Rescuing A Wayward Spouse

[sdc999]

Why would you not want to help a spouse that has the 'flu'? But, who has the 'flu'? That is the question. Surely the one remaining steadfast to the church believes it's the other while the one who has left the belief feels the opposite. That is what a close relationship is all about. Helping each other live to the fullest in everthing and making sure the other is safe in their endeavors. I've never seen successful couples that didn't stumble upon something and not want to share it with the other. Why is this a shock when one leaves the church then and want the other to see their point of view. It sure seems to be the norm when one hears about the church and wants the other to share in the joy they have found.

Love your spouse, listen to your spouse and respect each other.

[why me]

If that is the case in any relationship I would encourage the believing spouse to kindly tell the other to not actively try to lead them out. But if if she/he wants to be given that respect she/he should return it and not make any attempt to get the non-attending/non-believing spouse back to church. Isn't that fair?

In a perfect world, this would be great. But when sunday comes around and the disbelieving spouse stays home for the three hour block while the other spouse takes the children themselves and the children to church, I am not sure just how this would all work. And of course the disbelieving spouse must not attempt to get the children out of the church too. If such a couple can do it and all are happy and peaceful with it, I see no problem.

[why me]

Why not just state that they are trying to share their discontent with the Church rather than turn it into some kind of disease?

I agree with this. The blogger was a little off with his figurative language. Trying to undestand why he did use that term, I did come up with a possibility: he has heard of many cases of those out of the church 'spreading' their doubt and 'infecting' the other spouse. So, he called it the flu.

When I read a text, I attempt to have a dialogue with the writer by asking him or her questions that i would ask if he or she were present. And by doing this, I came up with a reason for him to use the word flu and what perhaps he was thinking when he did so.

Edited August 4, 2013 by why me

[Duncan]

In my situation I was bombarded with anti Mormon and nastiness stuff from not just my then wife but people from, well in my stake at that time there were three schisms out of the Church, and two of those groups' members tried to get me out because then I was a fairly recent RM 3-4 years, had been a EQ Pres. in YSA for two years so i was seen then a trophy ex Mormon. So it was relentless at times coming home from work or school and they'd be in the living room and telling me all kinds of stuff and constant emails, constant phone calls. One prominent (well then prominent) ex Mormon's wife even phoned to talk to me and I just hung up when I figured out what she wanted. So, I have seen that side of people and don't ever want to go through that again. That's when I discovered FAIR and signed onto the message board in and around 2003 or '02 or something.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Duncan

[why me]

I would love for there to a culture of discussing the endowment. There should be more than just a temple prep class. There should also be a temple debrief class or a temple review class.

Although this is off topic I would also call for more openness. I see nothing wrong with such discussions in a respectful manner. If one can watch the entire temple ceremony on the internet, I see nothing wrong with a frank discussion before people go there. It can only help people with the temple experience.

[why me]

In my situation I was bombarded with anti Mormon and nastiness stuff from not just my then wife but people from, well in my stake at that time there were three schisms out of the Church, and two of those groups' members tried to get me out because then I was a fairly recent RM 3-4 years, had been a EQ Pres. in YSA for two years so i was seen then a trophy ex Mormon. So it was relentless at times coming home from work or school and they'd be in the living room and telling me all kinds of stuff and constant emails, constant phone calls. One prominent (well then prominent) ex Mormon's wife even phoned to talk to me and I just hung up when I figured out what she wanted. So, I have seen that side of people and don't ever want to go through that again. That's when I discovered FAIR and signed onto the message board in and around 2003 or '02 or something.

Your experience is rather usual. I have read of many such attempts by exmembers and exmember spouses to get faithful people out and in the case of family members for the peace of the family, they also can leave the faith. Sometimes the choice is between leaving the church or getting a divorce.

My question for some of thread members is what is a spouse to do in this situation and can we use the words 'spreading the flu' in these circumstances?

[tyler90az]

A baptism ceremony is not a surprise.

Actually, that white jump suit freaked me out.

