. An example with males is where Joseph and Oliver have the Aaronic priesthood conferred on them, baptize each other and then proceed to ordain each other.

 

I believe that it is evident that woman can and do act in priesthood authority.

 

As we were reminded this last conference, the priesthood is not male, but it is best expressed in the union of male and female.

[Ahab]

Mhm.

 

There are also certain circumstances where those not ordained to an office in the priesthood still act with authority derived from it. An example with males is where Joseph and Oliver have the Aaronic priesthood conferred on them, baptize each other and then proceed to ordain each other.

 

I believe that it is evident that woman can and do act in priesthood authority.

 

As we were reminded this last conference, the priesthood is not male, but it is best expressed in the union of male and female.

Mhm.  I agree with that too.  I think most people who have problems with the idea of women receiving the priesthood are just getting hung up on thinking receiving the priesthood is restricted to being ordained to an office in the priesthood.  But there are other ways to receive it.  And it does work best when men and women work together to do the will of our Lord, and our Father.