Looking Forward To The Chinese

[canard78]

Some might argue that the missionaries are spreading more than the gospel, they are spreading a certain type of lifestyle as an ideal. That lifestyle held up as an ideal is, some would argue, a white American middle class lifestyle firmly anchored in the mores of the 1950s. Further, some might argue that America is a nation of immigrants so when you say someone is American, the depth and significance of that label is quite different than saying someone is Chinese.

I was sat in a small Filipino congregation a while back. It was a small community on a fishing island (Panglao). An retired American spoke (in English), followed by a local sister reading from a conference talk.

It was painfully obvious in that meeting that, in many ways, the church remains a Western organisation imposing itself on the cultures of the developing markets. The church's leaders and policies are still heavily influenced by American philosophy and culture.

It's one reason I find Elder Uchtdorf a great balance. He's from a different culture, and it shows.

[Stone holm]

I was sat in a small Filipino congregation a while back. It was a small community on a fishing island (Panglao). An retired American spoke (in English), followed by a local sister reading from a conference talk.

It was painfully obvious in that meeting that, in many ways, the church remains a Western organisation imposing itself on the cultures of the developing markets. The church's leaders and policies are still heavily influenced by American philosophy and culture.

It's one reason I find Elder Uchtdorf a great balance. He's from a different culture, and it shows.

I agree with everything you have noted here.

[CV75]

Some might argue that the missionaries are spreading more than the gospel

So? People are imperfect all the time, and yet the Lord gets His work done. Having been on the receiving end of such, even as a new convert, I wasn't offended in the least. I saw it for what it was, and I knew that some people just didn't know the difference.

But I've already cut to the chase on that pioint with my pervious posts: when people don't conflate the Gospel message with other things, and then / or are trigger-happy to accuse others of doing that very thing, "shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth.” This is covered under the command, “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (D&C 65: 1-2).” I think this is the basis for Elder Uchdorf's and similarly inspired comments, and I don't think the intent is to bypass Matthew 7:1-2.

Humanity has been dealing with these issues for millenia, and now the "the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth" anyway.

[Garden Girl]

"family values"

Wonder how the LDS family value having 6-12 children will go over in a society limiting itself to 2 children.

6 - 12 children? I think you overstate sir... today's LDS have smaller size families in number because of the realities of providing for a family... and following counsel about living prudently, staying out of debt, etc etc.

GG

[Stone holm]

So? People are imperfect all the time, and yet the Lord gets His work done. Having been on the receiving end of such, even as a new convert, I wasn't offended in the least. I saw it for what it was, and I knew that some people just didn't know the difference.

But I've already cut to the chase on that pioint with my pervious posts: when people don't conflate the Gospel message with other things, and then / or are trigger-happy to accuse others of doing that very thing, "shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth.” This is covered under the command, “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (D&C 65: 1-2).” I think this is the basis for Elder Uchdorf's and similarly inspired comments, and I don't think the intent is to bypass Matthew 7:1-2.

Humanity has been dealing with these issues for millenia, and now the "the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth" anyway.

Uhm, not sure you understand if you think you have cut to the chase, the filling of the whole earth was not necessarily meant to be the Westernization of the whole earth.

[Stone holm]

6 - 12 children? I think you overstate sir... today's LDS have smaller size families in number because of the realities of providing for a family... and following counsel about living prudently, staying out of debt, etc etc.

GG

Well, maybe. As people move up the economic ladder, they tend to have fewer children. Hence the phrase, "the rich get richer and the poor have children." Although, I would note that although I have a relatively huge family, 7 children, 3 stepchildren, and one foster child. None of the next generation intended to have more than two, although one had three before he got his vasectomy. So the economic thing is kind of counterintuitive.

[Garden Girl]

Well, maybe. As people move up the economic ladder, they tend to have fewer children. Hence the phrase, "the rich get richer and the poor have children." Although, I would note that although I have a relatively huge family, 7 children, 3 stepchildren, and one foster child. None of the next generation intended to have more than two, although one had three before he got his vasectomy. So the economic thing is kind of counterintuitive.