[Calm]

And by doing this, I came up with a reason for him to use the word flu and what perhaps he was thinking when he did so.

If it is why he described it that way, he should limit the term to that particular type of individual to avoid tarring other spouses who do no such things with the same negative connotations. When we are trying to help people as opposed to just pontificating for fun, we should try to be precise as possible to ensure we 'do no harm' first and foremost.

[Calm]

In my situation I was bombarded with anti Mormon and nastiness stuff from not just my then wife but people from, well in my stake at that time there were three schisms out of the Church, and two of those groups' members tried to get me out because then I was a fairly recent RM 3-4 years, had been a EQ Pres. in YSA for two years so i was seen then a trophy ex Mormon. So it was relentless at times coming home from work or school and they'd be in the living room and telling me all kinds of stuff and constant emails, constant phone calls. One prominent (well then prominent) ex Mormon's wife even phoned to talk to me and I just hung up when I figured out what she wanted. So, I have seen that side of people and don't ever want to go through that again. That's when I discovered FAIR and signed onto the message board in and around 2003 or '02 or something.

Duncan, I am sad that you had to go through that. It must have really tarnished your memories of the good things about your relationship and made church related stuff hard to bear just because of reminding you of the harassment. I would have so lost it. My home is my refuge, I can't imagine not being able to shut the door on negativity whenever I feel the need.

[Calm]

If one can watch the entire temple ceremony on the internet, I see nothing wrong with a frank discussion before people go there. It can only help people with the temple experience.

And kids can come across porn and see all types of sexual displays...doesn't mean we should automatically talk to them about that level of sex. There is an appropriate way to do it. We should never let others set the standards for how we create our own sacred spaces, imo.

[Calm]

Your experience is rather usual. I have read of many such attempts by exmembers and exmember spouses to get faithful people out and in the case of family members for the peace of the family, they also can leave the faith. Sometimes the choice is between leaving the church or getting a divorce.

My question for some of thread members is what is a spouse to do in this situation and can we use the words 'spreading the flu' in these circumstances?

Why can't we just describe it as attempting to convince the faithful members to leave. This is a case, imo, where using analogies is totally unnecessary.

[Duncan]

Duncan, I am sad that you had to go through that. It must have really tarnished your memories of the good things about your relationship and made church related stuff hard to bear just because of reminding you of the harassment. I would have so lost it. My home is my refuge, I can't imagine not being able to shut the door on negativity whenever I feel the need.

oh, it was tough for sure!!!!! and the sad thing is is some of these people had been in my YSA and others I knew from around the stake and I had no one to turn to, I was totally embarrased and self concious and it was a very, very bad time and it got worse then got better, now I am totally fine!!!!! but yeah, I remember coming home from work one night and I knew who was over because I could see their cars parked outside. I was being driven with a friend and his wife, members of the Church and I just broke down and bawled and it was awkward for them i'm sure! yeah, going to churhc was difficult, I was taking my then inafnt by myself and the questions you'd get, "where is..." and it was a bad vortex and people from the ward and other people would try to reach out to her and she'd flip out on them and i'd hear about it on sunday or at some activity

Edited August 4, 2013 by Duncan

[Calm]

I found an appropriate story to share on the Mormon Women site that relates to this. I find her portrayal much more positive and dynamic and real (in the sense she is trying to meet her husband fully on his path while staying true to her own):

http://www.mormonwomen.com/2010/05/04/the-journey-is-the-reward/

[canard78]

I can't believe I had the cheek to even try to participate in this thread. My own past life is unbelievably broken. If people here knew me ...

Absolutely no offence taken. I know there was no malice in your questions. They are all fair questions. And please don't feel inadequate to participate.

[Bikeemikey]

In a perfect world, this would be great. But when sunday comes around and the disbelieving spouse stays home for the three hour block while the other spouse takes the children themselves and the children to church, I am not sure just how this would all work. And of course the disbelieving spouse must not attempt to get the children out of the church too. If such a couple can do it and all are happy and peaceful with it, I see no problem.

Why would such a spouse not attempt to get the kids out? It would be totally reasonable to alternate weeks (assuming the inactive-non believing spouse had something valuable they wanted to share with their family during that time).

[Bikeemikey]

Thanks for your suggestions Ellen. I understand where you're driving at and I appreciate the intention. But it suggests there something wrong with her or me and that if we work out what that thing is then I'll be able to "fix her." I'm not trying to fix her. She's not broken.

Can I ask you something? Your faith journey goes like this (I think): Evangelical > Islam > Mormonism. Did you leave the first two because there was something wrong with you? Or did you move on because where you were 'at' or where you wanted to work towards was incongruous with the religion you were a part of?

But I love the idea of owning an Inspector Gadget hat:

I think you mis-read the intention of her questions. The questions dot assume there is something wrong per se... They are simply inquiries a to rule out something resolvable before moving on to the admission that it may not be an obviously resolvable change.

[Tacenda]

In my situation I was bombarded with anti Mormon and nastiness stuff from not just my then wife but people from, well in my stake at that time there were three schisms out of the Church, and two of those groups' members tried to get me out because then I was a fairly recent RM 3-4 years, had been a EQ Pres. in YSA for two years so i was seen then a trophy ex Mormon. So it was relentless at times coming home from work or school and they'd be in the living room and telling me all kinds of stuff and constant emails, constant phone calls. One prominent (well then prominent) ex Mormon's wife even phoned to talk to me and I just hung up when I figured out what she wanted. So, I have seen that side of people and don't ever want to go through that again. That's when I discovered FAIR and signed onto the message board in and around 2003 or '02 or something.

That would be a turnoff for me as well, and how I felt last night when walking through the entrance of the Nauvoo Pageant, where several people lined up with posters saying things like "God is not a man" sort of thing, and "you don't want to go to hell believing that". One man shouting out things, it made me want to run into the arms of the loving latter day saints. Such a difference in the spirit, why can't these people see that? Edited August 4, 2013 by Tacenda

[canard78]

I think you mis-read the intention of her questions. The questions dot assume there is something wrong per se... They are simply inquiries a to rule out something resolvable before moving on to the admission that it may not be an obviously resolvable change.

I think you're right. I mentioned in follow-up to Ellen that I recognised the intent of her questions on reflection again.

.

[Questing Beast]

I think one problem is that often when one spouse loses their testimony and becomes "inactive" or "less active" or leaves the Church completely it is not necessarily because they are being influenced by "anti-Mormon" literature and this is often assumed to be the case by other ward members. Some leave because they get into Church history itself and find it incompatible with their current belief system. They can't reconcile teachings from the past that have been changed in the present. Or a host of other numerous reasons.

After her temple marriage several years ago, within the next month, my sister-in-law confided in me that it was the temple rituals themselves that started her quest out of the church. She felt the temple was a "creepy" experience and nothing like the way it was presented to her in her temple prep class. This is tragic to me, that on her first time to the temple (other than doing baptisms as a young teen) she began to have doubts. She said it was one of the "most miserable and devastating days of her life." This is a woman who was BIC and descended from a long line of pioneers and a strong Church family.

She certainly had not been reading any anti-Mormon literature before her wedding. But after this experience THEN she began to delve into Church history and felt that she had been "lied to" her entire life. She left the Church within a year. My brother was devastated by this change of events. He didn't know how to cope with the changes this meant and especially in a new marriage. They have been married now for almost 5 years. He loves her very much and I know she loves him. He prays constantly she will come home to the Church.as does the rest of the family. They have two children who she is allowing to be raised in the Church but says they will get the "truth" from her when they are older.

These situations of a "wayward spouse" are all different. My temple marriage in 1978 was probably the highlight of my life. I certainly didn't think the endowment or my sealing were "creepy." I thought it was holy. A lot is perspective.

I pray that for those of you in this situation will deal with their spouse in a loving manner. If anything they need it more than ever.

This is good insight you've shared.