Wow, Stone Holm... may I say from my observation of the families in my ward, that you are an exception... and also from my observation... moving up the economic ladder in this day and age depends on many factors not relevant in the past. Over the past few years, many families have experienced a downward direction on that ladder as a result of the downsizing of numerous companies, hence the laying off of employees or reducing work schedules... business failures, etc. etc. I note the number of foreclosed homes for instance... No, in these times of uncertainty, although hopefully there are signs of things improving slowly, many families feel the need to put on hold the enlarging of their families indefinitely. The reality is they simply can't afford larger families. So I don't think you can actually ignore the economic thing...

GG

[Stone holm]

Wow, Stone Holm... may I say from my observation of the families in my ward, that you are an exception... and also from my observation... moving up the economic ladder in this day and age depends on many factors not relevant in the past. Over the past few years, many families have experienced a downward direction on that ladder as a result of the downsizing of numerous companies, hence the laying off of employees or reducing work schedules... business failures, etc. etc. I note the number of foreclosed homes for instance... No, in these times of uncertainty, although hopefully there are signs of things improving slowly, many families feel the need to put on hold the enlarging of their families indefinitely. The reality is they simply can't afford larger families. So I don't think you can actually ignore the economic thing...

GG

If you look around you, you will find the old adage true...the rich get richer and the poor have children. As for me, I was a third child so when the idea of limiting yourself to two children came along it kind of failed to resonate with me.

[CV75]

Uhm, not sure you understand if you think you have cut to the chase, the filling of the whole earth was not necessarily meant to be the Westernization of the whole earth.

LOL--so what if you're not sure I understand that people conflate the two, as you yourself have exposed yourself as doing, and now are trying to backpedal on?

[Stone holm]

LOL--so what if you're not sure I understand that people conflate the two, as you yourself have exposed yourself as doing, and now are trying to backpedal on?

Backpedal....no I fully agree that we are, possibly inadvertently, trying to impose our western culture upon others...after all aren't we the best and most noble culture on Earth? Who else has a Divinely inspired Constituion (which people get about as confused about as they do religion)?

[Bikeemikey]

My nephew is soon to marry a Chinese girl, I forget where from in China, but not Hong Kong. Their marriage follows a lengthy courtship and engagement. My son-in-law's mother is full Chinese from Hong Kong. Thus our new grandson is one quarter Chinese.

Congrats!!! Long engagements are commonplace in Chinese culture. Often times families frown on marriage unless the couple have a house and a few other life necessitities under their belts.

For many years, the Chinese have lived under a totalitarian regime. This followed many generations of literal anarchy during the European colonial/imperialism epoch of the 19th century, effectively ending the "last dynasty" of emperors of China. It has never mystified me why the Chinese agree to labor under Communism. It has been better than the anarchy before that. The Chinese are, arguably, the most tradition-bound culture on earth. They've been keeping written histories longer than anybody else. Their family traditions are strong and enduring. And it seems to me that once politico-economic interests of the USA and China are bound "hip and thigh" (as I am quite confident they will be in the near future), that the LDS faith will take off and "sell like hotcakes". Then we will all see something!

I dont think your brief paragrapgh on Chinese histroy captures the nuance and detail of the last 250 years in China... I am sure you liekly agree. It should however be noted that there has never been a time in the history of the world that so many people been lifted out of poverty in a 60 year period. The Chinese govt have done more in for the poor of th world (measured in the number of those moved from below to above the poverty line) than any other institution. The are followed by the Indian govt. Ofcourse this is a functioning of so many people living in the country during a time of extreme economic growth. It should also be noted that such growth has been partially fueled by American consumer purchasing.

US Chinese president. US Mormon Chinese president, not to mention president of the LDS Church.

We can dream.

What the USA could use right now, and even more as time is wasting, is a strong shot in the arm of strong traditional family values and societal expectations. Propriety. These the Chinese have in spades. What the Chinese need is more individual liberty. A "marriage" of the two would be beneficial, and, interesting. Religion-wise not the least.

If your wild generalizations about US and Chinese culture were correct you might be on to something.

I predict that the Chinese people will not be bothered in the least by "the issues" that many of us bring up on fora like this one, and in symposiums or critical publications, etc. To the Chinese, the presented view or story is the correct one, because it is the official one. All lookalikes are discredited as less genuine and can be ignored. The Chinese are totally accustomed to being told the "party line", and doing their best to comply with it. Why do otherwise? That benefits no one. So the "faith promoting" story of the LDS religion is the one that Chinese converts will want to know, the only one they will care about, and anything controversial is to be ignored as trivial and even unhelpful. In many ways this is very sensible policy. It certainly makes "the hive" function well with everyone happily content with their part, and, ideally, well taken care of by the abundance that the State provides through common cause and effort, etc.

Again, this is based on a very limited idea of chinese people.

LDS values and Chinese values are almost identical. You can read this last line and skip the rest if you are pressed for time. ...

This statement is ridiculous and also incongruent with you opening question as to why Chinese have tolerated living without freedom for so long... also a incorrect assessment of how things are for Chinese.

Got to love those Chinese family values that make China the nation with the most infanticide of female babies in the world. Family culture is so strong it is more appropriate to kill a daughter in order to have a son.

[Stone holm]

Congrats!!! Long engagements are commonplace in Chinese culture. Often times families frown on marriage unless the couple have a house and a few other life necessitities under their belts.

I dont think your brief paragrapgh on Chinese histroy captures the nuance and detail of the last 250 years in China... I am sure you liekly agree. It should however be noted that there has never been a time in the history of the world that so many people been lifted out of poverty in a 60 year period. The Chinese govt have done more in for the poor of th world (measured in the number of those moved from below to above the poverty line) than any other institution. The are followed by the Indian govt. Ofcourse this is a functioning of so many people living in the country during a time of extreme economic growth. It should also be noted that such growth has been partially fueled by American consumer purchasing.

We can dream.

If your wild generalizations about US and Chinese culture were correct you might be on to something.

Again, this is based on a very limited idea of chinese people.

This statement is ridiculous and also incongruent with you opening question as to why Chinese have tolerated living without freedom for so long... also a incorrect assessment of how things are for Chinese.

Got to love those Chinese family values that make China the nation with the most infanticide of female babies in the world. Family culture is so strong it is more appropriate to kill a daughter in order to have a son.

But you have to admire their recycling of bodily organs of executed convicts. Who would have thought of mobile execution vans to bring the organs fresh to the hospital, what amazing breakthroughs, you would have thought Texas would have figured it out first with our vaunted private secto ingenuity.

[Questing Beast]

I don't mind being put in my place. It's one of the perverse reasons why I start threads like this one. Education always comes at a price. I only hope the Mike on a bike is right when he makes such equally sweeping assertions as I have done, or else my "education" will definitely take a hit....

[CV75]

Backpedal....no I fully agree that we are, possibly inadvertently, trying to impose our western culture upon others...after all aren't we the best and most noble culture on Earth? Who else has a Divinely inspired Constituion (which people get about as confused about as they do religion)?

How does one inadvertently try? By diligently being indifferent?

I believe that Zion is the best and most noble culture on Earth, and this is what the Lord is extending toward (and not imposing upon) His children among the nations of the earth.

The US Constitution is divinely inspired, but that has nothing to do with a nation’s choice to permit the Church to proselyte (not many nations would concede that it is inspired), and the Church is well known to work within whatever governmental system agrees to host her.

While it is too easy to transfer parochial views toward the Church, the Church doesn’t conflate the Gospel with modern Americana, including what the Book of Mormon teaches about the Restoration.