As I was growing up, there was an old woman we called "grandma Miller", and she lived next door to her married son. Gma Miller was "inactive". My Mom told me that she had gone to the temple exactly once in her life, on the day she was married. It scared her half to death. "Creepy" possibly was an understatement!

I was prepared to be weirded out by the temple. My parents had given me enough information to make it not quite so bizarre. But even so it was highly alien to my way of thinking. I took it as something important to my parents and sucked in my personal aesthetics. I've never liked the temple, and for decades only endured it, while trying to get into it and learn the "insights" that are asserted to be "only there". I've never felt more spiritual than in my own home. The temple is merely a place. Of course, "YMMV" could not be more true....

[kassie]

This is good insight you've shared.

As I was growing up, there was an old woman we called "grandma Miller", and she lived next door to her married son. Gma Miller was "inactive". My Mom told me that she had gone to the temple exactly once in her life, on the day she was married. It scared her half to death. "Creepy" possibly was an understatement!

I was prepared to be weirded out by the temple. My parents had given me enough information to make it not quite so bizarre. But even so it was highly alien to my way of thinking. I took it as something important to my parents and sucked in my personal aesthetics. I've never liked the temple, and for decades only endured it, while trying to get into it and learn the "insights" that are asserted to be "only there". I've never felt more spiritual than in my own home. The temple is merely a place. Of course, "YMMV" could not be more true....

Does YMMV mean "Your mileage may vary?" That's the Wikipedia definition anyway! I agree that your home should be a "mini-Temple." After all that is the purpose of the temple to me anyway....

[why me]

Why would such a spouse not attempt to get the kids out? It would be totally reasonable to alternate weeks (assuming the inactive-non believing spouse had something valuable they wanted to share with their family during that time).

The kids would go to church every other sunday? I can't see that working for the believing member. How to teach keeping the sabbath holy if the children are out with mom or dad at the mall getting ice creams or at the beach every other sunday? We are talking about two adults living together one in the church and one out of the church.

[why me]

The temple is merely a place.

Interesting way of putting it. The temple is merely a place. I think that the lds church does consider it more than a place. Now mind you I haven't gone in years. But I would never describe it as 'merely a place'. It is suppose to be the house of the lord unless of course he lives in 'merely a place'.

[Questing Beast]

Does YMMV mean "Your mileage may vary?" That's the Wikipedia definition anyway! I agree that your home should be a "mini-Temple." After all that is the purpose of the temple to me anyway....

Sorry for the use of the acronym! I HATE acronyms, that is known as irony. Yes, your mileage my vary.

I always ask, "what is it for?" to get at the core reason for something. And the temple to many people is a place to flee their life, including their home life. That is surely backwards! The temple should improve the home, until like Samuel Johnson says, "To be happy at home is the ultimate result of all ambition"....

[Bikeemikey]

The kids would go to church every other sunday? I can't see that working for the believing member. How to teach keeping the sabbath holy if the children are out with mom or dad at the mall getting ice creams or at the beach every other sunday? We are talking about two adults living together one in the church and one out of the church.

I am also talking about two adults living together. Two parents living together may need to come to a functional compromise around different areas if belief in order to maintain the integrity of the relationship.

Your assumption that the solution should reasonably exclude what might work for the non-believer is the root of most of the discussion on this thread.

Why would what works for the believer be more important to the relationship than what works for the non-believer?

This is a difficult situation that would only work based on sacrifice.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[why me]

I am also talking about two adults living together. Two parents living together may need to come to a functional compromise around different areas if belief in order to maintain the integrity of the relationship.

Your assumption that the solution should reasonably exclude what might work for the non-believer is the root of most of the discussion on this thread.

Why would what works for the believer be more important to the relationship than what works for the non-believer?

This is a difficult situation that would only work based on sacrifice.

To rotate the children in and out of attending church would not work with the couples. For the believing spouse the issue is too important. And too much confusion for the kids. It will harm them spiritually. The non-believing exmormon would need to let the children attend church every sunday to establish peace.