Edited July 20, 2013 by CV75

[Stone holm]

How does one inadvertently try? By diligently being indifferent?

I believe that Zion is the best and most noble culture on Earth, and this is what the Lord is extending toward (and not imposing upon) His children among the nations of the earth.

The US Constitution is divinely inspired, but that has nothing to do with a nation’s choice to permit the Church to proselyte (not many nations would concede that it is inspired), and the Church is well known to work within whatever governmental system agrees to host her.

While it is too easy to transfer parochial views toward the Church, the Church doesn’t conflate the Gospel with modern Americana, including what the Book of Mormon teaches about the Restoration.

I think the Church is making a conscious effort to turn down the Americanization melody, in particular Pres Uchtdorf !s Conference addresses were aimed at this.

[halconero]

Backpedal....no I fully agree that we are, possibly inadvertently, trying to impose our western culture upon others...after all aren't we the best and most noble culture on Earth? Who else has a Divinely inspired Constituion (which people get about as confused about as they do religion)?

Please tell that was sarcasm.

[Stone holm]

Please tell that was sarcasm.

Duh.

[halconero]

Duh.

Forgivesies? It's the height of cherry season and I'm working an average of 16-18 hour days. My brain is dead and my bowels thoroughly cleaned.

[CV75]

I think the Church is making a conscious effort to turn down the Americanization melody, in particular Pres Uchtdorf !s Conference addresses were aimed at this.

That may be one sliver of a take-away, but keep in mind that people also conflate the collective with the individual (D&C 1:30)! Who do you think Elder Uchtdorf was speaking to? (Hint: The Church has been employing fairly successful diplomatic strategies long before this.)

[Stone holm]

That may be one sliver of a take-away, but keep in mind that people also conflate the collective with the individual (D&C 1:30)! Who do you think Elder Uchtdorf was speaking to? (Hint: The Church has been employing fairly successful diplomatic strategies long before this.)

Who do you think he was speaking to? I have an idea, but it might cause this thread to be locked up.

[Calm]

Forgivesies? It's the height of cherry season and I'm working an average of 16-18 hour days. My brain is dead and my bowels thoroughly cleaned.

My husband hates cherries now because of summer jobs picking cherries. Me...I am in tears no cherries from our tree this year...and it is looking sick and may have caught a disease so its days may be numbered.

Thankfully, there are still the local growers. I have yet to find a store that sells flavourful cherries in years.

[halconero]

My husband hates cherries now because of summer jobs picking cherries. Me...I am in tears no cherries from our tree this year...and it is looking sick and may have caught a disease so its days may be numbered.

Thankfully, there are still the local growers. I have yet to find a store that sells flavourful cherries in years.

That's because all the good stuff gets sent overseas. No joke.

My job is to be a liaison between the temporary workers they bring up from Mexico and the owners, as well as taking care of quality control and shipping at the warehouse. Anything big, firm, or sweet is sent to Hong Kong, the UK, Thailand, France, etc. The less desirable cherries: the ones with less sugar content, less firmness, no stems or more defects are kept for domestic buyers. You haven't seen a good cherry in years because they're all on boats or planes taking a world tour.

[halconero]

Double

Edited July 21, 2013 by halconero

[halconero]

This is a summary of my life at the moment.

Edited July 21, 2013 by halconero

[Calm]

That's because all the good stuff gets sent overseas. No joke.

My job is to be a liaison between the temporary workers they bring up from Mexico and the owners, as well as taking care of quality control and shipping at the warehouse. Anything big, firm, or sweet is sent to Hong Kong, the UK, Thailand, France, etc. The less desirable cherries: the ones with less sugar content, less firmness, no stems or more defects are kept for domestic buyers. You haven't seen a good cherry in years because they're all on boats or planes taking a world tour.

Good to know...will definitely stick to locals then when my own tree doesn't produce enough.